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"US Doctors Are The 3rd Leading Cause Of Death"  
User currently offlineNWDC10 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2062 times:

http://www.mercola.com/2000/jul/30/doctors_death.htm Robert NWDC10

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNWDC10 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2051 times:

ALL THESE ARE DEATHS PER YEAR:

12,000 -- unnecessary surgery
7,000 -- medication errors in hospitals
20,000 -- other errors in hospitals
80,000 -- infections in hospitals
106,000 -- non-error, negative effects of drugs
These total to 250,000 deaths per year from iatrogenic causes!! Robert NWDC10


User currently offlineFlyingbabydoc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2046 times:

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 1):
12,000 -- unnecessary surgery
7,000 -- medication errors in hospitals
20,000 -- other errors in hospitals
80,000 -- infections in hospitals
106,000 -- non-error, negative effects of drugs
These total to 250,000 deaths per year from iatrogenic causes!! Robert NWDC10

Unnecessary surgery: sometimes you have to make a choice and operate on the assumption the problem needs surgery. As usual, hindsight is always 20/20 (oh, he/she shouldn't have operated)...the decision is always difficult. And how many times the surgery indication was correct and saved a life?
medication errors: usually controlled by both doctors and nurses. How about the number of patients that abuse/misuse medication by themselves when advised against?
infections: not a medical mistake/error: infections can occur everywhere - even when you clip your toenails at home.
negative effect of drugs: how can those be controlled for, when a patient has no previous history?

so 250.000 deaths from "iatrogenic causes". What is the total number of patients? how many deaths per year in total? How many of these would have died anyways despite treatment? How many more would have died at home?

If you really believe doctors are such murderers, just stay home and hope for a spontaneous cure next time you are ill.

Such statistics are BS, in my opinion.

Alex


User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2000 times:

This is a science, but it's not an exact science. Honest mistakes are unfortunately going to be made.

User currently offlineYooYoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1982 times:

Oh to be perfect.  angel 


Yet the stats are interesting and Alex makes some very good points.



I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1946 times:

The problem is that society nowadays expect doctors to be perfect and be able to cure anything that a patient comes in with. It's not something that is good but since doctors are human, mistakes are bound to happen. Of course its a right thing to have controls and meetings to asses if mistakes are made, so that docs can learn from them. But to insinuate that most of these deaths are due to willful negligence is just wrong and usually WAY overestimated.

By the way I love how the article links the deaths with doctors, and not the many other underlying factors in their death.



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineQANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1944 times:

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 2):
Such statistics are BS, in my opinion.

A first year statistics student could demolish this conclusion.

It's up there with the idea that because an area infected with a disease area has more doctors per capita than areas not affected that we should get rid of the doctors, thereby removing the disease also.

QFF


User currently offlineFlyingbabydoc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1930 times:

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 6):
A first year statistics student could demolish this conclusion.

I am not talking about the statistics per se. During my PhD I was shown in class that you can prove statistically almost anything - even that 2 + 2 = 5. What I meant is that the interpretation of such results is basically BS.

Just an example, how would you control for such an "infection" when people themselves refuse to let their children be vaccinated? Then a child gets encephalitis from measles and dies in spite of an aggressive therapy with antiviral drugs. Is it still the physician's fault? Statistically yes - the child died in the hospital despite treatment. Maybe the diagnosis took a little while - viral diagnostics is made through PCR - but the real culprit is the parent who did not allow this child to be vaccinated. This, however, is never shown on the statistics.

It is easier to blame doctors when things go wrong. Hard is to acknowledge when things go well. That pisses me off.

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 5):
By the way I love how the article links the deaths with doctors, and not the many other underlying factors in their death.

My point exactly.

Alex


User currently offlineQANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1927 times:

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 7):
My point exactly.

But then again, one could claim that gun violence doesn't kill people - it could be internal bleeding, a punctured lung, suffocation, poisoning - that although all related to a gun shot wound are the things that actually kill a person.

