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Stopping School Shootings In The US  
User currently offlineAAden From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 835 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2329 times:

lets get some opinons
since their seems to be no way to predict them, how do we prevent them?

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7413 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2319 times:
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Quoting AAden (Thread starter):
since their seems to be no way to predict them, how do we prevent them?

Well, I would say profile potential offenders, but that would be too much of a hotbutton issue.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4125 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2317 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
Well, I would say profile potential offenders, but that would be too much of a hotbutton issue.

The problem is that it's too hard when you are dealing with teenagers. A good way to start is making uniforms mandatory in public schools. Teenagers judge others on things like clothes, and if that factor were equalized you will see a decline in the "popular people" ridiculing the "outcasts."

But as long as smart ass parents exist that resist this (yes its not only the kids), this will never happen.

[Edited 2006-02-26 08:25:35]


"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4897 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2300 times:

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 2):
Teenagers judge others on things like clothes, and if that factor were equalized you will see a decline in the "popular people" ridiculing the "outcasts."

Not a bad idea. But until guns are made harder to get hold of for all Americans this will continue. Thanks to the NRA and other pro-gun entities this is a monumental task,

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2295 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 3):
But until guns are made harder to get hold of for all Americans this will continue.

Bull-Explative deleted redflag  redflag  redflag  redflag  redflag 

It has been illegal for minors to aquire firearms for many decade now.

In fact one only has to go back 30 years, and kids could bring them to school. It was not unheard of in more remote communities for part of a kids job to be on the walk home from shool to plug a rabbit or two for supper.
Hell in the 1980's there where still high school shooting teams around.

I think that a more relevant corelation is videogames. As they have becom more lifelike we have seen a cooresponding increase in violent behavior. But that isn't the cause.It is the fact that these kids don't have to do any sort of meaningful work, or chores, so their lives have no purpose other then eating fritos in front of the X-box. So the don't learn any values.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineJpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2293 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):

Well, I would say profile potential offenders, but that would be too much of a hotbutton issue.

Awful idea. What kind of uniform 'profile' do you think they have?



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineS12PPL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2291 times:

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 5):
Awful idea. What kind of uniform 'profile' do you think they have?

It isn't obvious??? Look at Kip Kinkle. The kids that did Columbine, etc. etc. etc. etc.

All those kids were picked on constantly from the time they were little. They transformed into loners, plotting how to get revenge. They are not hard to spot.

There was a kid at my high school who was exactly like Kinkle....which happened 40 miles away from where I live. We all knew he'd be the one to do it at our school...and he almost did. He made the dumb mistake of telling a kid that bullied him he was gonna kill him, and they found a list of kids he was gonna go after, and plans to do it. He was removed from our school, and taken care of by the propper authorities.


To say you can't spot them is ridiculous. They stick out.


User currently offlineJpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2282 times:

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 6):
All those kids were picked on constantly from the time they were little. They transformed into loners, plotting how to get revenge. They are not hard to spot.

Um.....ok, thats a common background of potential problemed students, but not the only one. And theres only been, oh, millions of people who have been picked on and been loners at some point in their life. Out of that, how many killers do we have? Use your head and think about this in a sensible manner.

The real question is, what the hell do you logistically plan to do with 'profiling potential offenders'. What the hell would you do? What the hell could you do? Further embarrass any kid who looks like they're going through a rough time?

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 6):
There was a kid at my high school

There was a threat like this at my middle school, girl a grade younger than me. , and fit none of your shooter blueprint.

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 6):
To say you can't spot them is ridiculous. They stick out.

Hindsight is 20/20. Do you have any idea of the miicroscopic percentage of teens you mentioned would consider violent action? What do you propose, S12? A 'most likely to shoot up the school' section in the yearbook? I am not the one being ridiculous.

[Edited 2006-02-26 10:32:59]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12573 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2276 times:
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Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
It has been illegal for minors to aquire firearms for many decade now.

And has the legality of that stopped kids from committing such shootings? No! I wonder why - maybe it's because guns are just so easy to come by in America? Little Johnny can't legally own a gun, but it's not a probelm because Ma and Pa have a veritable arsenal at home anyway. sarcastic 

Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
I think that a more relevant corelation is videogames.

You know, a lot of the rest of the World's kids play the same games. The difference being that in a significant number of the World's countries little Johnny can't walk in to Ma and Pa's bedroom and find the real thing.

Most of the BS comes from the pro-gun lobby. Remember kids, it's not guns that kill people. rotfl 

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 6):
To say you can't spot them is ridiculous. They stick out.

If it was that easy it would have never happened would it?



