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Religious Law > Death Penalty > Socialism  
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 11
Posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1633 times:

I don't understand this whole big deal about the person in Afghanistan being tried for converting to Christianity.

Why is THAT wrong exactly? It is simply the way many people in those countries view the role of law can reach. To them, it is an acceptable social punishement. Just like the death penalty or massive taxation on wealthier people in other parts of the world. Who is the rest of the world exactly to judge any of this right or wrong??

Do not many people in the US get upset when others judge them on the Death Penalty? Do not many Europeans get upset when others chastize them on their Socialist income redistributing rules?

What is the difference betwen any of those situations?


My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineRobertNL070 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2003, 4532 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1626 times:

I may be very mistaken, but I presume that Roman Catholicism is the predominant religion in Argentina. If in Argentina a Roman Catholic converts to Islam, will he or she be condemned to death?

Regards, Robert  bouncy 



Youth is a gift of nature. Age is a work of art.
User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1624 times:

hmmmmmmmmmm
a human life is involved..................  sarcastic 
A supposed democratic government is going against probably the most basic democratic principle.

Although chastation (did I spell it wright) of people in socialist Europe and Death penalty are both morally wrong in my opinion, what is happening in Afghanistan is the worst of all three.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 1):
I may be very mistaken, but I presume that Roman Catholicism is the predominant religion in Argentina. If in Argentina a Roman Catholic converts to Islam, will he or she be condemned to death?

But we are talking about Afghanistan. There, it is not seen the way it is seen by you. My question is what makes your way of thinking right and theirs wrong.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1606 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 3):
But we are talking about Afghanistan. There, it is not seen the way it is seen by you. My question is what makes your way of thinking right and theirs wrong.

Do you believe that there are certain natural laws that transcend any man made laws?


User currently offlineRobertNL070 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2003, 4532 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1606 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 3):
But we are talking about Afghanistan. There, it is not seen the way it is seen by you. My question is what makes your way of thinking right and theirs wrong

I'm afraid that this does not even merit a response.

Regards, Robert  bouncy 



Youth is a gift of nature. Age is a work of art.
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1600 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 4):
Do you believe that there are certain natural laws that transcend any man made laws?

But there-in lies the catch-22: different men have different laws or beliefs that transcend their status as mortal beings, thus laws or beliefs that come from a 'higher' source. Then it simply depends on the deity(ies) you worship what kind of 'natural' laws can or cannot transcend man made laws.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4588 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1587 times:

The clerics are punishing people for leaving their religion by killing them.
This proves Islam is not a religion of peace but rather one of fear.

There is a difference in that in the rest of the free world a person is not denied the right to live based on their religious choice. therefore the rest of the world can condemn it.

Afghanistan can go through with it if they like and allow him to be killed by religious wankers, but the end of it is that other societies will ridicule and not respect the authority of Afghanistan in world affairs.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1575 times:

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 7):
There is a difference in that in the rest of the free world a person is not denied the right to live based on their religious choice. therefore the rest of the world can condemn it.

Should Europe be ridiculed by their rich an diverse history in such manners?

It comes down to what people in different cultures perceive as punishable.


Quoting CasInterest (Reply 7):
Afghanistan can go through with it if they like and allow him to be killed by religious wankers, but the end of it is that other societies will ridicule and not respect the authority of Afghanistan in world affairs.

Why should anyone respect a state that carries out executions?



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1563 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 6):
But there-in lies the catch-22: different men have different laws or beliefs that transcend their status as mortal beings, thus laws or beliefs that come from a 'higher' source. Then it simply depends on the deity(ies) you worship what kind of 'natural' laws can or cannot transcend man made laws.

I said nothing of a "higher" source or dieties. I believe that there are certain things that are absolutely wrong regardless of what religion or set of moral beliefs you subscribe to.

For example - to kill a child simply because it has blue eyes instead of brown; .... is a girl and not a boy; ....is black and not white; etc... would be wrong in any book. Your moral code or religion may attempt to offer a justification for it, but it is wrong in an absolute sense.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1558 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 9):
For example - to kill a child simply because it has blue eyes instead of brown; .... is a girl and not a boy; ....is black and not white; etc... would be wrong in any book. Your moral code or religion may attempt to offer a justification for it, but it is wrong in an absolute sense.

Killing as an act is wrong, you are right. On that it can be agreed. But a state execution for breaking the law in a certain state is a different matter.

You might find it barbaric, but if in that country converting to a religion is a crime punishable by death, I don't see how the West can morally stand on a higher ground considering it's past and the fact that several western nations still conduct executions as a recourse for certain crimes, and not all of them killing (treason comes to mind).

What if I from country A find the punishment of death for Treason barbaric...



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1530 times:

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
To them, it is an acceptable social punishement.

This may be true, but that is where the international community can flew thier collective muscles. There are plenty of wrongs in the world, adding more to the list of wrongs doesnt make any of them right.

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Just like the death penalty or massive taxation on wealthier people in other parts of the world.

