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Discrimination Alive And Well At Fifa!  
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 12
Posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1983 times:

Not only that, Get ready for some quality putrid refereeing during the World Cup!

http://sports.yahoo.com/wcs/news?slu...eeslanguage&prov=reuters&type=lgns

So they are willing to scrap aside really good referees that cannot speak English for those that can speak English. Wow, if you thought the 2002 World Cup had horrid calls, just wait till June...


My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEGGD From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 12443 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1918 times:

You think it's a bad thing?

You have issues, man.


User currently offlineAircop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1908 times:

Clue me in. The World Cup is in Germany. German, Spanish and French are also official languages of the FIFA. I guessing most of the referees are intelligent (maybe blind) individuals and probably know two languages anyway. Shouldn't they be able to find one of the official languages that they can speak to each other with or is it English is going to be the official language of the world?

User currently offlineWrenchBender From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1779 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1903 times:

Hey Derico, there is not a conspiracy to prevent Argentina from winning, no matter how much you want one. The only discrimination is against age, as Pier Luigi Collina was forced to retire. He was by far the greatest ever football referee.

WrenchBender



Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1882 times:

Quoting EGGD (Reply 1):
You think it's a bad thing?

Of course it is! So the good referees can't be selected because they can't speak English, you agree with that? You place language skills ahead of competency skills in officiating in a sport? I think you are the one with issues if that's so.

Quoting Aircop (Reply 2):
Shouldn't they be able to find one of the official languages that they can speak to each other with or is it English is going to be the official language of the world?

No because it has nothing to do with anything.

Wrenchbender:

And that is wrong too. And don't bring the nationality card into it as I'm really just talking about the refereeing, which will hurt EVERY team.

No one should be forced to speak a language in a line of work that does not require it whatsoever to excel at. It's wrong.
ps- I can't believe my post got removed!

[Edited 2006-03-22 04:41:47]


My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4870 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1866 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 4):
And that is wrong too. And don't bring the nationality card into it as I'm really just talking about the refereeing, which will hurt EVERY team.

I seem to recall your Argentine Navy seizes British trawler thread. You my friend seem to have a chip on your shoulder.

English is spoken by at least one player on each team. This is not an assertion, this is a fact. No other language enjoys this coverage, not one. Furthmore, since they have decided to use teams of referees they too should have a common language.

Imagine you have Togo vs Korea. Do you think even one person on either team speaks a word of Spanish? Come on... quit shit disturbing.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1863 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 5):
I seem to recall your Argentine Navy seizes British trawler thread. You my friend seem to have a chip on your shoulder.

I feel sorry for all of you. I can't bring one topic up without you guys not bringing some past topic? Did I once mention anything about a trawler?? The chip is in your shoulders, you find a boogie man in every issue someone brings up.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 5):
Furthmore, since they have decided to use teams of referees they too should have a common language.

Why can't there be a team of referees from French-speaking countries, some from Spanish ones, other from German ones, and so on? It would have absolutely NO effect on the officiating if the referees in one particular team speak the SAME language even if it's one other than English, as long as they all speak the same language. Anyone understand this?

I wouldn't be opposed to one person on each team to speak English, to communicate to the players (evem though all of which speak English as you claim), but to force ALL of them to speak english and to ONLY have English-speaking teams is wrong.

And it does give an advantage to English teams, because believe it or not, language is also culture, and gestures, fcial expressions and the like can be interpreted differently by different people that speak different languages. It can potentially lead to bad calls of judgment on when to yellow card a a player for example.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 5):
Imagine you have Togo vs Korea. Do you think even one person on either team speaks a word of Spanish? Come on... quit shit disturbing.

When did I make this something about Spanish specifically? It seems to me you are all assuming things out of the blue. That tells me something indeed...

I'm sorry, but you all seem to have a quite disturbing attitude, seemingly intolerant.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2571 posts, RR: 31
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
So they are willing to scrap aside really good referees that cannot speak English for those that can speak English.

Derico just one question:

Which VERY GOOD referees are being excluded with this decision?

Eso es todo  Wink

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 7):
Which VERY GOOD referees are being excluded with this decision?