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineLegend500 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 144 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2260 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 3):
But until guns are made harder to get hold of for all Americans this will continue. Thanks to the NRA and other pro-gun entities this is a monumental task,

Last I checked, Canada had a higher per-capita gun ownership than the US. Canada and has a much lower gun crime rate. So there is no correlation - guns are not the problem.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
I think that a more relevant corelation is videogames. As they have becom more lifelike we have seen a cooresponding increase in violent behavior. But that isn't the cause.It is the fact that these kids don't have to do any sort of meaningful work, or chores, so their lives have no purpose other then eating fritos in front of the X-box. So the don't learn any values.

Videogames are not nearly as violent as the wars children see on the nightly news any night. I doubt violent behavior has signifigantly increaced, just the number of people and the reportage of violent offences have gone up. Hanging blacks from trees in the 50s was far more violent than a schoolyard fight or some videogame. Blaming a game for violence is like blaming your car when you run out of gas...you're angry at the wrong thing. See my 50s example above for an idea of the superior values taught when kids had "meaningful work" (note that the "lazy kids phenomena " is not new...I recall Marcus Arelius lamenting this fact in the second century).

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 6):
All those kids were picked on constantly from the time they were little. They transformed into loners, plotting how to get revenge. They are not hard to spot.



Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 7):
Do you have any idea of the miicroscopic percentage of teens you mentioned would consider violent action?

Even a microscopic percentage, say 1% of the ten million schoolchildren we may have in this country of 300 million, is a lot. 100,000 possible killers every year. And it's possible bullying does have an enraging effect on students. S12PPL seems closer to the cause than most.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 8):
And has the legality of that stopped kids from committing such shootings? No! I wonder why - maybe it's because guns are just so easy to come by in America? Little Johnny can't legally own a gun, but it's not a probelm because Ma and Pa have a veritable arsenal at home anyway.

Or maybe another country with vast gun ownership. Say the crime ridden streets of Switzerland? And under Swiss law, Ma and Pa really do have an arsenal at home....
...or maybe guns do cause violence. If we took all the guns away from jihadist groups in Darfur, I'm sure the millenia of disagreement and hatred between Christians and Muslims in the country will disappear.  sarcastic 

Sorry to be sarcastic, but that is what's being implied...


User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3506 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2247 times:

It all comes down to parenting. It's not the schools or their lack of uniforms, it's not the video games, and it's not Marylin Manson. No kid who has their parents actively engaged in their lives is going to go shoot up a school. I grew up with plenty of violent movies and video games, profane music, yadayadayada, but you don't even see me at the firing range, let alone shooting up a school. Kids who have parents that are involved with their lives (involved, not controling) and who keep tabs on what they're exposed to so that they can discuss violence, sex, drugs, etc. are going to turn out just fine. I still can't believe that people think that assimilating kids with school uniforms and the like is going to fix the problem.


Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineMolykote From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1340 posts, RR: 29
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2236 times:
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Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
It all comes down to parenting. It's not the schools or their lack of uniforms, it's not the video games, and it's not Marylin Manson. No kid who has their parents actively engaged in their lives is going to go shoot up a school. I grew up with plenty of violent movies and video games, profane music, yadayadayada, but you don't even see me at the firing range, let alone shooting up a school. Kids who have parents that are involved with their lives (involved, not controling) and who keep tabs on what they're exposed to so that they can discuss violence, sex, drugs, etc. are going to turn out just fine. I still can't believe that people think that assimilating kids with school uniforms and the like is going to fix the problem.

Agreed....

Listen to Quadrophenia by The Who and tell me that the same these feelings of frustration, fitting in, deparation, etc are anything new to kids this age. This is an album more than 30 years old (1973) and covers all the bases of sex, drugs, violence, social disfunction, gangs, and teenage confusion/emotion.

I freely admit that I didn't experience the 60s or 70s.

Edit to add link to those not familiar with the album:
http://www.quadrophenia.net

[Edited 2006-02-26 12:10:11]


Speedtape - The asprin of aviation!
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2213 times:

Clearly parenting actions or inactions are a factor in many of these cases. Many parents do not do their job as parents to guide their children due to a number of factors too numerous to get into here. The schools are the next closest group and community to these children.

