TACAA320 From Costa Rica, joined Aug 2004, 7307 posts, RR: 51 Posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1809 times:
" Or clerics criminally insane?
It's not been long since Muslims around the world were incited to violent, self-destructive and nonsensical tantrums over a handful of cartoons that delivered important and truthful messages about the perception by much of the world of the behavior of Muslim clerics and their followers. Yet, the Muslim clerics among the liberated people of Afghanistan insist upon the death of a man who renounced Islam sixteen years ago (that it was in favor of Christianity is hardly relevant). These clerics claim anger with the West for expressing consternation and attempting to influence the Afghan government to intervene on behalf of Abdul Rahman and they claim that if he is not executed in accord with their interpretation of Muslim Sharia, they will incite the good citizens of Afghanistan to tear him to pieces.
Islam is, by no means, alone among religions in providing psychic tools to, so-called, leaders to control the emotions, therefore consciousness and the behavior of their brain-washed-from-birth constituents. By associating themselves with god and prophet, claiming specialness in their understanding of just what it is that god wants, needs, demands, etc., these charlatans aggrandize themselves and wield near parental power over the psyche of their constituents. Of course, to wield power over the psyche of masses of people is to wield power over governments, industries and fortunes.
No, Islam is not alone. The U.S. has its Elmer Gantry Gang of big-business tax-exempt religious power mongers. But most societies of the West have matured sufficiently to keep the behavior of the charlatans of the supernatural in check most of the time and their power attenuated. Or is it channeled? As long as the cash flows, the vote empowers and government policy and law can be purchased, religious leaders of the West have sufficient means to satisfy their lusts without resorting, too frequently, to inciting their followers to rank insanity? "
Luisde8cd From Venezuela, joined Aug 2004, 2461 posts, RR: 50 Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1799 times:
I think that Islam culture isn't compatible with Western culture. We can't try to impose our "democracy" in their countries and the muslims living in the Western world cannot expect us to bend over to their cultural demands. As simple as that.... and it has been like this since the Crusades when both worlds first fought each other.
I personally hope that the EU doesn't accept Turkey as a new member. I'm currently trying to get the documents needed to prove that my grandma's mother was Spanish so that my grandma can get Spanish citizenship and then pass it on to my mother and me. Then I will vote against if there's a referendum for allowing Turkey in the EU.
And no I'm not a fascist right-winger or a xenophobic person, I just think that we cannot lose our Western values because of Islam. If Europe muslims don't like the cartoons, then go move to Iran.
Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
Viasa we miss you!. Good times will return after Chavez is gone!
Eaglekeeper101 From United States, joined Aug 2005, 272 posts, RR: 4 Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1795 times:
I don't know if I would be so charitable with praise for the overall evolution of Western theologians, given the behavior of some of them...but that's besides the point.
I will, therefore, offer a more salient point. God, no matter how referred to, is not the problem. People are the problem. Let's face it - some followers need closer supervision than others do, and in my humble opinion, there is no single belief system that needs more watching than another.
"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." - Bahá'u'lláh
Eaglekeeper101 From United States, joined Aug 2005, 272 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1789 times:
Erikwilliam From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 20 Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1728 times:
Quoting Eaglekeeper101 (Reply 2): some followers need closer supervision than others do, and in my humble opinion, there is no single belief system that needs more watching than another.
(insert clapping hands)
Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
AerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1724 times:
Well, you have religious nuts everywhere, is the most I will say.
I'm against religious nuttiness anywhere it rears its ugly head, including here in the U.S. of A. As I've said before, the "creation science" thing is something I have big problems with, and that's a staple of the extreme religious right, in my view.
Oh don't do that, you'll have the Hindus up in arms
Indeed, you are right. God, Allah, Yahweh is not the problem. The problems are often to be found in the interpretations of the Scriptures written in His name.
Regards, Robert
The mind is like a parachute: it works better when open.
Eaglekeeper101 From United States, joined Aug 2005, 272 posts, RR: 4 Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1696 times:
Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 7): Quoting Eaglekeeper101 (Reply 4):
What if we lend you a cattle prod instead?
