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Can A Charged Wire Be Cooled Internally?  
User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1153 times:

I'm trying to make a magnet out of copper wires, bent into a solenoid. Thin wires under high current get hot and burn out like exposed lightbulbs filaments. A opposed to making the wires thicker (which would be easier and cheaper - not point of thread), if those wires were instead tiny pipes or tubes with some kind of coolant flowing inside, but still charged outside if at all possible, would this tube still create a magnetic field?


The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1150 times:

Quoting Lehpron (Thread starter):
I'm trying to make a magnet out of copper wires

God it has been 3 or 4 years since I took any sort of electronics class..

What type of wire are you using?



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1131 times:

Yes it would, as long as a current flows thru the wire. You can also cool the wire from outside with a non conducting fluid like transformer oil.

User currently offlineKevinl1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 47
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1131 times:

Quoting Lehpron (Thread starter):
would this tube still create a magnetic field?

Temperature isn't the problem. Ever heard of OHMs law? Pass a current through a conductor and it generates HEAT and EMF.

It sounds like you are attempting to pass too many AMPs through too small of a conductor. Your coil winding needs to be much longer, to increase resistance to ground or not pass so much current.

Attempting to cool the windings will not prevent the wire from burning.



474218, Carl, You will be missed.
User currently offlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3823 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1125 times:

Are you trying to build a bomb?

Soren  santahat 



All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently offlineIlikeyyc From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1373 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1125 times:

I don't see why it wouldn't work. When I read the title, I thought you were talking about connecting each end of the wire to a cold surface and cool the wire through conduction. Your idea sounds better. This wire you speak of, though, would have to be large and very expensive. Just use small and flexable copper tubing?

It sounds like you are using too small of a gage of wire. Either increase the wire size (smaller gage number) or add resistance to your circuit to prevent it from overheating.



Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
User currently offlineYeahitsK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1125 times:

I'm almost certain that it would still create a magnet. Wouldn't it be easier though to wrap normal wire around a pipe with some sort of coolant flowing through it than to find some kind of hollow wire to wrap around the pipe? The latter would be difficult to not pinch off and close to flow while creating the solenoid.

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1118 times:

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 3):
It sounds like you are attempting to pass too many AMPs through too small of a conductor. Your coil winding needs to be much longer, to increase resistance to ground or not pass so much current.

Attempting to cool the windings will not prevent the wire from burning

That is why you might want to seek out electric motor wire. Instead of insulation it uses varnish to keep the winding from touching each other.

When a motor burns out the smell you smell is usually the varnish burning off.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineKevinl1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 47
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1116 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
When a motor burns out the smell you smell is usually the varnish burning off.

Toxic as all hell. Here is where the "Pollution Free Electric Car" ends. The operation of an electric motor also generates Ozone.

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 5):
It sounds like you are using too small of a gage of wire. Either increase the wire size (smaller gage number) or add resistance to your circuit to prevent it from overheating.

 checkmark 

You're not supposed to let the smoke out of the wire.



474218, Carl, You will be missed.
User currently offlineBhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1080 times:

If you afford it, use wire with more available electrons..like gold or silver...and use rare earth materials for the core so that you will not have to apply as much current for the gauss fields that you want..is AC an option?

Cheers



Carpe Pices
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 16
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1061 times:

Quoting Bhill (Reply 9):

Bhill, I'm curious if the current density across the cross section of the wire is constant, or is it higher near the circumference (surface). If I remember, this is frequency dependent, right ?


Thanks.


User currently offlineSprout5199 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1855 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days ago) and read 1043 times:

Quoting Comorin (Reply 10):
Bhill, I'm curious if the current density across the cross section of the wire is constant, or is it higher near the circumference (surface). If I remember, this is frequency dependent, right

If I remember right, the higher the freq the more surface effect you have. its been a long time.

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 5):
Either increase the wire size (smaller gage number) or add resistance to your circuit to prevent it from overheating.

Increasing the size will help but increases the weight. if you add resistance (i.e. add a resistor)you reduce the current and reduce the magnetic field. If IRC if you want a strong magnetic field increase the number of turns, also to "focus" the field use a ferrous metal(a 16 penny nail works good) and wrap the wire around it. Most solenoids, relays and such use this to work.

Also if you use a hollow wire it might kink.