Well, none perhaps, but that's a catch 22 question isn't it?

There are no very good referees as we know.  Wink

That said, if you don't speak English, FIFA will not allow you to referee. Sorry but that is wrong and I would say the exact SAME thing if they had said no-one that does not speak German, or Spanish, can referee.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20499 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1832 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 6):
but to force ALL of them to speak english and to ONLY have English-speaking teams is wrong.

From the article you linked:

"It's important for an international team that when the referees get together they can communicate in one language," FIFA general secretary Urs Linsi said at a workshop for potential World Cup referees on Tuesday.

The referees are a team themselves, and the organizers want them all to be able to communicate with each other. They just happened to pick English.

Quoting Derico (Reply 6):
And it does give an advantage to English teams, because believe it or not, language is also culture, and gestures, fcial expressions and the like can be interpreted differently by different people that speak different languages. It can potentially lead to bad calls of judgment on when to yellow card a a player for example.

Now I'm just a silly American with no understanding of what the rest of the world calls football, but which facial gestures gets a player yellow carded?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4870 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1796 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 6):

When did I make this something about Spanish specifically? It seems to me you are all assuming things out of the blue. That tells me something indeed...

I was using Spanish to demonstrate my point to you because you obviously speak Spanish.
What happens when you have Angola vs Russia or Saudi Arabia vs Korea, does anyone on these teams speak Spanish, French or German? Very unlikely. You could argue that Portuguese is close enough to Spanish for the Angolans but that would be a stupid argument as clarity is imperative in match situations.

You need to stop taking things so personally. As for my bringing up your past posts, well I was simply trying to make a point that you have been known to be hugely outnumbered in threads and still maintain that you were right.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1768 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
You need to stop taking things so personally. As for my bringing up your past posts, well I was simply trying to make a point that you have been known to be hugely outnumbered in threads and still maintain that you were right.

If we as a society thought that people are right or wrong based on being outnumbered, then we should still believe that the Earth is flat and the Sun is hanging from a glass ceiling...

ps- What was everyone right 'on'?? Or me for that matter? As I recall most of the other topics are matters of opinion, opinions really can't be proven right or wrong.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 10):
What happens when you have Angola vs Russia or Saudi Arabia vs Korea, does anyone on these teams speak Spanish, French or German? Very unlikely. You could argue that Portuguese is close enough to Spanish for the Angolans but that would be a stupid argument as clarity is imperative in match situations.

But you see when was this a problem in the last 14 World Cups?? Now all of the sudden is a problem?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 9):
Now I'm just a silly American with no understanding of what the rest of the world calls football, but which facial gestures gets a player yellow carded?

It seriously could. If a player happens to argue with the referee about a call he does not like, which happens a lot, the English speaking players will gain an advantage in the way the resrtrain their language or gestures, so as to not get into foul trouble by getting on the wrong side of the referee.

A non-English speaking player is at a clear disadvantage here. He may not know that a certain word is really offensive for an English-speaking refereee, or a particular gesture, and the player may get unfairly yellow carded or ejected.

I think England, the United States and Australia will have a tactical advantage here.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineEGGD From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 12443 posts, RR: 35
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1759 times:

They never said that the referee's must have English as a first language, just that they need to be able to have a reasonable proficiency in English so they can communicate easily between each other and so to create a team spirit, as pointed out clearly in the article. Without this, I think referee's and linesemen will have greater clarity in decision making and will be less swayed by player actions as when you have four officials who can clearly communicate a referee will be less isolated and so less influenced by players as he has his other officials to fall back on.

You are just using this as one more excuse for your reasoning that the whole world is against you and your country and we do everything within our powers to prevent you from competing on a level playing field. Once again you are wrong. I can't believe you couldn't connect the dots when you read the article and realized that it was a positive step towards better refereeing within the tournements.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1753 times:

Quoting EGGD (Reply 12):
I can't believe you couldn't connect the dots when you read the article and realized that it was a positive step towards better refereeing within the tournements.

I connected the dots... And language is culture, ipso facto culture is language.