All schools need to try to find ways to defuse the bad beheavor that sometimes leads to the extreme violence that occurs in reaction. We should look to the workplaces all of the students will eventually end up in for some approaches and to prepare them for that. We need to encourage strong policies against personal and sexual harassment. There needs to be well defined beheavor codes to discourage anti-social beheavors that trigger reactions. We may need to have reasonable appearance codes (not uniforms) to discourage class differences. Classes should include discussions of differences between people and how to deal with coflicts in an adult way. Athletes must be held to strict standards of beheavor and not shown favoritism in grades or disipline for bad beheavor. Their coaches must also encourage sportsman like beheavors, not treat them like gods. Many students start to realize at school age the mental and psycholgical problems they may face. Students need access to counsuling to be able to get help with those problems or to deal with the problems in their home lives.
I believe some of what I suggest above isn't particularly costly and indeed could save money in many districts due to the reductions of costs to resolve problems.


User currently offlineNancy From United States of America, joined May 2004, 467 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2197 times:

How would you profile kids? The kids who do it are mostly the ones who have been harassed and assaulted by other students. Will you tell children who have already been the victim crimes that now they they can't come to school because you think they're dangerous? There are plenty of school administrators and teachers though that think kids who are different "bring it on themselves" and have no sympathy for the geeks and the nerds. We all had a teacher who kissed up to the popular kids like they were still waiting for an invite to the prom. That type of behavior makes me sick. Those people would have no problem kicking the underdogs of the school right out so they could have "appropriate" students only. If I see a kid being left out I will go over and start talking to him, and usually another kid or two will come over and start talking too. We need to teach all kids that even if people are different or you don't approve of them for some reason it is never okay to call them names or assault them. The schools need to change their approach to these things and engage in preventative actions such as teaching positive social skills to all students and we can prevent many of the problems in schools. Parents also need to teach their kids to be tolerant and to work with others.

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2186 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 3):
But until guns are made harder to get hold of for all Americans this will continue. Thanks to the NRA and other pro-gun entities this is a monumental task,

Well, well, well - made it all the way to reply #3 before the "gun control and anti-NRA lobby" piped up . . . I was surprised . . . I suspected it to be at least reply #1.  sarcastic 

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 8):
Remember kids, it's not guns that kill people.

Thats right, Guns don't kill people, People kill People. Don't forget that.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 13):
Clearly parenting actions or inactions are a factor in many of these cases. Many parents do not do their job as parents to guide their children due to a number of factors too numerous to get into here.

 checkmark 


User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2175 times:

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 2):
A good way to start is making uniforms mandatory in public schools.

I agree completely...but, once you do that, you have a freedom of expression issue on your hands. Depending on how high up the issue went in the court, it would mostly likely be ruled unconstitutional.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 8):
Little Johnny can't legally own a gun, but it's not a probelm because Ma and Pa have a veritable arsenal at home anyway.

With rights, come responsibility. If Ma and Pa keep their veritable arsenal at home secured, and Little Johnny is taught how to respect a firearm and handle it properly, what's the issue?

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 8):
Remember kids, it's not guns that kill people

You're absolutely right. You now understand this problem better than most people in your country. With rights, comes responsibility. The Columbine kids used propane tanks as potential bombs...remember: propane tanks don't kill people, people with propane tanks kill people. Should we follow the typical mindless UK mentality of banning those, too?  Yeah sure


User currently offlineBDKLEZ From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 1735 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2172 times:

Try getting rid of the NRA. Oh shit, you can't because the're such a powerful influence on the government they're almost the government themselves! You're stuck then, eh?


Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
User currently offlineS12PPL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2162 times:

Quoting BDKLEZ (Reply 18):
Try getting rid of the NRA.

I don't have an issue with people owning guns. I have an issue with people owning assault weapons, and other guns that the military uses.

You don't need a fully automatic riffle to kill a deer.


User currently offlineAaden From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 835 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2147 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 8):

If it was that easy it would have never happened would it?

correct
harris and kebold had friends they where outkasts but not loners. they came from middle class famlies. how are we supposed to spot them when their own friends didn't even know the signs were their but everybody was clueless. they even went to senior prom with dates. They seemed to be trying to fit in.


Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
It all comes down to parenting

their parents were not to blame (at columbine). i don't know much about the others but, they did love their kids and they did instill morals into their sons.

i don't think we can blame parenting for school shootings

it might be more about self image problems i think the uniform idea could work
,or a least a dress code. i went to a private school and it seemed to work pretty well there.


User currently offlineStuckinMAF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2141 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 8):
Little Johnny can't legally own a gun, but it's not a probelm because Ma and Pa have a veritable arsenal at home anyway.

Your argument is invalid.

Mine and my brother's kids have had access to all the firearms you could ever imagine and they have not, and will not, shoot up a school.

Myself, my brother and many of our friends had access to every kind of firearm imagineable when we were growing up and we never shot up a school.

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 19):
I have an issue with people owning assault weapons, and other guns that the military uses.

You don't need a fully automatic riffle to kill a deer.

