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Brainwashing  
User currently offlineCliffie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 956 times:

Please rate and comment the following article from 1 (worst lies) to 10 (valid).

http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/co/9768/1.html

Thanks.

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6431 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 866 times:

I don't think that it can be judged on a liniar scale (1-10). To do that is has to be assumed that the purpose was to be informative. It wasn't.

It was written by some weird person who is in great need for personal attention from the world. That's all.

We will have to get used to the fact that the Internet is filled with that sort of stuff, and it will most likely increase dramatically in the future.

It was also there before the Internet. But newpapers etc, we knew pretty well which ones were trustworthy, and they had a name which we recognized, while we ignored the rest. This Internet trash has no label, so the reader must sort himself.

Best regards, Preben Norholm



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineLj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 843 times:

Prebennorhom, unfortunately it is a fact that Islamic fundamentalists did fight in Kosovo and Bosnia. During the war in Bosnia some Arab nations openly supported the freedom fighters (mostly financially).

Moreover, his sources seems to be easy verifiable thus calling him a weird person is not correct just because you don't like the "news".

First verify his sources before accusing somebody of something.

BTW I never believe any parties information during a war as we all know that both sides propoganda machine is running overtime.

Oh yes, until I haven't verified this story (which I can't do entirely) I won't rate this article.

Regards
Laurens


User currently offlineAirmale From Botswana, joined Sep 2004, 377 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 830 times:

No offence Prbennorholm, but you're no expert Smile


.....up there with the best!
User currently offlineCliffie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 826 times:

The first casualty when war comes it truth. To my surprise people around the world are begging for honest and ballanced coverage. Except Americans. They line up around a flag and thats better than knowledge.

How free is this country if it's not allowed to talk about the recent mismanagement and its bloody history at all?


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13192 posts, RR: 77
Reply 5, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 828 times:

You ARE allowed to talk about 'mis-management', otherwise that article, and plenty of printed ones, would not be there!
There is a small anti-war movement in the US, and CND are parroting their usual line here in the UK.
Think you've got no freedom of speech? See you in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, N.Korea, Zimbabwe....to name a few.
It aint a perfect world, remember history. We really screwed-up with the Nazis in the 30's, didn't make fighting them any less wrong.


User currently offlineCliffie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 820 times:

Yes, but lets say you live in North Carolina or similar regions, are you free to speak there too? The bible belt will lynch you self-evidently for a doubt. Patriotism is good, but I tell you at least the good people there are anything but free to judge unpleasant facts.

User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 809 times:

No offense, Airmale, but you're not expert, either, are you?

And Cliffie, I think it's hysterical that you talk about brainwashed Americans. Your nation-virtually the ENTIRE German Volk, allowed Hitler to brainwash them. And it helped lead to at least 50 million deaths in the Second World War.

It's even funnier to hear someone in Germany talk like this after the US rebuilt Germany after WW II, helped it to become one of the Economic Miracles of the 20th Century, and has supported it and stood by Germany since World War II ended. Or, are you from the East part of Germany, that maybe misses the "good old days" of East Germany?

I will not blow smoke up your rear end and tell you America has no faults, Cliffie, but your lecturing hold little credibility, what with the frightening history of your own country in the 20th Century.



User currently offlineDasa From East Timor, joined Aug 2001, 760 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 804 times:

Alpha 1, you are a racist, plain and simple. You are also very narrow-minded, and do not allow others to express their opinions. I noticed that you did not reply to my Truce thread. Well, now I understand why. You refuse to accept people of other beliefs. You would be the perfect Communist. You could always believe the government propaganda.

User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 805 times:

No Dasa; You're the one thats closed minded. Where is it that alpha one is a racist. You've got some nerve to pull an Al Sharpton and play a race card when nothing is based on that at all. You want to se racism then look at the Apratheid that went on in South Afirca orthe fact that more than 6 million jewish men, women and children were slaughtered, Because we turned the cheek. If we turned the cheek longer. I wouldn't be born and you would either be dead or Heiling Hitler. The next time you're country gets in a jam guess who is going to bail your asses out. Why don't you fly through JFK and I'll show you what has heppened to my city and to it's people first hand pal. I'm not a tree hugging antiwar far left liberal like you pal!!! Back off you're barking up the wrong tree!