QFF


User currently offlineKevinl1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 48
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1922 times:

Quoting NWDC10 (Thread starter):
"US Doctors Are The 3rd Leading Cause Of Death"

.....and Pilots are the leading cause of death in aviation accidents.

Anesthesiologist scare the shit out of me. They typically have names you can't spell or pronounce, and diplomas from Universities you've never heard of. These guys are permitted to put you on the ragged edge of life and death with less than a quarter of the education an MD has.



474218, Carl, You will be missed.
User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1920 times:

Quoting NWDC10 (Thread starter):
"US Doctors Are The 3rd Leading Cause Of Death"

Its true. After my penis enlargement, I almost killed my girlfriend.


User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1897 times:

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 9):
Anesthesiologist scare the shit out of me. They typically have names you can't spell or pronounce, and diplomas from Universities you've never heard of. These guys are permitted to put you on the ragged edge of life and death with less than a quarter of the education an MD has.

Um, you do know that Anesthesiologists are MD's right? Thev'e gone through the same amount of schooling that any other doctor has. And also, someone could have gotten a medical degree at Harvard and that doesn't automatically make him/her a good doctor. All the learning happens in the feild.



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4870 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1892 times:

Where does "regime change" rank in this list?  box 

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1872 times:

Those wacky Christian Scientists. Well if they took me off my pills they'd have a lot more than just disease to worry about, I think.


Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3347 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1850 times:

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 9):

Anesthesiologist scare the shit out of me. They typically have names you can't spell or pronounce, and diplomas from Universities you've never heard of. These guys are permitted to put you on the ragged edge of life and death with less than a quarter of the education an MD has.

You clearly have no clue what you are talking about. An anesthesiologist went to four years of college, four years of of medical school and three years of an anesthesiology residency program.

This study says a lot when it is thrown up on some quacks web page. "Natural health" for the most part, is a joke. Isn't it funny when medicine really counts, in the Emergency Room or in a Critical Care setting, there aren't any chiropractors or other "doctors of natural medicine" there.

Some people will just die no matter what you do for them. A doctor is a doctor, not God.

AAndrew


User currently offlineFokker Lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1845 times:

50% of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class. There's absolutely nothing we can do to get those numbers up.  Big grin

User currently offlineKevinl1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 48
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1821 times:

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 11):
Um, you do know that Anesthesiologists are MD's right? Thev'e gone through the same amount of schooling that any other doctor has.

OK...caught me. However...IMO, MD's do seem to have a lot more framed certificates on the wall.  Wink

All I've ever seen from an Anesthesiologist is a badge! ....and only until the count of ......uh....

I would think being a Surgeon would require a lot more training and experience. Thanks for the enlightenment.  biggrin 

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 14):
You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.

 cry  I'm so ashamed!



474218, Carl, You will be missed.
User currently offlineFlyingbabydoc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1818 times:

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 14):
Isn't it funny when medicine really counts, in the Emergency Room or in a Critical Care setting, there aren't any chiropractors or other "doctors of natural medicine" there.

Some people will just die no matter what you do for them. A doctor is a doctor, not God.

Well, there is a role for chiropractos and natural medicine too. Just not in the ER or in the OR. They do help in many cases. But as you say, when an aneurysm is bleeding, there is little help in herbs and massages...

I would correct your sentence: EVERYONE will die, no matter what. We just try to prolong the life as much as we can.

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 16):
All I've ever seen from an Anesthesiologist is a badge! ....and only until the count of ......uh....

Certificates do not mean anything. Anesthesiologists are highly trained professionals that have one of the most stressful jobs in Medicine. They have to react perfectly in seconds to very challenging situations. There is no room to think too long if a patient is fibrillating or convulsing in the table. Research in anesthesia is very developed and has brought up many advancements in the medical science. I have the utmost respect for anesthesiologists. Without them I could never perform my job.