Oh don't do that, you'll have the Hindus up in arms
Indeed! I forgot to consider that. Thanks!
"The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." - Bahá'u'lláh
Cairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1648 times:
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 1): We can't try to impose our "democracy" in their countries and the muslims living in the Western world cannot expect us to bend over to their cultural demands.
This would be a good start at maintaining peace in the world; that and solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
There is nothing wrong with just saying to each other: in your countries, you make the rules and as long as you don't attack us, we'll leave you alone. The west doesn't have to try to change the Middle East/ Muslims constantly and the Muslims must tolerate whatever happens solely in the West.
George Bush either believed or was deceived into believing that much of the Muslim world, especially Iraq, was something like occupied France during WW2 - a basically democtratic people yearning for western style government. This is not the case and the Arab-Muslim world should be left alone.
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 1): I think that Islam culture isn't compatible with Western culture
Not true, tolerant western cultures and moderate Islam work well. Just look at my province here in Canada, lots of muslim, no problems. There was talk of some muslims trying to introduce Sharia, this was stmaped out early and moderacy has prevailed on both parts.
Not being a muslim myself I try to keep an open mind with those willing to keep an open mind about things I may believe in. So like I said moderacy is the answer.
YOWza
Airports flown this year:RGN,KUL,LHR,LAX,YOW,YTZ,MDW,SEA,SCL,EZE,AEP,IGR,MDZ,IAD,YVR
TIA From Albania, joined Mar 2006, 396 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1618 times:
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 1): I think that Islam culture isn't compatible with Western culture. We can't try to impose our "democracy" in their countries and the muslims living in the Western world cannot expect us to bend over to their cultural demands. As simple as that.... and it has been like this since the Crusades when both worlds first fought each other.
I personally hope that the EU doesn't accept Turkey as a new member. I'm currently trying to get the documents needed to prove that my grandma's mother was Spanish so that my grandma can get Spanish citizenship and then pass it on to my mother and me. Then I will vote against if there's a referendum for allowing Turkey in the EU.
And no I'm not a fascist right-winger or a xenophobic person, I just think that we cannot lose our Western values because of Islam. If Europe muslims don't like the cartoons, then go move to Iran.
And let me say that you don't know what you are talking about. Case in point: Albania, a mostly Muslim country, but with more religion tolerance and as liberal as any Western society. If you didn't see the mosques, you wouldn't even know there was a Muslim majority in Albania. Heck, I am the product of Christian-Muslim "compatibility" (to use one of your words). Although raised Christian, my mom is Muslim, while my dad is Eastern Orthodox. For as long as I can remember, we have celebrated both types of religious holidays. So stop thinking that being Western and being Muslim are mutually exclusive.
Turkey is a country, which I have personally visited, and you are wrong about Turkey too. There might be a million reasons why Turkey is not ready to join the EU, but being mostly Muslim is not one of them. Turkey is extremely tolerant and liberal. Did you know that there are 200 CHURCHES in Istanbul, or that the HQ of the Eastern Orthodox Church is there?
However, I will say that I was quite disappointed with Erdogan's comments during the cartoon controversy.
I don't think Spain, or the EU needs close minded individuals like you.
Luisde8cd From Venezuela, joined Aug 2004, 2461 posts, RR: 50 Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1562 times:
Quoting YOWza (Reply 10): Not true, tolerant western cultures and moderate Islam work well. Just look at my province here in Canada, lots of muslim, no problems. There was talk of some muslims trying to introduce Sharia, this was stmaped out early and moderacy has prevailed on both parts.
Not true. Just because muslims and westerners get along in your province, that doesn't mean it is like this in the rest of the world. Clearly and sadly it ain't that way. If things were like you said, we would live in a happier and more peaceful world.
Quoting TIA (Reply 11): And let me say that you don't know what you are talking about.
I know what I'm talking about, who are you to tell me what I know and what I don't?