"FUIMUS"
User currently offlineIkarus From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 3524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 793 times:

Aw, those German-bashing threads are always a delight. You will always find some a-holes thinking that the USA rescued and rebuilt Germany all alone.  Yeah sure They will immediately point out that German people should shut up and be thankful and not dare to contribute arguments against their own....

Germany received less money than the UK or France, was more damaged, had lost most of its intelligent people (engineers, rocket scientists etc.) to the USA or the Soviet Union, and yet it rebuilt itself quite well.

Besides, Germany today is the opposite of America in some aspects. We learnt our lesson - nationalism is something to be ashamed of in most parts (except maybe that inbred Catholicism-infested, hillbilly Land of Bavaria). Whereas America (and also France and some other states) are leading the world on the nationalism scale. There, people walk around waving their flag, talking about the land of the free and how only their language should be allowed to be spoken in their country - it's quite sickening really. And all it needs for America (or France) to turn into a holocaust-machine is a really really bad long-term recession and a target population to hate (Arabs are an obvious at-risk group right now in the US, and probably North Africans in France) - and voila: it could start all over again. Just look at your fellow users who proposed in these forums to reintroduce concentration camps, interning all Muslims, to be 100% sure that no terrorist attacks could happen again, and to "protect" them from the justified anger of the population. And these proposals are made before the economic climate is even collapsing. Now, they are a minority (but a minority whose very existence is worrying all in itself) - just imagine how their hold on the population would grow if America hit 10 years of recession and unemployment....

OK. I think Ineed to calm down and take a breath. Let me rephrase it all: Anyone attacking a 35-45 year old German and a 16-20 year old Australian because they are (supposedly, in the latter case) part of the population that, 50-70 years ago, started history's worst genocide, is failing to see one important point: The people being attacked were not part of it, cannot relate to it or understand it more than any American can. I've seen 1000s of documentaries, movies etc. and read 100s of books about the Third Reich. And still I do not get it. How one guy could line up almost an entire nation behind him and go through with the most hideous crimes imaginable in front of their very eyes.... it is beyond my direct experience. All I can do is try to spot the factors (inflation, recession, unemployment, nationalism, traditional anti-semitism, Darwinism) that combined at the time. Still I cannot really comprehend the scale of it. And to be told to shut up because I have been born in that country sounds ridiculous to me. I can't understand it more than an American, I detest that part of our history as much as an American does... So that's why I get rather irritated when German users are discouraged from airing their opinion in the same free manner as anyone else.

Anyway. Airmale1 is no racist - just someone prejudiced against Germans, as is VirginA340.

Regards

Ikarus


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13192 posts, RR: 77
Reply 11, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 794 times:

Ikarus, I don't think those treads were German-bashing.
I like Germany, admire the stability, democracy and industrial/technical prowess of the nation.
But the US did, through the Marshall Plan, re-build Europe after WW2.
The UK did not get the same, or more aid than Germany. How could it?
We never had huge, destructive land battles on our soil and though the war had bankrupted the UK, the industries were pretty intact.
West Germany prospered under the NATO umbrella, yes Germany was a major part of that effort too.
When re-unification came, no-one stood in the way, not even the then quite deranged Maggie Thatcher.
Now a NATO member has been attacked, they have not lashed out in anger straight away, and they are not trying to fool their people, and their allies, into thinking that it will be a quick and easy fightback.
For all it's faults, and to us Europeans funny ways, the USA is a land of freedom of speech, of religious tolerance and a pretty succesful 'melting pot' too.
Something that those fanatics hiding behind Islam, totally hate.
And they hate ALL free, democratic Western nations, Germany included. They thrive on oppression and ignorance, our very exsistance is a threat to them.
Another aspect of this tragedy is that Bin-Laden and his followers exploit the poverty and ignorance of many in the Islamic world.
A positive is that the US has recently seen how self-centered and cynical the current Israeli leader is, and may force a settlement of the Palestinian question that is fair to both sides.
But at least Israel is a democracy, something that should shame the rest of that region with their corrupt dictatorships.
That, along with firm military action against Bin-Laden, his proxys and supporters, would create the best conditions for reducing terrorism.
Remember, we are talking about people who murdered thousands in one day in NY and Washington, not a bunch a Bader-Meinhof fanatics killing the odd businessman.


