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CA Execution Delayed As Doctors Walked Out  
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1744 times:

Another first for California.

The execution of a convicted killer was postponed after two anesthesiologists refused for ethical reasons to take part in the execution. The killer attacked a killed a 17 year old girl with a hammer, then stabbed her and left her to die half naked in a vineyard.

The question here is why these doctors accepted the assignment and then backed out at the last minute? Making a political statement?

85 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1743 times:

All the more reason a firing squads should be brought back . . . . I'll volunteer.

User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 45
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1735 times:

My heroes.  cloudnine  First, do no harm.


Up, up and away!
User currently offlineChrisjake From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 863 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1727 times:

damn......and let the condemned have more time to sit there and think about his inevitable end.

now THATS cruel and inhuman punishment!

[Edited 2006-02-22 01:39:53]


Well nothing's dead down here, just a little tired
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1715 times:

Interesting.

I wonder if they were working under contract to the state of California, and if so what actions the state can take to remedy their breach of contract.


User currently offlineGilligan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1715 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
I'll volunteer.

Ditto!!

Quoting Redngold (Reply 2):
First, do no harm.

Executing this loser would not be doing any harm.


User currently offlineStuckinMAF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1687 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
All the more reason a firing squads should be brought back . . . . I'll volunteer.

 checkmark  Me, too! I'll even cast the bullets and load the cartridges for it!

I'm a little surprised Logan22L hasn't checked in on this thread yet though, I think he opposes the DP. Maybe he's busy this evening.

Quoting Chrisjake (Reply 3):
now THATS cruel and inhuman punishment!

No, THIS is "cruel and unusual" (or "inhuman" if you want to put it that way) punishment:

Quoting AirCop (Thread starter):
The killer attacked a killed a 17 year old girl with a hammer, then stabbed her and left her to die half naked in a vineyard.


User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1678 times:

They should just "git 'er dun..."

I'd go on for the firing squad... It's not cruel and unusual to execute people like this, what is cruel and unusual is beating a girl to death and then leaving her half naked in a vinyard.

I have no sympathy for this man, the sooner they find some willing doctors to participate the better...

- Neil


User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1653 times:

Quoting AirCop (Thread starter):
Another first for California.

The execution of a convicted killer was postponed after two anesthesiologists refused for ethical reasons to take part in the execution. The killer attacked a killed a 17 year old girl with a hammer, then stabbed her and left her to die half naked in a vineyard.

The State of California has no bearing on the ethical reasoning of doctors. Their protest does bring up an important point about the ethics of medicine. The Hippocratic Oath stresses not doing harm and to save lives, no matter who the person is. I think this case is a great debate for Medical Ethics, and NOT politics. Please leave "this is another example of the liberal left" out of this.



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1648 times:

More proof that California is the most screwed up place. Where does it end?

Quoting Redngold (Reply 2):
My heroes. First, do no harm.

Too bad Michael Morales didn't take this same oath to do no harm. Maybe he wouldn't have beat Teri Winchell with a hammer.

Please leave justice up to us, if it was up to all the bleeding heart liberals they would open all the jail cells of convicted killers and let them go free.


User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1644 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 9):
Please leave justice up to us, if it was up to all the bleeding heart liberals they would open all the jail cells of convicted killers and let them go free.

You know what? I bet you would find many conservative doctors that agreed with these doctors. Again conservatives are using this to paint broad brush-stroke generalizations. From a Medical Ethics standpoint, they have a point; Politics be damned. Medical professionals dont answer to politicians or their political party, only to themselves and their conscience.

[Edited 2006-02-22 06:43:39]


"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5972 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1635 times:

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 8):
The State of California has no bearing on the ethical reasoning of doctors. Their protest does bring up an important point about the ethics of medicine. The Hippocratic Oath stresses not doing harm and to save lives, no matter who the person is. I think this case is a great debate for Medical Ethics, and NOT politics. Please leave "this is another example of the liberal left" out of this.

Actually, a lot of Liberals are having a fit with the same kind of issue: Pharmacists who refuses to hand out birth control pills & the morning-after pill, on either ethical or religious grounds.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21420 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1624 times:

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 11):
Pharmacists who refuses to hand out birth control pills & the morning-after pill, on either ethical or religious grounds.

They have no right not to give out medications prescribed by a doctor. To do so would let their religious beliefs impact the lives of others, and that's not acceptable. Either they give out the proper medication, or they find someone else who will, and cover any extra cost.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFlyingbabydoc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1619 times:

Quoting AirCop (Thread starter):
The question here is why these doctors accepted the assignment and then backed out at the last minute? Making a political statement?