Quoting TIA (Reply 11): Heck, I am the product of Christian-Muslim "compatibility"
There are always a few counted exceptions to each rule.
Quoting TIA (Reply 11): For as long as I can remember, we have celebrated both types of religious holidays
Good for you.
Quoting TIA (Reply 11): So stop thinking that being Western and being Muslim are mutually exclusive.
Again, you can't stop me from thinking what I think, I'm free to think whatever I want just as you are. Read again my post, I'm not saying they are mutually exclusive, I just say that they aren't compatible (contradicted values).
Quoting TIA (Reply 11): Did you know that there are 200 CHURCHES in Istanbul
200 churches in a city of 11.3 million is really pathetic if you ask me.
Quoting TIA (Reply 11): I don't think Spain, or the EU needs close minded individuals like you.
I ain't close minded. The fact that I don't agree with your points of view, doesn't make me a close-minded person. On the other hand, you've proven to lack serious debate skills and your best way to express your opinion has been reduced to attack me which is what usually the ignorant people do.
And guess what? Spain does need me, they are seriously lacking Computer Engineers and young people that are willing to have children .
Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
[Edited 2006-03-28 05:58:12]
Viasa we miss you!. Good times will return after Chavez is gone!
TIA From Albania, joined Mar 2006, 396 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1535 times:
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 12): There are always a few counted exceptions to each rule.
More like the norm, than a few counted examples as you put it. Or do you know what the situation in Albania is better than me?
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 12): Again, you can't stop me from thinking what I think, I'm free to think whatever I want just as you are. Read again my post, I'm not saying they are mutually exclusive, I just say that they aren't compatible (contradicted values).
Whatever you are smoking, I want it too.
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 12): 200 churches in a city of 11.3 million is really pathetic if you ask me.
And how many mosques are there in Caracas? 200 churches is not a pathetic number in a mostly muslim city. Did you check to see how many Christians live in Istanbul? Also, did you ever consider the fact that Turks might not be as religious as say Venezuelans, or maybe that people don't need a building to connect with God? Again, as I said you don't know what you are talking about. And the number of churches is proof of the religious tolerance in Turkey.
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 12): I ain't close minded. The fact that I don't agree with your points of view, doesn't make me a close-minded person. On the other hand, you've proven to lack serious debate skills and your best way to express your opinion has been reduced to attack me which is what usually the ignorant people do.
If you make blanket statements like that, guess what: you are a close minded individual. What you are advocating is segregation. Do I have to show you what that is?
And how have I shown a lack of serious debate skills? Maybe because I gave you real life examples that invalidated your claims? You make generalizations about something you know nothing about. Have you ever been to Turkey? Turkey is more liberal than your Venezuela and many other Latin American countries when it comes to social issues such as abortion. As I said, Turkey might not be ready to join the EU, but not because of religion. After all, it's the European Union, not the Christian Union. Religion and politics should not mix.
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 12): And guess what? Spain does need me, they are seriously lacking Computer Engineers and young people that are willing to have children .
Don't worry about Spain needing you. They can get plenty of proper European computer engineers from the Eastern Europe part of the EU.
Jafa39 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1528 times:
Quoting TACAA320 (Thread starter): But most societies of the West have matured sufficiently to keep the behavior of the charlatans of the supernatural in check most of the time and their power attenuated.
You are kidding...right???
Quoting Eaglekeeper101 (Reply 2): there is no single belief system that needs more watching than another.
Well said that man!!!
Quoting Cairo (Reply 9): a basically democtratic people yearning for western style government. This is not the case and the Arab-Muslim world should be left alone.
A very good point and one that needs to be raised more often. I have spent this last week talking with Muslim Communities, they are quite happy to be Muslims, they think some of their leaders are nuts, like many Yanks think about Bush and Poms about Blair.
Too many assumptions being made, that's why I am putting together some projects with Refugees in NZ so understanding can replace prejudice.
A colleague was asked if she felt scared going into Muslim homes....get a grip world! Their houses aren't all stacked to the rafters with AK47's, hell, The Mongrel Mob and Black Power would probably outgun the Taliban!!