Quoting Kevinl1011 (Reply 16):
I would think being a Surgeon would require a lot more training and experience. Thanks for the enlightenment

Not true. In fact, some anesthesiologists call the drapes that divide us the "blood-brain-barrier". Surgeons are the blood part... We train hard, but so do them. A good surgeon can accomplish close to nothing without the support of good anesthesiologists.
But it does piss them off that we get most of the glory for a successful operation, and not them!  devil 

Cheers

Alex


User currently offlineKevinl1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2964 posts, RR: 48
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1807 times:

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 17):
I have the utmost respect for anesthesiologists

They still scare the shit out of me.  Wink

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 17):
A good surgeon can accomplish close to nothing without the support of good anesthesiologists.

.....and thank you for the enlightenment as well!  smirk 



474218, Carl, You will be missed.
User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1805 times:

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 2):
Unnecessary surgery: sometimes you have to make a choice and operate on the assumption the problem needs surgery. As usual, hindsight is always 20/20 (oh, he/she shouldn't have operated)...the decision is always difficult. And how many times the surgery indication was correct and saved a life?
medication errors: usually controlled by both doctors and nurses. How about the number of patients that abuse/misuse medication by themselves when advised against?
infections: not a medical mistake/error: infections can occur everywhere - even when you clip your toenails at home.
negative effect of drugs: how can those be controlled for, when a patient has no previous history?

so 250.000 deaths from "iatrogenic causes". What is the total number of patients? how many deaths per year in total? How many of these would have died anyways despite treatment? How many more would have died at home?

If you really believe doctors are such murderers, just stay home and hope for a spontaneous cure next time you are ill.

Such statistics are BS, in my opinion.

Alex



Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 7):
It is easier to blame doctors when things go wrong. Hard is to acknowledge when things go well. That pisses me off.

Thanks for defending us...welcome to my RU list

[Edited 2006-03-10 09:34:55]


A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1780 times:

OK here we go !


1)What about Truck drivers and drivers in General...how many people don't they kill with their pollution ...same can be said about anything that runs on fuel

2) What about militaries...how many people don't they kill ?

3) How about lawyers...ho many people don't commit suicide because of them ?

4)Cops...they do kill people

5)Tobacco industries!!! They kill many millions of people worldwide

but of course it always doctors who are blamed !



A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1775 times:

Not to mention that patients sometimes don't let their doctors know what meds or other things they are doing.

If a patient with heart disease is taking Viagra and later goes into cardiac arrest, and the ER docs give him nitrates (Viagra and nitrates can possibly kill you if you have heart problems) because he didn't even have any documentation on him that told them that he was taking Viagra, is it 100% the doctors' fault?



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3347 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1752 times:

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 17):
In fact, some anesthesiologists call the drapes that divide us the "blood-brain-barrier". Surgeons are the blood part... We train hard, but so do them. A good surgeon can accomplish close to nothing without the support of good anesthesiologists.

Just wondering, FlyingBabyDoc (and RootsAir), do you guys have CRNAs (Certified Registered Nurse Anestitists) in your respective countries? Do you have Advanced Practice Nurses at all?

AAndrew


User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1744 times:

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 22):

Just wondering, FlyingBabyDoc (and RootsAir), do you guys have CRNAs (Certified Registered Nurse Anestitists) in your respective countries? Do you have Advanced Practice Nurses at all?

AAndrew

Yes indeed .. In Switzerland its 4 years to become a Nurse... they then have to have AT LEAST 2 years of experence before they can do a specialisation in nursing. That is to say many go well above those 2 years to specialise. Then its 2 to 3 years of intensive training depending on the speciality for them to get the certificate. Its called differently to the ones you mentioned but I have no doubt they are equivalent in value !



A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineFlyguyAZ From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1710 times:

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 1):
ALL THESE ARE DEATHS PER YEAR:

12,000 -- unnecessary surgery
7,000 -- medication errors in hospitals
20,000 -- other errors in hospitals
80,000 -- infections in hospitals
106,000 -- non-error, negative effects of drugs
These total to 250,000 deaths per year from iatrogenic causes!! Robert NWDC10

How many lives to doctors (and nurses, and paramedics, and EMTs) SAVE each year?



Future ER Doc!
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