To compare the death penalty with massive taxation is comparing a paper cut to a gunshot wound.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 7):
The clerics are punishing people for leaving their religion by killing them.
This proves Islam is not a religion of peace but rather one of fear.

True, best line I have read all day.

Quoting Derico (Reply 10):
I don't see how the West can morally stand on a higher ground considering it's past and the fact that several western nations still conduct executions as a recourse for certain crimes,

See you blame the west for this, it really is the international community who needs to stand up. Which it seems to me one of your arguments are that because a law is made up by one country, no other countries have the right to say its wrong. Which is a novel idea. But Ill give you an example of how the international community failed miserably in stepping in to stop genocide. First one that comes to mind is the Nuremberg laws. Instituted under Nazi Germany to more or less persecute the jews and enabled what became the holocaust.

Quoting Derico (Reply 10):
and not all of them killing (treason comes to mind).

The reason for a death penalty for treason in many cases is that A. it can cost the lives of many citizens. B. it can endanger those came lives. C. While capital punishment is not much of a detterence to murderers, the reasons people commit treason are often different and capital punishment does seem to serve as a deterrent in the case of treason.


User currently offlineA332 From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1526 times:

The fact that people are so backwards thinking that they would actually kill someone for switching their beliefs of one package of bullshit to another package of bullshit is laughable on one hand... and terrifying in the other.

Religion is truly the root of all evil in this world.



Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4304 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1526 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 11):
See you blame the west for this, it really is the international community who needs to stand up

You are right, I meant the international community at large. But, non-Western nations usually don't claim to have the higher moral ground to begin with thus stay quiet usually on things like this.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1520 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 13):
But, non-Western nations usually don't claim to have the higher moral ground to begin with thus stay quiet usually on things like this.

They usually dont claim to have the higher moral ground because they dont in most cases. How can Afghanistan and thier religious laws claim that, they blew up ancient Buddha statues because it wasnt islamic. They are going to kill what appears to be by most accounts mentally ill man for switching over to believing in the wrong boogyman.
How can Saudi Arabia take a stand with us? They chop the heads of dissenters in public.
In Singapore you can be caned ruthlessly for petty property crimes.
I dont believe in attacking the practices of other sovergn nations, nor do I care for it when others attack some of the laws I live under, especially because I can criticize them myself which I often do, But there are human rights, chief among them in my book is being able to choose which religion one wants to believe in or better yet none of them at all. To kill someone for that shows an ignorance and intolerance that is unaccepable for the people who run a country.


User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1718 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1506 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 10):
I don't see how the West can morally stand on a higher ground considering it's past...

...,and I don't see how you fail to understand that it is precisely because of that past that the West is so strongly opposed to the things going on in parts of the Middle East.

The criminalization of ideas in Muslim culture is very similar to some of the practices in western culture a thousand years ago. A more appropriate question for you is what gives us the right to stand by and do nothing when our fellow human beings are being murdered, not for what they've done, but for what they think?



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlineTRVYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1369 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1453 times:

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Why is THAT wrong exactly?

Muslim law is applicable to a Muslim and not a Christian. The sharia law is not applicable to the man in question. The man didn't have a choice to be born a muslim.


User currently offlineAfterburner From Indonesia, joined Jun 2005, 1210 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1427 times:

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 7):
The clerics are punishing people for leaving their religion by killing them.

This thing does not happen in Indonesia, the country with the most Muslim population in the world. There is no law that prevents people for converting religion. It's true that people who convert to another religion are often expelled by their families and communities, but they will be embraced by people from their new religions. My wife has an aunt that converted to Roman Catholics. We were very disappointed at first, but we could understand and accept her decision. And we still have good relationship with her. My wife and I also have good friends who converted to Islam.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 7):
This proves Islam is not a religion of peace but rather one of fear.



Quoting A332 (Reply 12):
Religion is truly the root of all evil in this world.

I believe that most (especially the major ones) religions teachings are good. But some of the followers misinterpret the teachings for their own benefit.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14011 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1417 times:

You guys don't get it.

It is NOT about religion, it is NOT about whichever god this person prays to.

It is a powergame. The moment this man converted to Christianity he essentially told all the Imams to f*ck off. Their rules are not his rules anymore. The bearded old men don't have power over him anymore.
They can't let this happen, because others might get ideas about leaving their station and starting to think on their own. So they have to set an example:
Look, anybody who dares to leave our community and thus questions our preaching about the "pie in the sky" our power and our position to rule is a traitor and will be executed.

We had the same in Europe 500 years ago. Why do you think people got burned on the stake? Why had the medieval emperor Henry IV to crawl on his knees at Canossa and ask the pope for forgiveness after the pope declared him excommunicated and an outlaw because they argued about who controlled the bishops in the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation (who were back then a formidable force with armies of their own).
It still happens today in some backward Christian communities as well, thozgh not necessarily as violent. There a person who dares to question the local priest or preacher will find himself ostracised and his life made hell until he leaves the place.


This is why e.g. the Russian Orthodox church reacts so allergically about Roman-Catholic missionaries in Russia. This is why Hindu mobs led by priests have been killing Christian missionaries in India.
Organised religion has always just been about power.

Jan


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