ThereAndBack From Turkey, joined Aug 2005, 657 posts, RR: 5 Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1523 times:
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 12): 200 churches in a city of 11.3 million is really pathetic if you ask me.
Should they build more just because you think it's pathetic? Turkey is tolerant more tolerant than you. I doubt you have been there to know how tolerant or intolerant the people are. 200 churches is good for a country with a muslim majority.
LTU932 From Mexico, joined Jan 2006, 12305 posts, RR: 58 Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1495 times:
Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 7): Indeed, you are right. God, Allah, Yahweh is not the problem. The problems are often to be found in the interpretations of the Scriptures written in His name.
This is exactly the problem. Misunderstandings can be one of the worst evils in the world. Misinterpretations are the same as misunderstandigs, though in some cases people interpret what they want to interpret.
I personally see Islam as a religion of peace, a religion that has never preached that war is a means to an end. Many Muslim countries, especially in the Arab World, are full of rich history and of beautiful places to visit. Unfortunately, most of the people today think of Islama religion that breeds terrorists, who are waiting to establish and impose a new world order. The media can be blamed for this as well, as they are one of guilty parties who spread this image of fear and terror.
You just cannot judge all Muslims, Christians, Jews, and others by something a minority does. I personally am not stereotyping a whole lot of people just for what one group does. I didn't get the chance of meeting many muslims in my lifetime, but from what I know of them, they're not people who love war. They want peace as badly as everybody else wants. If one accepts Muslims without any prejudice and stereotyping, I'm sure they will accept us and we can have a chance of peaceful coexistence with each other, putting aside any armed conflict and sort our problems through a constructive discussion, instead of bloodshed.
I am an Atheist, and I am fully aware I cannot impose my believes. I accept that my peers don't share my believes and that they are Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. All I want in return is that they accept that I am an Atheist and that they judge me for what I do and how I am as a person, just as I accept that they're all from different cultures and different religions. Bottom line: Judge a person by his or her character or what he or she does, not where he or she comes from, what they believe in.
Zu fettigem Käse und kalorienreicher Kunstmarmelade, nehme ich einen Doppelkorn.
YOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4412 posts, RR: 33 Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1484 times:
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 12): Just because muslims and westerners get along in your province, that doesn't mean it is like this in the rest of the world.
What people can do and what people commonly do are different things. I was simply stating that if all sides are moderate harmony is possible.
YOWza
Airports flown this year:RGN,KUL,LHR,LAX,YOW,YTZ,MDW,SEA,SCL,EZE,AEP,IGR,MDZ,IAD,YVR
Jafa39 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1478 times:
Quoting YOWza (Reply 17): What people can do and what people commonly do are different things. I was simply stating that if all sides are moderate harmony is possible.
Spot on! Good man, moderation has become unfashionable of late, when will people get their heads out of their butts and realise how much they are being manipulated into having opinions that perpetrate the agendas of intolerant nutters?
This is why I have told my own brother to stop spending his life on 9/11 conpiracy sites, take a step back and look at what it has made him become.
Mrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1466 times:
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 1): I think that Islam culture isn't compatible with Western culture. We can't try to impose our "democracy" in their countries and the muslims living in the Western world cannot expect us to bend over to their cultural demands.
Now this is the core statement of this thread! Let us elaborate a little in the entire context:
I agree that secular societies "meet the demands of modernity" much better than any theocracy. But what is secular? Should we impose the hardcore seculraism (=NO RELIGION) of the French on other societies?
