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Why Isn't The UK Part Of Schengen?  
User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3529 posts, RR: 29
Posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks ago) and read 9946 times:

Why didn't the UK join the Schengen cooperation? This makes quite some things inconvenient, so is there any particular reason why the UK didn't join this cooperation?

Michael

54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGman94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 1239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks ago) and read 9936 times:

Because we want to control our own immigration and border arrangements.


British Airways - The Way To Fly
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24914 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks ago) and read 9934 times:

I think we'd prefer to stay out of the USE (United States of Europe).

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 1):
Because we want to control our own immigration and border arrangements.

Aye, agree with that



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently onlineToulouse From Switzerland, joined Apr 2005, 2758 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks ago) and read 9912 times:

Ireland to join either... a pain in the neck if you ask me, especially when I have to spend upto an hour in line at immigration (mainly if arriving at Pier A in DUB), and obviously vice-a-versa when we arrive in other Scengen countries. I love though travelling between Schengen countries, eg. Spain and France as the lack of passport control really speeds things up.


Long live Aer Lingus!
User currently offlineWillo From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 1352 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks ago) and read 9911 times:

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 1):
Because we want to control our own immigration and border arrangements

...and a damn fine job we are doing of it as well!  Yeah sure


User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24914 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks ago) and read 9904 times:

Quoting Willo (Reply 4):
...and a damn fine job we are doing of it as well! Yeah sure

Would be even worse if those corrupt Eurotarts in Brussels got their hands on it.



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineFlyingbabydoc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9904 times:

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 1):
Because we want to control our own immigration and border arrangements

Pardon me if I am wrong, but I think the UK has the same (if not worse) immigration problems as the countries in the Schengen Agreement. So what advantages concretely you have for this control?

(not criticizing, I am really just asking).

Alex


User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3529 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9895 times:

Since Schengen in fact is an international treaty, it has nothing to do with the EU, at least directly. Since the UK is actually participating in some areas of the Schengen cooperation, there aren't that many differences either. It just seems odd to me that some Non-EU countries are Schengen countries while the UK is not.

User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24914 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9891 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 7):
Since Schengen in fact is an international treaty, it has nothing to do with the EU, at least directly. Since the UK is actually participating in some areas of the Schengen cooperation, there aren't that many differences either. It just seems odd to me that some Non-EU countries are Schengen countries while the UK is not.

I'll still blame the EU anyway  Wink
The good for nothing  censored !  Wink



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineGman94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 1239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9891 times:

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 6):
Pardon me if I am wrong, but I think the UK has the same (if not worse) immigration problems as the countries in the Schengen Agreement. So what advantages concretely you have for this control?

Yeah but at least it's out own mess and problem to sort out. If we were part of Schengen then we would have no control of our borders at all and be at the whim of some twat in Brussels; We have enough of our own twats without anyone else's giving us problems. Big grin

[Edited 2006-03-15 15:23:29]


British Airways - The Way To Fly
User currently onlineToulouse From Switzerland, joined Apr 2005, 2758 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9874 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 7):
It just seems odd to me that some Non-EU countries are Schengen countries while the UK is not

Odd indeed, but there are only 2 non EU countries in Schengen: Norway and Iceland, which are both members of the EEA (European Economic Area).



Long live Aer Lingus!
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9860 times:

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 5):
Would be even worse if those corrupt Eurotarts in Brussels got their hands on it.

do you have proof of your claim that the E.U.-officials in Brussels are corrupt. And do you have proof that there are no corrupt customs-official in the public service of the U.K. ?

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 7):
It just seems odd to me that some Non-EU countries are Schengen countries while the UK is not.

E.U.-membership does NOT mean automatically Schengen-membership. Schengen/Dublin-membership at the other hand is obtainable for NON-E.U. members who have necessary association treaties with the E.U.
Switzerland is now becoming Schengen member.


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13042 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9858 times:

On reason I would suspect that some EU countries like the UK are not part of the Schengen agreements, yet Switzerland is, is because the UK (along with Norway) apparently does not issue a national identity card to it's citizens or legal residents (nor does the USA for that matter as to citizens). Therfore, you need a passport for identity purpose as to citizenship or residence to travel outside of the UK.

User currently offlineLO231 From Belgium, joined Sep 2004, 2392 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9841 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 12):
On reason I would suspect that some EU countries like the UK are not part of the Schengen agreements, yet Switzerland is, is because the UK (along with Norway) apparently does not issue a national identity card to it's citizens or legal residents (nor does the USA for that matter as to citizens). Therfore, you need a passport for identity purpose as to citizenship or residence to travel outside of the UK.

The Netherlands also don't issue ID cards, yet they are part of Schengen...

Regards,
LO231



Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9831 times:

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 1):
Because we want to control our own immigration and border arrangements.

As it is, the UK doesn't exercise immigration controls for EU citizens, because that would violate the treaty language on free movement. EU citizens simply flash their passport OR national ID and are on their merry way. Also, a Schengen member country can temporarily suspend Schengen an any time for simple cause.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 12):
Therfore, you need a passport for identity purpose as to citizenship or residence to travel outside of the UK.