User currently offlineIkarus From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 3524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 787 times:

GDB: To be honest, I haven't read the article (it was too long and not very interesting) and I was not arguing about NATO or bin Laden. It just pisses me off if people dismiss and opinion because a German states it. They can dismiss it because he (possibly) never was in the Bible belt, because he does not really know what the USA is like, or because they disagree with his "liberal tree-hugging" views. But dismissing it because "he is German" and becaue "his nation did this and that in their history" is stupid. It is equivalent to me stating "Americans have no right to criticize the genocide in Kosovo/Rwhanda/wherever-it-happens-at-the-time because they slaughtered all the Native Americans 200 years ago". It is a skewed perspective that pisses me off.

Regards

Ikarus


User currently offlineAirmale From Botswana, joined Sep 2004, 377 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 779 times:

Ikarus-excuse me....but when and where did I say im anti Germany? or were you referring to Alpha1, yes now he is a bigot and a narrow minded racist who thinks no one else has teh right to their opinion Angry


.....up there with the best!
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 762 times:

Dasa-how is it racist to point out the history of Germany? Germany between 1933 and 1945 was directly responsible for around 50 million deaths during the Holocaust and World War II. That isn't being racists, which, by the way, I'm certainly not. That's historical fact. I was just calling him on his hypocrisy to have the nerve to say how bad the US has been, especially painted against the far worse history of his country.

Ikarus, I admire Germany today-it's amazing that they were able to rebound and thrive after the burden that Nazism put on their history as a people. I am not knocking Germany in any way for what they are today. They are indeed a very respected and positive force in today's world.

And maybe Britian and France got more aid from the Marshall Plan after WW II because they were Allies of the US, whereas Germany was the enemy? Ever think of that? The fact is the United States did, indeed, almost single-handedly rebuild West Germany-the Russians let East Germany and Eastern rot for 40 years, but you fail to bring that up. The US supplied billions of dollars to rebuild all of Europe. Did the Western Europeans play a large role in this, by showing such great resolve after the war? Absolutely. But the truth is, that if it weren't for US money following the war, it would have taken years longer to rebuild Western Europe than it did.

And Airmale, you've totally discredited yourself on this board in the last 3 weeks, with your constant support of Mr. Osama, your constant US-Bashing, and your constantly bringing up these wacko websites in an attempt to discredit the US. I am neither bigoted, racist nor narrow-minded. And I've never, ever said that ANYONE here doesn't have a right to their opinion. You do, but I certainly don't have to agree with them, do I? And, obviously I don't.

Those are the facts. They back me up, so I'll stand by them.


User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 750 times:

racists?  Insane

I think the wheels have fallen off your arguements, Dasa & Airmale. Why else would you start that nonsense? Just go away quietly and learn from your mistakes.



"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 750 times:

I've never been called that in my life, JetService!! It's kind of shocking when someone lables you that simply for pointing out some obvious facts.

In fact, Dasa, Airmale, Ikarus, I've had several instances in the last few weeks, working at the gates where I've stood against a flight crew singling out a person or persons at the boarding gate simply because they were dark-skinned and spoke a foreign tongue. One was Indian, one couple was from the U.A.E. and one was Pakistani. I highly doubt a racist would come to their aid.


User currently offlineIkarus From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 3524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 748 times:

Sorry Airmale, did not mean you. Got a bit careless during my anger....

And Alpha 1:
You made this statement: "Your nation-virtually the ENTIRE German Volk, allowed Hitler to brainwash them. And it helped lead to at least 50 million deaths in the Second World War."

What annoyed me is that - in fact - Germany is a very different nation today. The majority of the German Volk of the 1930s and 1940s might have directly or indirectly supported National Socialism. Most of them are dead now. The German people have little in common with them, apart from the language. If I dismissed your arguments simply because American settlers wiped out the "Indians", would that be fair? After all, you had no part in it - I am sure you would not really identify with an Indian-slaughtering cavalry marshall, would you?