I believe no.. secularism again is cultural diverse. In parts of Asia (and in a post-colonial context), it means that religion in society is good! All religions should be treated equally and have a framework provided that enables them to prosper. People should be guided by their positive and human morals they develop from the good sides of the religion.. and people should not be discriminated for belonging to a particular religion or a branch within.. In Europe, the Franch modell might work, with all benefits AND negative sides (crime rates, decline of values - this risky and arguable assessment comes from me, from Asian eyes). In other parts of the World, where religion contributes to the overall construction of society, this won't work. Religion is an integral part of the poeple's life, and the right to practice religion must be granted, as long the rights of other people are not impaired from the former. Hence, we need a secular world, but secularism per se can be modified in accordance with the different regions
Pilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2242 posts, RR: 51 Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1460 times:
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 1): I think that Islam culture isn't compatible with Western culture. We can't try to impose our "democracy"
I don't get it..... no Turkey in the EU? Because Muslim and West don't comply....but Turkey is secular... unlike the Vatican but they can get along right. In fact most EU nationalities come to south Turkey and undress, drink, smoke up and dance naked on boat tours....
The west installs airbases here in turkey, to spy on other nations, but 54% of turkish men applying for a US visa are rejected and 68% of Turkish men applying for Europe are rejected... Easy jet will fly to Turkey for super cheap prices now, but the amount of paperwork difficulty imposed on Turkish carriers as i have personally seen is unbelievable for them to fly back to Europe. It's sad my country is being overtaken slowly and painfully by western culture, Europe won't need to accept us anymore, we will become a mandate of European and western culture soon, because we are a population that knows nothing outside of War and Sultans, we are being slowly tricked into molding into the perfect place for Western Business to overtake Turkey. We are in an oil rich area, why the hell is gas so expensive? ill tell you why, because BP and SHELL own all the damn resources here and Turkey has no say in it...this is the sad truth, legs wide open, the older and more experienced culture of business, i,e the west, will overtake turkey soon.....
but we shouldn't be allowed into the EU because it's easier to reject us, than to take us, as ive always posted, never join a club that doesn't know what's going on with itself
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
Mrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1455 times:
Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 20): but we shouldn't be allowed into the EU because it's easier to reject us, than to take us, as ive always posted, never join a club that doesn't know what's going on with itself
Good point! As for me, I back you to join the EU ("to pep up 'old Europe' a bit" ), and I loved to stay in Berlin along with the Turkish community. You might be better of not to join out of Economic reasons though, your market has a better future than parts of the EU
Pilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2242 posts, RR: 51 Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1420 times:
Quoting Mrniji (Reply 21): You might be better of not to join out of Economic reasons though
the turkish economy has no structure, and there are a buttload of money guzzling blackmarkets and corrupt groups, so i think that the EU would be wise to take a GOOD CLEAN look at our system. It would be better to be a partial member of certain freedoms and treaties instead of a full membership
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
Luisde8cd From Venezuela, joined Aug 2004, 2461 posts, RR: 50 Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1420 times:
Quoting TIA (Reply 13): Or do you know what the situation in Albania is better than me?
The world ain't just albania pal, that's all I will say for you.
Quoting TIA (Reply 13): Whatever you are smoking, I want it too.
Again direct attack on me and not my opinions = lame debate by your part again.
Quoting TIA (Reply 13):
And how many mosques are there in Caracas?
When did we start talking about Caracas? There are a few, despite muslims being only 0.000001% of the populaton.
Quoting TIA (Reply 13): If you make blanket statements like that, guess what: you are a close minded individual.
My statements are as valid as yours, again you are nobody to discredit my points of view.
Quoting TIA (Reply 13): What you are advocating is segregation.
Yeah right..... Is it so hard for you to realize that Islam and Western culture have too many contradicted values? The day that western woman can walk around Teheran streets in miniskirts and sleve-less tops without getting stoned to death, then we'll have some real progress.
What is really pathetic is that if a secular country bans religious symbols in schools (France) then muslims revolt saying that their girl need to wear their muslims clothes but if a woman in a muslim country gets stoned to death because her husband accused her of adultery, then that's ok... Again contradicted values.
Quoting TIA (Reply 13): Maybe because I gave you real life examples that invalidated your claims?
Example of a very happy exception to what is really going on around the world.
Quoting TIA (Reply 13): and many other Latin American countries when it comes to social issues such as abortion.
Really? Have you been to Latin America? I guess not.. so you don't know what you are talking about.