Anyone that has learned another language will tell you that the actual learning of the language is closely tied with learning the gestures, idiomatic expressions, and manners of the people that speak that language. To learn how to properly behave in a social environment were such language is spoken.

Quoting EGGD (Reply 12):
You are just using this as one more excuse for your reasoning that the whole world is against you and your country and we do everything within our powers to prevent you from competing on a level playing field

This will affect non-European language teams much more than anyone else, so this reasoning is, again, flawed, by bringing over side issues such as this. Which begs the question why did you bring it up?

That said, there is no doubt that all countries are actively working all the time to f-ck themselves over. Only a naive cave dweller would believe otherwise!



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20499 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1751 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 13):
And language is culture, ipso facto culture is language.

Then in all fairness, all footballers and referees worldwide should only communicate in Esperanto.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26424 posts, RR: 76
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1747 times:

I don't understand the requirement that the refs demonstrate written proficiency in English. So FIFA, rightly or wrongly, wants them to all be able to talk to eachother, but do they want them to also be able to write love notes?


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4870 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1717 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 11):

If we as a society thought that people are right or wrong based on being outnumbered, then we should still believe that the Earth is flat and the Sun is hanging from a glass ceiling...

So you're still taking things personally and ignoring my advice. Sure...

Quoting Derico (Reply 11):

ps- What was everyone right 'on'?? Or me for that matter? As I recall most of the other topics are matters of opinion, opinions really can't be proven right or wrong.

Well here are some of your quality posts:
"Is the position of this forum that some nationalities are more worth than others??" in reference to ANCFlyer

I think we're seeing clear pattern or sensitivity about you nationality and language. Incidentally I defended you in that thread so don't think I'm against you in any way.

Quoting Derico (Reply 11):

But you see when was this a problem in the last 14 World Cups?? Now all of the sudden is a problem?

Player referee communication has been an issue ina few world cups actually and even if it hadn't there is nothing wrong with making a proactive change.

I see you cleverly avoided replying to my matchups scenarios, very smooth.  Yeah sure

Incidentally don't you find it discriminatory that A.net is only in English?
YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1699 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 4):
So the good referees can't be selected because they can't speak English, you agree with that? You place language skills ahead of competency skills in officiating in a sport?

-
While it in single cases may be negative as there may be a "provincial" but otherwise superb referee around who only speaks German or French or Spanish I am fairly certain that most good referees in the world who are active internationally have an acceptable command of English. I presume that FIFA does NOT demand a command of English OK for "Ox-bridge", but just a sufficient one for the job to be done.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1699 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 4):
So the good referees can't be selected because they can't speak English, you agree with that? You place language skills ahead of competency skills in officiating in a sport?

-
While it in single cases may be negative as there may be a "provincial" but otherwise superb referee around who only speaks German or French or Spanish I am fairly certain that most good referees in the world who are active internationally have an acceptable command of English. I presume that FIFA does NOT demand a command of English OK for "Ox-bridge", but just a sufficient one for the job to be done.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1679 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 16):
Incidentally don't you find it discriminatory that A.net is only in English?
YOWza

Uhh... no. Because here you can CHOOSE to participate or not. There are aviation forums in other languages, at least there are in Spanish. No one here is coerced to know English to participate. They can have their stuff translated online, and while not exactly 'pretty' to read, it would make it generally understandable. A.net does not require you as a register 'compulsory' to know English.

Nor have I ever brought the issue up or suggested, as quite a few others have, that A.net allow forums in other languages.Thus your are mixing apples with brussel sprouts trying to tie this topic with some other issue.

In that other thread you mentioned, someone was making fun of hundreds of dead people 'at the bottom of the Atlantic'. I was simply very angry at a seeming double-standard. I don't know about you, but had I done such a similar comment but alluding to some other 'events' relating to the poster's nationality, it would have been removed immediately. Isn't treating two similar things differently a double-standard?

Quoting YOWza (Reply 16):
Player referee communication has been an issue ina few world cups actually and even if it hadn't there is nothing wrong with making a proactive change

I don't think it has been an issue between the referees, almost always FIFA would pair referees that speak the same language. They don't need to be talking to the players about their judgments, they just referee and the players must accept the calls. That is why the examples regarding the games you mentioned most probably would have been 'resolved' in the manner that has been suggested, that is someone and the referee speaking the same language, in many instances probably English.