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 3):
Attempting to cool the windings will not prevent the wire from burning

well it would keep it from burning, but soon you would overcome the cooling effect and burn thru, IRC superconductors have to be at a really low temp, like -50F to work.

I have been out of school too long to remember more on magnetic theory, cant even remember if its left hand or right hand rule.

Dan in Jupiter


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days ago) and read 1042 times:

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 8):
The operation of an electric motor also generates Ozone.

And to think that we have been told that man has been destroying the Ozone layer.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21485 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1027 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
And to think that we have been told that man has been destroying the Ozone layer.

Ozone near the surface is useless for the ozone layer at altitude, but it is rather problematic, even toxic, for living organisms.


User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1005 times:

What I am trying to make is an ionic jet engine I got the idea from the very first commercials of the Ionic Breeze air purifier from spring 2001. That said, the air purifier used positive and negative plates to accelerate flow. There is more to it than that but I felt this flow was moving too slowly to propel anything, so a magnetic field should increase the mass flow rate by further accelerating the charge particles before their charge gets canceled by the negative plate. This was never intended for space applications (it could though), just within the atmosphere.

Now you know the application, does this help any?

Submerging the coils in coolant would make it easy but air cannot pass through the solenoid, plus this whole thing has to be light.

For soem reason, I think that increasing resistance increases the heat interaction out. Unless I can dump this heat back into the flow as a type of electric-afterbuner, I do not see the point of adding a resistor other than reducing the current, which I need to accelerate the flow at all. There has got to be another way.



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineKevinl1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 47
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 990 times:

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 14):
For soem reason, I think that increasing resistance increases the heat interaction out

OHM's Law!
E=I/R E=Volts I=Amps R=Resistance
Resistance makes heat. Volts are like pressure, Amps are volume.

EMF Rule of thumb:
Make a  thumbsup  with your hand.
Your fingers point in the direction of current flow and the Thumb points in the direction of EMF positive field.

It sounds like you have a mis-match between wire guage, circuit resistance and amount of current flow. You can put 10,000 volts through a 18 guage wire @ .01ma, but not vice versa. You need to determine how much amperage your windings can handle and use Ohms law to calc. volts.



474218, Carl, You will be missed.
User currently offlineSprout5199 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1855 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 969 times:

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 15):
EMF Rule of thumb:
Make a with your hand.
Your fingers point in the direction of current flow and the Thumb points in the direction of EMF positive field

is it the right or left? I think its the left hand.

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 14):
This was never intended for space applications (it could though), just within the atmosphere

look here. http://nmp.jpl.nasa.gov/ds1/tech/sep.html

Dan in Jupiter


User currently offlineKevinl1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 47
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 955 times:

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 16):
is it the right or left? I think its the left hand.

 bigthumbsup 
Yeah......Oops! Important detail!

Consider it as what Pe@rson calls "the other woman".



474218, Carl, You will be missed.
User currently offlineSprout5199 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1855 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 951 times:

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 17):
Consider it as what Pe@rson calls "the other woman".

Well... since Im divorced and not seeing anyone I get to double date.  Smile

Dan in Jupiter


User currently offlineYeahitsK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 947 times:

Let's discuss this from a chemistry standpoint. From the other thread you linked, you wish to ionize air to move through your coil. The amount of energy it would take to ionize air would make this impractical as is. Air is 78% diatomic nitrogen (N2), and about 21% diatomic oxygen (O2). The diatomic configuration is extremely stable and not easily dissociated to produce ions. The screen idea you propose may impart a charge to impurities in the air, but not the air itself. If you truly want to use air, then you are going to have to incorporate an ozone generator as it is the only practical way of imparting any sort of charge to the native atmosphere.

The only other thing I can think of is to somehow exploit water vapor in the air. Water is a polar molecule that will react to a magnetic field. I don't think it is present in sufficient volumes to be practical either.

There are two major practical consideration that you would have to overcome. I know all about them from working with mass spectrometers. 1st problem- Ions and the gas phase are not happy partners. Ozone, for instance, will rapidly dissipate due to interactions with other normal atmospheric molecules and other ozone particles. It can't be stored, if you want to use it you have to generate it at the time of use due to its extremely short life span. In mass spectrometry, we create ions and fly them down a tube by manipulating voltages at "lenses" along the tube until they hit a detector where they are measured. The key to making this work is that the tube is held under a vaccuum! Otherwise they would just collide with other molecules and lose any of the charge energy we had imparted to them. This would occur as you attempted to accelerate your ions through the magnetic coil. The more power you apply, the harder they will hit.