Quoting TIA (Reply 13): Religion and politics should not mix.
Tell that to the ISLAMIC Republic of Iran or the ISLAMIC Republic of Mauritania or the ISLAMIC Republic of Afghanistan. Also tell that to the northern part of Nigeria.
Quoting TIA (Reply 13): Don't worry about Spain needing you. They can get plenty of proper European computer engineers from the Eastern Europe part of the EU.
Yeah they need me. I speak their language, I'm very familiar with their culture. Their constitution makes exceptions to facilitate Spanish citizenship to nationals of my country. Im pretty sure the Spanish govt. would rather have me than another foreigner that would have to attend Spanish Language classes, etc.
Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 20):
I don't get it..... no Turkey in the EU? Because Muslim and West don't comply....but Turkey is secular... unlike the Vatican but they can get along right. In fact most EU nationalities come to south Turkey and undress, drink, smoke up and dance naked on boat tours....
The west installs airbases here in turkey, to spy on other nations, but 54% of turkish men applying for a US visa are rejected and 68% of Turkish men applying for Europe are rejected... Easy jet will fly to Turkey for super cheap prices now, but the amount of paperwork difficulty imposed on Turkish carriers as i have personally seen is unbelievable for them to fly back to Europe. It's sad my country is being overtaken slowly and painfully by western culture, Europe won't need to accept us anymore, we will become a mandate of European and western culture soon, because we are a population that knows nothing outside of War and Sultans, we are being slowly tricked into molding into the perfect place for Western Business to overtake Turkey. We are in an oil rich area, why the hell is gas so expensive? ill tell you why, because BP and SHELL own all the damn resources here and Turkey has no say in it...this is the sad truth, legs wide open, the older and more experienced culture of business, i,e the west, will overtake turkey soon.....
but we shouldn't be allowed into the EU because it's easier to reject us, than to take us, as ive always posted, never join a club that doesn't know what's going on with itself
Very good post. Completely agree with you. If this keeps going this way, it will fuel radical nationalist movements in Turkey.
Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
Viasa we miss you!. Good times will return after Chavez is gone!
TIA From Albania, joined Mar 2006, 396 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1400 times:
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 23): Is it so hard for you to realize that Islam and Western culture have too many contradicted values?
When will you ever get it that Western culture doesn't mean Christian culture?
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 23): The day that western woman can walk around Teheran streets in miniskirts and sleve-less tops without getting stoned to death, then we'll have some real progress.
Who was talking about Iran? No one said that Iran should be allowed to join the EU. This was about Turkey and you putting ALL Muslims in the same category.
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 23): Example of a very happy exception to what is really going on around the world.
It's not a very happy exception. Leaving Albania aside, there are 70 million people living in Turkey in religious harmony.
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 23):
Really? Have you been to Latin America? I guess not.. so you don't know what you are talking about.
Again, wrong my friend. I have been to Latin America. Isn't abortion illegal in Venezuela? Yet, it is legal in Turkey.
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 23): Tell that to the ISLAMIC Republic of Iran or the ISLAMIC Republic of Mauritania or the ISLAMIC Republic of Afghanistan. Also tell that to the northern part of Nigeria.
Again, the case in point was Turkey and ALL Muslims, according to your blanket statement. And I am as opposed to any Islamic republic as one can get, but Turkey isn't one. And just to clarify something with your examples, the Christian dominated parts of Nigeria are just as extremist as the Muslim ones.
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 23): Im pretty sure the Spanish govt. would rather have me than another foreigner that would have to attend Spanish Language classes, etc.