But you don't need a passport to get in if you are an EU citizen. I have seen several people at Heathrow in the EU line simply flash their ID card and enter into the UK.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9811 times:

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 10):

Odd indeed, but there are only 2 non EU countries in Schengen: Norway and Iceland, which are both members of the EEA (European Economic Area).

Soon three. Switzerland will join Schengen, probably effective from 2007 on. We even are not member of the EEA.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9788 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
EU citizens simply flash their passport OR national ID and are on their merry way.

You can't have been through passport control recently. British or other EU, you don't just flash your passport and wander through anymore. You end up stuck in a bloody great queue and they check your passport properly.

As for Schengen, being an island changes things rather substantially. On the continent, border crossings are pretty arbitrary devices, and people could always go around them if they were even mildly inclined to. Historically, long before the advent of Schengen, border controls on the continent were pretty lax, often with no-one manning the checkpoints. Certainly they didn't check ever (or often, any) car! Britain and Ireland have always been different, because we both have rather a lot of water around us. You can't just wander over wherever you feel like it.

To put it into context, Britain and Ireland have long had a customs union - effectively a mini-Schengen in its own right - for each others' citizens, and for the same reasons.

Essentially, the British government doesn't trust other European governments to do the role of screening properly. The fiasco at Sangatte was evidence enough of that, when the French government didn't exactly discourage illegal immigrants from heading off to Britain, so long as they were off their hands. Not that I blame for that in the slightest!  Wink



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently onlineToulouse From Switzerland, joined Apr 2005, 2758 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9768 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 15):
Soon three. Switzerland will join Schengen, probably effective from 2007 on.

I knew that was coming, good to hear Switzerland is entering the Schengen area, yet I must say I've crossed borders on the Austria/Swiss side by train (the only place I had my passport checked). On train from Switzerland to Italy, no checks, and while frquently crossing from/into France near Genava, I've only ever been stopped to by the motorway sticker when I didn't have one. Talking about that, your motorway system with that annual sticker is a brilliant idea, I so wish other countries would copy Switzerland.



Long live Aer Lingus!
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9731 times:

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 17):
I knew that was coming, good to hear Switzerland is entering the Schengen area, yet I must say I've crossed borders on the Austria/Swiss side by train (the only place I had my passport checked). On train from Switzerland to Italy, no checks, and while frquently crossing from/into France near Genava, I've only ever been stopped to by the motorway sticker when I didn't have one.

You are right. I often cross the boarder to Germany and propbably in the last 100 times I didn't have to show any piece of identity, it is like Schengen already.


User currently offlinePdpsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1110 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9694 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 16):
Essentially, the British government doesn't trust other European governments to do the role of screening properly

This sounds illogical to me. How can the UK participate in a political and economic union with 24 other states, yet fail to "trust" the screening proceedures of those partner nations?

The UK has been a member state of the EU [at the time called EEC] since 1973, over 32 years.

How, after so many years, could the British people not offer their support for a policy designed to enhance economic efficiency and facilitate inter-state travel?

Here in North America, our NAFTA accord with Mexico and Canada is a mere economic treaty, without provisions for political unification. However, eleven years after its ratification by the three member states, NAFTA has proven to be a TREMENDOUS economic success for the US, Mexico and Canada. Trade volumes between member states have expanded beyond the dreams of even the most vocal NAFTA supporter.

Economic ties between the US, Mexico and Canada are stronger than ever before.

If the UK has the opportunity to join a multilateral system designed to greatly facilitate economic efficiency and international travel, it should JUMP AT THE CHANCE!


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 9664 times:

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 19):
If the UK has the opportunity to join a multilateral system designed to greatly facilitate economic efficiency and international travel, it should JUMP AT THE CHANCE!

Right.  Yeah sure

So we'll look forward to the US dismantling its borders with Mexico and Canada in the near future then, in the same manner?



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9656 times:

I think the primary issue is the Commonwealth - most Commonwealth citizens can visit the UK without a visa for 3 months or whatever, whereas most require Schengen visas for France, Germany etc. If the UK wished to join Schengen, it would be forced to conform to the Schengen visa requirements for non-Schengen countries, which would damage the nature of the Commonwealth.

I think Schengen is great - travelling to Rome or Frankfurt is like domestic, no passports or customs (although in fact you have to present ID anyway, so it's not much different). That said, if you take the late BA flight from LHR to NCE, it gets in around 2300, and there's never anyone at passport control in NCE anyway, so it's like a mini-Schengen agreement !

Same is true getting off the ferry from Calais in Dover - 99% of the cars whizz straight through with no checks at all. Welcome to the UK, wandering Armenians !


User currently offlineFlyingbabydoc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9653 times:

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 17):
Talking about that, your motorway system with that annual sticker is a brilliant idea, I so wish other countries would copy Switzerland.

You can't be serious!?!