The second consideration is in accelerating ions through the tube. How will you manipulate them such that they get through the tube and aren't attracted to the charge in the coil itself? They aren't just going to be attracted to the other side. This is going to take very precise control of the charge in the coil.

I suggest you read up on a field called Ion Mobility as it is the closest thing I can think of out there right now similar to what you want to do. When you check in at the airport and they screen your baggage at the airport for explosives, they are using Ion Mobility detectors. It is a form of mass spectrometer that works at atmospheric pressure, but ironically enough utilizes
stable diatomic nitrogen in the flight tube. This guy is considered the leader in
the field, so reading his papers and looking at the technology he has developed might give you some clues to making this work:

http://newsinfo.iu.edu/sb/page/normal/759.html


User currently offlineKevinl1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 47
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 942 times:

Quoting YeahitsK (Reply 19):
1st problem- Ions and the gas phase are not happy partners. Ozone, for instance, will rapidly dissipate due to interactions with other normal atmospheric molecules and other ozone particles. It can't be stored, if you want to use it you have to generate it at the time of use due to its extremely short life span. In mass spectrometry, we create ions and fly them down a tube by manipulating voltages at "lenses" along the tube until they hit a detector where they are measured. The key to making this work is that the tube is held under a vaccuum! Otherwise they would just collide with other molecules and lose any of the charge energy we had imparted to them. This would occur as you attempted to accelerate your ions through the magnetic coil. The more power you apply, the harder they will hit.

I had that same problem trying to build a Flux Capacitor. It cost me over 10K in parts from Farnells and all it ever did was burn up the wiring harness in my Delorean.

I hope Lehpron hasn't spent too much on cannibalizing Ionic Breezes.



474218, Carl, You will be missed.
User currently offlineSprout5199 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1855 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 937 times:

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 20):
I had that same problem trying to build a Flux Capacitor. It cost me over 10K in parts from Farnells and all it ever did was burn up the wiring harness in my Delorean.

You should have used pinball parts(i think thats the quote).

Dan in Jupiter


User currently offlineBhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 934 times:

Lephron...If you get the frequency high enough..the current does not travel through the wire as ON the wire....skin effect..yep, capacitence.radar wave guides work the same way...Ohms law does not really matter..sort of...imaginary numbers come into play...still, if it is PLASMA you want, use voltage, not current...problem is..how you gonna contain it? Read up on Tesla....


Carpe Pices
User currently offlineYeahitsK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 931 times:

Quoting Bhill (Reply 22):
problem is..how you gonna contain it?

Let alone turn it into thrust. I'm thinking the energy input of this system is going to far exceed output. Interesting idea though Lehpron...


User currently offlineSprout5199 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1855 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 931 times:

Quoting Bhill (Reply 22):
radar wave guides work the same way...

IIRC wave guides do what the name says, guide the waves, I remember in school(navy electronics) they had some wave guide made of wire,(a square made of wire connected to another square....)an instructor said had problems with SWR---ran through an officers stateroom, he would hang his coat hangers on it. not good at 1 megawatt

Dan in Jupiter


25 Bhill : hmmm...Lephron...what kind of EMV's are you looking for? MRI's do some of the same things.....hell, why use wires at all? Keep in mind that converting
26 Bhill : PS...waveguides are like "pipes"...does not matter...pun intended...just like H2O..excite the electrons enough....and you will be AMAZED at what might
27 Lehpron : There is no plasma within this solenoid, this engine is not supposed to have a stream of charged particles out the back either. My engine idea is not
28 Post contains links YeahitsK : F=MA, not F=MV. According to this equation, you are going to have to have a lot of charge density (M), or tremendous acceleration to generate signifi
29 Post contains links YeahitsK : Hey Lehpron, just curious- do you have to build a working model of this thing for a class? I agree with Bhill that our technology isn't able to make t
30 Post contains images Lehpron : That was what I meant with the equation: that (kg/s)*(m/s) = N. At first I thought all of the air would be charged and that 'air' was moving through.
31 Post contains links and images YeahitsK : This is what theory predicts, but it isn't so true in practice. The movement of ions in a field is governed by the mass/charge ratio of the ions. The
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