Since it's probable than in previous World Cups referees and players were already DE FACTO speaking in English with each others, such being the case, why then make it an actual official policy?



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1673 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 19):
Since it's probable than in previous World Cups referees and players were already DE FACTO speaking in English with each others, such being the case, why then make it an actual official policy?

-
well, you of course are factually right. It however looks as if FIFA wants to have English as THE language of the referees so that they no longer have to consider the language of them.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1673 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 20):
well, you of course are factually right. It however looks as if FIFA wants to have English as THE language of the referees so that they no longer have to consider the language of them.

Well then that is wrong. People should not have a certain language forced down upon them!

Let the referees and player choose. What ever happened to the freedom of choice?



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3982 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1661 times:

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
So they are willing to scrap aside really good referees that cannot speak English for those that can speak English.

FIFA as an institution has been rotten to the core for a long time. If only that was their only problerm...



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1655 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 21):
Let the referees and player choose. What ever happened to the freedom of choice?

Suppose that English would be the language of choice, in case of "elections" in three rounds, in which Spanish and German would loose out first/second, and French third. And again, I expect that any internationally active referee speaks English anyway. Why then such a "decision" ? Possibly only to show how important they are for some bureaucrats in FIFA. But for sure no reason to get excited about.


User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4870 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1636 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 19):
here you can CHOOSE to participate or not.

First thing's first I was being sarcastic, but since you bring it up participation in the WC is not obligatory. If you can convince Argentina's FA to drop out of the cup for this I'm sure Canada would be happy to send our team.

Quoting Derico (Reply 19):
I don't think it has been an issue between the referees,

Not between referees, but between officials and players.

I understand your frustration but I think this is something that is here to say regardless of how much or little you or I like it. FIFA are know for bone-head moves. Just look at their rankings, the USA is ranked above France, England, Spain, Nigeria, Italy and a number of other countries that could pound the living shit out of them with 8 players.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
25 Derico : It did boycott back in 1938, 1950, 1954 and 1958 for actually not totally 'dissimilar' reasons... so it's not like it hasn't happened before!
26 ZRH : These arguments are very amusing and childish. It is absolutely ok that FIFA wants their international refs knowing English at least enough to communi
27 Post contains images L410Turbolet : I don't think nobody forces anything on anyone. FIFA just wants to make sure there is a guarantee of a "common denominator" language and I don't thin
28 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : over-reactions ?
29 Post contains images Derico : Because it is your complacency which makes sure no one west of Portugal knows where the heck your country is! I can walk out on the street right now
30 ZRH : Do you have a paranoia? Argentina is one of the biggest countries in the world and I am sure that almost all people here in Switzerland know where it
31 ME AVN FAN : there apparently is a double-misunderstanding. He referred to Czechia, and stated that people in Latin America did NOT excel in vast knowledge about
32 Derico : Exactly. Most people still think it as Czechkoslovakia....
33 Matt72033 : like pilots? for instance?
34 Post contains images L410Turbolet : That could be very well true and we've got quite used to that over the years, so if that was supposed to be an insult your effort was futile. But nic
35 Derico : That is a life and death matter. It's very different. I would hardly make the WC a life or death matter, thus why I make it an issue here and not in
36 AM744 : That might not be true. They reached quarter-finals last WC whereas Argentina and France couldn't make it past first round. You don't get to quarter-
37 EWS : Maybe slightly off-topic.. Did they ever find Sol Cambell? Lew
38 Post contains images L410Turbolet : I'm glad to hear that.
39 Derico : Yes, but you also then agree that ignorant people are not good for society, since you are not disputing my statement. People in a dominant language d
40 Matt72033 : tell that to the families of fans who get stabbed to death by opposing fans because of what happens on the pitch![Edited 2006-03-24 16:13:43]
41 Post contains images Lindy : You are wrong. The greatest ever football referee was my father Rafal
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