They should copy Germany - the best Motorways and NO toll whatsoever...  Wink

Alex


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9650 times:

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 22):
They should copy Germany - the best Motorways and NO toll whatsoever...

Be fair, Alex. Who on earth would pay to go through Germany?  Wink



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineFlyingbabydoc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9648 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 23):
Be fair, Alex. Who on earth would pay to go through Germany?

Well, some people are looking forward to seeing England disqualified in the first round of the World Cup... and willing to see it live on stadium. Maybe those "few"?  Big grin

Besides... it is the fastest way to Sweden where it is REALLY nice.

Cheers!


25 DIJKKIJK : Not really true, the legal foreigners are issued with a residence permit which is basically a plastic card with the photo of the bearer and other inf
26 ME AVN FAN : into Germany and into France is absolutely no problem, but the only non-problem way into Switzerland is on the motorway from Germany into Basel via W
27 ME AVN FAN : true, the controls of the ferries coming from Jersey to Britain are far stricter, but that apparently is a result of the traffic volume it was like i
28 LO231 : I meant Dutch nationals don't have ID cards, only passports when travelling in Europe.. Regards, LO231
29 Post contains images Flyingbabydoc : Possibly, yet you don't have to try to drive in a 2-lane motorway with 4 cars or 3 cars and a truck going side by side... My wife says, an italian mo
30 Post contains images TheSonntag : Come on, lets turn this thread into a discussion about Autobahnen and other motorways No doubt the German system is the best, no speed limits, 13000km
31 LO231 : Countries from Schengen issue "Schengen visas" rather than their country's, I think.. Regards, LO231
32 ME AVN FAN : - well, I much prefer the Italian way of driving to the German one, which is a strange combination of discipline, stubborness and outright aggressive
33 ME AVN FAN : Why not ? as the Brits for the time being apparently are adamant NOT to join Schengen for the next few years.
34 ZRH : I have other experiences. I often pass the boarder from Germany into Switzerland at Jestetten (into Canton Zürich) or Neuhausen (into Canton Schaffh
35 Flyingbabydoc : I beg to differ. No way it is more dangerous than in Belgium (driving in the streets of Brussels is always a nightmare) or in Italy. Besides, the num
36 ME AVN FAN : to MY experience JESTETTEN is one of the worst Neuhausen is acceptable while driving in Italy is nice
37 Post contains images Flyingbabydoc : Really? Try driving on the A2 or the A1 into Milan on a Sunday night after a holiday.... Or the Brennero during the holidays in Germany... The views
38 ME AVN FAN : Most countries on earth have trouble-zones and trouble-times, and if happen to combine both, then it is hell everywhere. Beside the point that madmen
39 Post contains images TheSorcerer : It's just a strategic move by the EU to make it harder for all the british chavs and thugs to get into continental europe. Dominic
40 Post contains images N1120A : I flew on July 8th last year (day after the bombings) LHR-FRA-NCE and back to LHR 3 days later and the passport check I had LEAVING the country (by a
41 Post contains images Nimish : I'm kind of glad the UK is not a part of the Schengen system. Any system that issues visas only for 3 days (if that's what your itinerary is) is ridic
42 Banco : No. Asylum seekers are welcome, illegal immigrants are not. Hence the differentiation.
43 MD11Engineer : My non-EU citizen (3dr world country) girlfriend (with permanent residence in Ireland) has at the moment a multi-entry Schengen visa valid for until
44 IFACN : Doing about 50.000km/year on Italian highways and other 20000km/year abroad, I think to be eligible to give an opinion backed up by fact... Maybe ther
45 Nimish : As she's got an Irish Residence visa, she's already "a resident of" Europe, and not treated like a "3rd world country" citizen. Apples and Oranges re
46 Byronsterk : Because the're too darn stubborn!!!
47 Post contains images Mrniji : Michael, I agree with Nimish here. The UK has compared to many Shengen Countries, especially to Germany, a far more liberal system (Students can work
48 Post contains images RobertNL070 : I beg to differ. On the left a Dutch passport. On the right a Dutch Indentiteitskaart or ID card. This card can be used to travel to all EU countries
49 N1120A : They were considered illegal going into the UK because they already were awaiting asylum in France. They were trying to get into the UK because asylu
50 Egmcman : The trouble is here in the UK we are regarded as being a soft touch compared to other EU member states. Hopefully the new points based sytem will mak
51 ME AVN FAN : really ? when getting to whichever country, the asylum-seekers simply do NOT know whether their request will be accepted or turned down. If it gets t
52 Mrniji : I fully agree with all of your comments. I used to work as a social councellor in an Asylum seekers' home in South Germany. Hey, I can tell you this
53 BHXFAOTIPYYC : That's what the EEC (European ECONOMIC Community) was supposed to be about. That's what Brits thought they were voting for in the 73/74 referendum- t
54 Post contains images Mrniji : You have excellent points. And in my eyes it has been proven that Britain, though not part of Shengen, is executing its task at its best. The Commonw
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