We do take an oath (Hypocrates oath, some people call it hypocritical oath) and swear to do no harm, nor to use our knowledge against another human being (torture, executions, etc.). I believe there is a huge ethical problem there. Like ANCflyer said, bring on the death squad. Doctors aren't supposed to assist in murder.

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 10):
Medical professionals dont answer to politicians or their political party, only to themselves and their conscience.

I wish that was true. Good doctors will do exactly that. But there are always the rotten fruits amidst...

Alex


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1607 times:

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 10):
You know what? I bet you would find many conservative doctors that agreed with these doctors. Again conservatives are using this to paint broad brush-stroke generalizations. From a Medical Ethics standpoint, they have a point; Politics be damned. Medical professionals dont answer to politicians or their political party, only to themselves and their conscience.

We don't need doctors to carry out sentence. I like ANCFlyer's idea.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
All the more reason a firing squads should be brought back . . . . I'll volunteer.

Actually I like the electric chair or as someone said at Ted Bundy's execution. "Save electricity, use a ROPE!"  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineAR1300 From Argentina, joined Feb 2005, 1740 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1602 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
All the more reason a firing squads should be brought back .

No.Don't waste bullets.
we should use our own hands and choke the bastard to death.
Or torture him like he did to that girl.



Mike



They don't call us Continental for nothing.
User currently offlineB707321C From Norway, joined Sep 2005, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1592 times:

This is silly, using so much energy and effort regarding inhuman punishments. Just forget about the death penalty. Its time to move on, don’t hang on the old fashion attitudes and believes. Trying to improve the punishment by humane methods is just beyond me, it is still an unacceptable punishment.

User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19183 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1588 times:

Quoting B707321C (Reply 16):
This is silly, using so much energy and effort regarding inhuman punishments. Just forget about the death penalty. Its time to move on, don’t hang on the old fashion attitudes and believes. Trying to improve the punishment by humane methods is just beyond me, it is still an unacceptable punishment.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. However, you must realise that the USA is uncivilised in this regard: it is in the top 3 countries in the world in terms of the number of executions. Can you guess which the other two are? Saudi Arabia and China. Rather telling, I think.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3906 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1559 times:

Quoting AirCop (Thread starter):
The killer attacked a killed a 17 year old girl with a hammer, then stabbed her and left her to die half naked in a vineyard.

So he killed her with a hammer and THEN stabbed her to death?

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 13):
swear to do no harm, nor to use our knowledge against another human being (torture, executions, etc.).

Reading this reminded me of that kid who was beaten to death in Florida by jail guards, with a nurse watching by and helping to prolong his suffering... sad, really.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1517 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
They have no right not to give out medications prescribed by a doctor. To do so would let their religious beliefs impact the lives of others, and that's not acceptable. Either they give out the proper medication, or they find someone else who will, and cover any extra cost.

I agree with this. Although the problem with pharmacists (and even doctors) in Canada refusing to prescribe or distribute medication is that some of these medications (specifically the morning after pill) are extremely time sensitive. If the medication is legal, non addictive and appropriate medically to the case, the doctor should be required to prescribe, and the pharmacist to distribute.

Quoting B707321C (Reply 16):
This is silly, using so much energy and effort regarding inhuman punishments. Just forget about the death penalty. Its time to move on, don’t hang on the old fashion attitudes and believes. Trying to improve the punishment by humane methods is just beyond me, it is still an unacceptable punishment.

I agree, why try to make it humaine? It should be done the same way they did it to the victim. Once someone kills and then leave a young girl half naked in a field, I don't really care about the hummanity of the punishment. Where is the hummanity in the pain and suffering of the girls family? The guy chose to kill her, he knew he could get death for it, it would be silly not to impose the punishment he knew he could get.

- Neil


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1511 times:

A strange affair alltogether. The man is a convicted murderer. He was sentenced to death --- 25 / twenty-five years ago ! Now it is decided to execute him, suppose he may have become ailing when aging. And people discuss about minor technicalities. That he would have been beheaded or hanged in many or maybe most countries is no excuse; in Western Europe he now would be released as having served life sufficiently. But people in this case might rather make their minds UP and either DO execute or DO pardon. His lawyers ? clear, they hope for at least a pardon if not a final release of their customer.

[Edited 2006-02-22 16:36:06]

User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1501 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 20):
That he would have been beheaded or hanged in many or maybe most countries is no excuse; in Western Europe he now would be released as having served life sufficiently. But people in this case might rather make their minds UP and either DO execute or DO pardon. His lawyers ? clear, they hope for at least a pardon if not a final release of their customer.