The other bit that disturbed me is that you assume that America has bought the German opinion. Yes, America did support Germany and we're thankful for that. But does this support mean no German is ever to be allowed to disagree with any part of American policies? If that is the condition of the money, that would be pretty undemocratic.

Please note that I do not even support Cliffie's over-generalized rather extreme viewpoint. I just disagree with the way it was replied to....

Regards

Ikarus


User currently offlineCliffie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 752 times:

I have a fellow spotter (he has more pics on A.net than most) sitting in NC and I'm worried. He's a German exchange student, 17 years of age, and he's worried too. That's the story.

He can't understand why it's impossible to talk with his guest-parents about the situation. They don't seem to be interested in questions about reasons. Nor anybody else.

If you ask me about German history I could cry about it! In fact I hate it, our selfish politicans. Americans are just proud. Why? For what? Do they never question their leaders? Or iniciated wars far away?


User currently offlineBove From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 746 times:

Cliffie,

To examine "reasons" as you so simplistically put it would be to suggest that Islamic terrorists who rein down nihilstic destruction on innocent people all over the world (not just what happened at the WTC) have a legitimate voice in US foreign policy making. I'm sorry to have to point this out, but our particular government (and that of any Western industrialized democracy) represents the interests and welfare of its people, even though the existence of factions and rival political parties may present alternative viewpoints. Terrorism has no role to play whatsoever and is not a legitimate form of opposition.

Whether or not the US saved and rebuilt Western Europe post-WWII, it sickens me to think that there are a sizeable number of Europeans who think this is just desserts for whatever the US may have done.

These bastards have killed thousands of innocent people in the most horrific way imaginable, derailed the world economy into what is likely to be a prolonged recession, and are at work constructing anthrax weapons to kill untold thousands of others. This simply isn't the time to be pussyfooting around the issue asking "why do they hate us".

Its a clear example of kill or be killed--and I'm satisfied that our government does not deliberately target civilians the way hatemongering terrorists do with aplomb.

Finally, Nazi Germany may have been destructive, but today's terrorist threat is unjustifed outright nihilism---and that is a threat to any civilized person.


User currently offlineHepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 746 times:

it sickens me to think that there are a sizeable number of Europeans who think this is just desserts for whatever the US may have done.

Bove, I've not met any European that shares that view. Rather, most Europeans cannot understand why the U.S. refuses to confront the causes of this dilemna, and why, in the land of the free, no one is allowed, or even dares to examine what possibly fuels the resentment of so many terrorists. Their hating our freedoms and way of life sounds like such a weak and convenient excuse to most Europeans, primarily designed to tug at the nationalistic strings of the hearts of America.


User currently offlineLeftseat86 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 740 times:

Hepkat, you always seem to say exactly what I want to say but cannot! I wish I had that abilty to express myself through writing that you do...
I too believe America has been too quick to react, and has not examined the full extent off the problem that the world faces today.
-Clovis


User currently offlineBove From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 738 times:

Hepkat,

A vast majority of Americans cannot and will not accept that there is such a thing as a "cause" for such a horrifying, apocalyptic crime bent on causing the maximum amount of wanton carnage and destruction. Bin Laden and other thugs of his ilk are fanatics that have only recently discovered the Palestinian issue and the plight of Iraqi civilians but in reality have been training, funding, and commanding terrorists without any underlying political purpose for years---its just a political ploy to tug at the heartstrings of the Muslim world and sympathetic elements in the West and to this extent the bastards are media-savvy as well as ruthless.

Giuliani said it best....To accept such cause and effect relationships is to invite further attacks and send an unnacceptable signal that such attacks are legitmate responses to political greivances. There can be no moral equivalency.

He wants to destroy the West in anyway possible, and to appease these unspeakable acts in any way is to invite further destruction. Bush may wax lyrical on America's "freedom-loving" principles but the reality is it is exactly our freedoms and tolerance that drive these animals to commit such vicious unwarranted attacks.