Define "assault weapon". I doubt you would even know an "assault weapon" if you saw one. The Assault Weapons Ban that sunsetted on September 1, 2004 had nothing whatsoever to do with fully automatic weapons. I laugh when I see people say that because fully automatic weapons are already heavily restriced and are actually somewhat rare.

My blood pressure went up as I was reading through the thread up to this point because the people who actually think that restricting firearms will keep this from happening are quite ignorant of what the real problem is. And don't say "then what is it, StuckinMAF?" because several have already addressed it so far, here are a couple of examples:

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
It all comes down to parenting.



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 13):
Clearly parenting actions or inactions are a factor in many of these cases. Many parents do not do their job as parents to guide their children due to a number of factors too numerous to get into here.


User currently offlineGulfStreamGirl From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 203 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2134 times:

Seems like a long shot but having finger print identification as a safety feature on all guns that are sold to licenced owners would probably eliminate school shootings, although then we just might have school stabbings.

GulfStreamGirl



If it wasn't for women ...there would be no such thing as Man :o)
User currently offlineStuckinMAF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2126 times:

Quoting Aaden (Reply 20):
their parents were not to blame (at columbine). i don't know much about the others but, they did love their kids and they did instill morals into their sons.

i don't think we can blame parenting for school shootings

Yes, their parents were to blame. Many kids today are not taught respect for the lives of other beings, and that is the problem. The "soullessness" of these two individuals was apparent.

One of the best ways to make kids have a healthy respect for life is to take them hunting. After an animal is harvested, explain that the animal may have been a mother or father of a younger one and you'll be surprised how their attitude about ALL things change because they begin to realize how precious life really is and how easily it can be taken away. The kids that shoot up schools do not have this realization and are totally immune to these feelings because they have never experienced a loss of anything.

Quoting Aaden (Reply 20):
it might be more about self image problems i think the uniform idea could work
,or a least a dress code. i went to a private school and it seemed to work pretty well there.

That's a good "feel-good" fix, but that's about all. The reason a private school is not as likely to become a crime scene is because the student-to-teacher ratio is much lower and the kids are more involved with an authority figure.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2118 times:

Quoting BDKLEZ (Reply 18):
Try getting rid of the NRA

Yeah get rid of a group who has a gun safety education clause in their charter....not the brightest idea.

Quoting GulfStreamGirl (Reply 22):
Seems like a long shot but having finger print identification as a safety feature on all guns that are sold to licenced owners would probably eliminate school shootings, although then we just might have school stabbings



I highlighted the part I agree with.

Why should legal firearm owners have to jump through all these hoops to buy a tool? That is all a weapon is.....a tool.

[Edited 2006-02-26 21:20:46]


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineS12PPL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2099 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 24):
Why should legal firearm owners have to jump through all these hoops to buy a tool? That is all a weapon is.....a tool.

Because legal firearm owners have proven time and time again that it doesn't matter how responsible the owner is, or if it is a "tool"....They still go out and murder people far too often. Until that stops....Expect it to be hard to buy that "tool".


User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2091 times:

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 25):
Because legal firearm owners have proven time and time again that it doesn't matter how responsible the owner is, or if it is a "tool"....They still go out and murder people far too often.

No, legal firearm owners DON'T go out and murder people, for the simple reason that they are responsible users of firearms.

It's the criminal element and those who don't respect life and how to use firearms that murder people.

You didn't think that comment through before you posted, did you?


25 Post contains links StuckinMAF : Legal motor vehicle owners have proven time and time again that it doesn't matter how responsible the owner is, or if it is a "tool"....They still go
26 Post contains images Mdsh00 : I don't agree with that. Dress codes and uniforms exist at all levels of society and are still sanctioned by the courts and constitution. Considering
27 WhiteHatter : as usual all the wingnuts start shrieking whenever anyone dares question their right to bear more arms than an average army. But let's try and look a
28 Post contains images ANCFlyer :    Rather than a parent(s) pissing and moaning because Johnny gets detention for being an ass, Johnny's parent(s) need to take issue with him at ho
29 BHMBAGLOCK : The problem with this is that we really aren't even close to being able to make this 100% reliable. There is no way that people will put up with guns
30 WhiteHatter : If it teaches responsible gun ownership then no, you shouldn't be criticised. Again it's the rights and responsibilities thing. Teach the kid about t
31 AAden : it would be harder for kids to kill people if we didn't have guns it will never happen but it's a thought the kids at columbine were taught respect,
32 Lehpron : Easy, cut the damn bullying out so they don't have a reason to get back at people.
33 Iowaman : I would put in my two cents that would solve 80% of the problem, however I don't want to get banned for racism.
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