Maybe he should have murdered and maimed in Europe in the first place.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1497 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
Reading this reminded me of that kid who was beaten to death in Florida by jail guards, with a nurse watching by and helping to prolong his suffering...

 sarcastic  You need to re-read the article and re-read the cause of death - cause apparently your comprehension failed you miserably first time through.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 20):
The man is a convicted murderer. He was sentenced to death --- 25 / twenty-five years ago ! Now it is decided to execute him, suppose he may have become ailing when aging. And people discuss about minor technicalities.

It's the ridiculously long and arduous appeals process for death penalty convictions in this country. Antiquated appeals process needs to be reworked. Sentences need to be carried out within 24 months of conviction.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1493 times:

What about calling in Dr. Jack! He could work off his sentence and do some good for man kind both at the same time.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1489 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 23):
What about calling in Dr. Jack! He could work off his sentence and do some good for man kind both at the same time.

 idea  Excellent!


25 Post contains links Dougloid : I suppose it feeds your sense of self importance to vent such flatulence there but surely an astute student of all things American MUST know that the
26 ME AVN FAN : well, the crime-rate in European countries is NOT higher but generally LOWER than in the USA. So much for the "teaching-effect" of executionary. And
27 ME AVN FAN : not really, as they A) got elected by the people, and B) in many cases, people even voted directly in favour of the abolition of the death penalty bu
28 Cfalk : I agree. So why should a doctor perform the procedure? How complicated can it be? I mean, just stick him in the ass and give him a 100 times the leth
29 Post contains images Logan22L : to both. I've seen the word "uncivilized" used a few times here. I think that the US officials who do carry out executions realize that this is an is
30 NIKV69 : That is all well and good in Norway and Wales but here we believe in Hang em High and an eye for an eye. We have the best justice system in the world
31 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Or Germany where he'll be out in 20 years roaming the streets again,.
32 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : it begins to become clear why the USA and Saudi Arabia are such staunch allies, even having the USA tolerating the Saudis causing havoc over some dra
33 Luv2fly : Well if want to live next door to some animal who served there time be my guest, the only animal I want living with me is my dog, her I can trust. Me
34 Logan22L : I can almost hear "God Bless America" when I read this. Fact is, I have no desire to treat felons like jaywalkers or for them to "enjoy the rest of t
35 Post contains images ANCFlyer : attempt failing . . . I'm not biting. See me again when we start stoning women, chopping off hands, doing female circumsion, etc. Until then, you're
36 StuckinMAF : Is locking a human up in a cell for their entire remaining life not somehow "cruel and unusual"? If it were me, and given the choice, I would gladly c
37 ME AVN FAN : is that happening soon ?
38 Logan22L : Interesting. I would have guessed it was more of an "eye for an eye" reasoning, but that's why it's better to discuss than to assume. Without getting
39 N1120A : Apparently you didn't bother to read the whole article. Their beef is that they would have to resedate if the prisoner woke up while under the effect
40 B707321C : Seems to me you are not ready to craw out from the stone age not just yet. You will but it will take some time. You see the difference is that our sy
41 Post contains images Logan22L : I suppose it could happen if someone dropped a 55-gallon drum of it on your head. Potassium cyanide works much better.
42 Post contains links and images N1120A : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_chloride http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_injection Perhaps it works better, but this is what they use (OD
43 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Fertilizer? And you won't need a 55 gallon drum . . . LOL
44 Post contains images Logan22L : Yeah, I know it screws up the electrolyte balance and all. I thought you were making reference to the Jim Jones Kool-Aid thread.
45 N1120A : Oh, no, I was talking about the sickness of the death penalties. Remember that guy down in San Diego who said his followers could be transported off
46 Post contains images Logan22L : I thought that was Karen Ann Quinlan.
47 Post contains images MDorBust : Yes, just yesterday I was haveing such a terrible time getting my beloveds chastity belt off that I had to summon forth ye ol blacksmith. Lo and beho
48 Post contains images StuckinMAF : I want some of what he's smoking!
49 NIKV69 : I won't even respond to this ridicoulous liberal propaganda. Well we are not killing people, we are carrying out a state mandated sentence that a jur
50 Post contains images Logan22L :