Furthermore, where Europeans see "flag-waving" and jingoism, Americans see an act of solidarity in the face of ruthless destruction by a faceless enemy. We are being threatened as never before by wave after wave of unspecified further threats, anthrax popping up left and right, and rising anti-American sentiment throughout the world. These are very trying times and now is not the time for exploting political/economic/racial/religous differences.

For god sakes man, these bastards have destroyed the 2nd tallest buildings in the world! Doesn't anybody seem to realize this? Maybe a tour of ground zero followed by digging what's left of 5,500 human remains should be made mandatory.


User currently offlineLeftseat86 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 736 times:

I think it's horrible too Bove, but it's too bad the vast majority of Americans have not the slightest inkling of any of the suffering going on in other parts of the world... we seem to think we're the only ones but we're not. The U.S. Government has done MUCH worse...

User currently offlineBove From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 735 times:

Bove, I've not met any European that shares that view...

Its far more insidious than you seem to think, creating some kind of morbid tally whereby terrorism is justified because of Hiroshima, CIA-sponsored coups during the Cold War, etc....

Rather, most Europeans cannot understand why the U.S. refuses to confront the causes of this dilemna, and why, in the land of the free, no one is allowed, or even dares to examine what possibly fuels the resentment of so many terrorists

People are free to examine the causes of what you call a dilemma (I call it a threat to humanity) all they like...we are certainly a free country and liberals have certainly had their say regarding the war effort. Some have indeed called for a change in US stance in the Middle East, staged anti-War protest rallies, etc. I don't see how people are not "allowed" to do this and in fact there are significant differences in opinion here.

Personally, I don't give a damn what causes a terrorist to do what he does but I do know its rooted in a fundamental worldview that the United States is a nation of Christians and Jews who are not after a single terrorist or government but are bent on the worldwide annihilation of Islam. And anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. You don't appease a savage murderer...you bring him to justice.

Their hating our freedoms and way of life sounds like such a weak and convenient excuse to most Europeans, primarily designed to tug at the nationalistic strings of the hearts of America.

Truth is they do hate our way of life, specifically our tolerance and acceptance of other religous faiths and success as a nation. It directly spits of the face of their dark and medieval worldview that ours is an infidel nation diametrically opposed to their faith and with imperialist designs on the Muslim world.

Again where Europeans see nationalism, I see solidarity and banding together at a time of unprecedented national challenges.


25 Bove : If you want to argue that the US in times of all-consuming war that has threatened our very way of life has "done worse" then please go right ahead an
26 Leftseat86 : I agree with most of your post Bove, I just think that the current targets we are hitting are not going to solve anything...
27 Hepkat : Precisely Leftseat86. Bove, don't believe for a minute any European condones what happened in NY. You and I have both seen how Europeans openly wept a
28 Alpha 1 : Ikarus, didn't I make it imminently clear that I do admire what Germany has done to overcome what was seen as it's own self-destruction in the 1930's
29 Bove : Hepkat, Of course I realize Europeans were as saddened and touched (repulsed comes to mind also) by the horrible tragedy of 9/11. What I fail to under
30 FlyBoeing : LeftSeat: I think it's horrible too Bove, but it's too bad the vast majority of Americans have not the slightest inkling of any of the suffering going
31 Lehpron : Could the US media, on the day of the attacks, have been brainwashing Americans by replaying over and over again those Palestinians burning the americ
32 Bove : Lehpron, The celebration of some Palestinian groups was a little-reported event when compared to what else was happening that tragic day. Since then t
33 Indianguy : From where i see it, BOTH sides, (ie the West AND the Islamic Countries are being equally brainwashed by their respective governements.
34 Hepkat : Thank you Indianguy. We are at war, both sides WILL use the media to their best advantage. This is nothing new.
35 Alpha 1 : In warfare, Indianguy, it's called "Propoganda". It's been used in every modern war since the 1800's. It isn't brainwashing, as you so flippantly say,
36 Cliffie : Bove, Personally, I don't give a damn what causes a terrorist to do what he does Imagine you step into a bar to meet up with good old friends. One of
37 Bove : Cliffie, You last post was extremely rude and contained the usual stereotypical bullsh*t that we here in America are so stupid and backward that we ca
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