51 N1120A : We made a conscious decision to put people in jail, only to turn a blind eye when they are beaten and raped. And that has nothing to do with death ro
52 MDorBust : I suppose you are referring to the DP as murder here... In which case you are wrong, and you probably know it too. Tsk Tsk. For shame knowingly makei
53 Redngold : Who are we to cause the death of another human, by brutal or "humane" methods, by bloody rage or "in the name of justice?" Murder is murder. Lock him
54 ME AVN FAN : oh, I see. Normal common-sense considerations are "liberal propaganda" in the view of US right-wingers . - Liberal: YES Propaganda: NO
55 NIKV69 : Normal and common sense? By saying the USA is tolerating the killing of innocent people over the cartoons? By saying we are medieval? This is not com
56 ME AVN FAN : What the USA DID tolerate was that its ally in Riyadh "arranged" that demonstrations in various places became violent. I do NOT claim that either sid
57 Gkirk : The Death penalty puts the USA on the same level as Saudi Arabia IMHO.
58 Post contains images NeilYYZ : And how exactly does that make you any better? The DP is not murder, murder is the unsanctioned killing of another person, the DP is sanctioned by th
59 Post contains links Cfalk : Quoting N1120A (Reply 51): And that has nothing to do with death row. On that front, we made a conscious decision to murder people. Murder: the crime
60 NeilYYZ : It happened unfortunatly in Canada, although that was before the day's of DNA and such. Personally, I would like to see it come back, although I thin
61 ME AVN FAN : to turn your question around, do the harsh sentences of Saudi Arabian and Chinese courts make Saudi Arabian and Chinese citizens any worse ? Does the
62 Pyrex : Actually I never read it in the first place, I just saw the footage on the news and it was sickening enough? What was the cause of death, then? Appar
63 Mir : What price for order? I think that it's a bit too high in Saudi Arabia's case. -Mir
64 Cfalk : I agree with that. The point is that capital punishment can be a deterrant, in spite of what a lot of liberals say. Arabs are not a peaceful bunch, b
65 Dougloid : That's not really correct at all. The key to crime rates is cultural conflict. The more cultural unanimity in a country, the lower the crime rate. Th
66 ME AVN FAN : unfortunately have to agree in this - another point is that the basic problem is different. Whether we keep criminals of a certain "level" behind bar
67 Legend500 : Empirically disproven and counter-factual. If the death penalty deters crime, why does Canada have such a low homicide rate? Or Germany? Or Britian?
68 MDorBust : Please provide said empirical evidence and facts. Comparissons of crime rates between different cultures in non-sensical in an attempt to prove the f
69 NIKV69 : It's comments like these, (based on things that were not said and assumptions) that are par for the course for the anti-death penalty argument. They
70 Redngold : Last time I checked, both Homicide and Murder were punishable under the law. There are, however, circumstances in which homicide is ruled justifiable
71 MDorBust : Criminally negligent homicide is punishable. Vehicular homicide is punishable. Homicide itself is not. It's simply a definition of an act. Mens Rea i
72 DrDeke : ROFL! Stop spinning everything? That's a good idea! So you're saying that because a jury has handed down a sentence, we are not actually killing when
73 GuitrThree : Well, many doctors do perform abortions... I would tend to believe that ending the life of an unborn child would, umm, "cause them harm," or, maybe e
74 NIKV69 : You should of not cut out of Social Studies in High School junior. Learn about our government. On the state and federal level. If a state passes the
75 DrDeke : Uhh... I'm afraid that sentence doesn't put you in much of a position to tell me which subjects I shouldn't "of" skipped in high school. I know that.
76 Post contains links GuitrThree : Quoting DrDeke (Reply 75): You are the only person I have ever heard claim that purposely causing someone to die is not killing Well, then I guess you
77 Post contains images Redngold : Enlighten me as to how ...if such legal concepts exist. Never mind. Legal and moral are often two different things.
78 NIKV69 : Talk to some victim's loved ones, maybe you would. Of course he hasn't, then his argument is shot out of the water.
79 MDorBust : No offense intended, but most americans don't know anythng about the legal system that they live under. I recomend that everyone take whatever legal
80 Redngold : Instead of pontificating and postulating about knowledge and courses that I may or may not have, just answer the question. What makes execution of a
81 MDorBust : It is not justifiable by self defense. You are the one that said it was not me. I've already explained it. Re-read 71. No mens rea = not a criminal a
82 Mir : No, it's not justice, it's REVENGE. Unless, of course, you believe in the eye for an eye theory of justice. But I'd like to think that the civilised
83 B707321C : Why do this argument hold no water?, Please explain.
84 Pyrex : My irony was simply to point out an inconsistency in the thread opener.
85 Post contains images Scbriml : The death penalty is many things. A deterrent is not one of them. I don't believe anyone but the most ardent supporters of State-sponsored murder act
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