Newsflash: You are just another foreigner as long as you don't have Spanish citizenship. Just because you know Spanish doesn't make you Spanish.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
26 ME AVN FAN: it is NOT to "impose" democracy. It is to help countries to find ways towards more democracy. Not by invading countries. And few Muslims in the West
27 ME AVN FAN: while most Muslims did not exactly love those cartoons, few felt outraged at all, and with the exception of some strict-minded Iranians, few Muslims
28 Mrniji: Sure, since they watch our Bollywood movies, they should join the proposed South Asian union - they would be most welcome
29 ME AVN FAN: it may not mean it, but it is like most of the rest of the world
30 Dougloid: There you go stirring up shit again Mrniji. BTW good to see you back on the block.
31 L410Turbolet: Anyone sane with elementary knowledge of history and geography would hardly challenge Spain's "presence" in Europe. On the other hand Turkey isn't th
32 Mrniji: Not as incompatible as Eastern Europe is [Edited 2006-03-28 18:32:44]
34 ME AVN FAN: the CENTRE of Istanbul is on the European side, there only are suburbs on the "Asian" side. And by the criteria of CEPT, the European Postal Union, a
35 TIA: No one was challeninging Spain's claim that it belonged geographically in Europe, but more than one person questioned the compatibility of Spain with
36 Jafa39: Just words, I will think what I think about western cultures thank you. You seem to fall into a pattern when you post, if people don't believe what y
38 Luisde8cd: Let me remind you that western culture started in the Greek Empire which then turned into the Roman Empire which adopted Christianity as their religi
39 Vafi88: As this thread HAS gotten very political, I'll throw this out. How can we say that we can have a FREE and DEMOCRATIC Iraq, when that free Iraq would l
40 ThereAndBack: This has to be the best post I have seen in this website since I joined as a memeber. Very well said.
41 N1120A: That is an absolutely beautiful post and shoots in the foot a lot of this "us v. them" talk that has been thrown around so recklessly. Turkey has one
42 Pilotaydin: thank you guys i really appreciate your comments..... i re read this post with the newer answers and i think everyone is trying to say, somewhat, the
43 ZRH: Agree. GWB and Taliban is almost the same. I think religion is most dangerous and superfluous. 95 % of the wars in the world were because of so calle
44 N1120A: You obviously don't know anything about Iran if you are serious about that. The rule of law still exists in Iran, regardless of misconceptions, and a
45 Mrniji: Thank you. The day Western Women walk around like this in India, we have finally been subdued by the West. Tomorrow you will say that the day people
46 L410Turbolet: Our? Us? Your current flag makes it a bit confusing, who is meant by "our" and "us".
47 ME AVN FAN: Modern Europe started when people became more secular and the Christian "basis" got somewhat more into the background. And there are Muslim countries
48 Mrniji: Sincere Apology: I use the known "colonial" we/they distinction in a new concept - i.e. the "Other" World, the "Orient", the "Developing Countries",
49 Cfalk: That's just PC garbage. You don't see the Buddhists, Christians or Taoists blowing people up in the name of their beliefs. But there is a sizable por
50 UK_Dispatcher: - that is a very important point. I get the impression that Shariah is just abused by some regimes, which is actually an insult to the religion.
51 Mrniji: Charles, I, as American citizen, agree with ZRH. The worst is that Bush spreads these killings outside HIS borders and HIS jurisdictions in being res
52 Cfalk: Ok, then, you answer. When has Bush ever had people killed simply for disagreeing with his views, which is what the Taliban did?
53 Mrniji: Does anyone of these people, who were bombed, who were tortured in Abu Gharib, Guantanamo etc, agree with his views?
54 Cfalk: Was all they did simply disagreeing? The people who were in Abu Ghraib, the only accusation against them was believing in a different religion?
55 Abrelosojos: = Una pregunta (one question) ... so first you think its "pathetic" that there are only 200 churches in Istanbul ... but its not "pathetic" in Caraca
56 Mrniji: Oh, I forgot, it was all about WMDs and didn#T have anything to do with Oil, "The Clash of Civilizations" - maybe I did not study the Blair-Allistar
57 Eaglekeeper101: Once again, for clarity - the belief systems (the religions themselves) are just fine, be they Islam, Christian, Buddhist, Jainism, or the First Cong
59 Luisde8cd: I tell the same to the muslim community in Europe. You have to respect our values and that they can't pretend to impose their lifestyle on us. That's
60 ME AVN FAN: "sizeable" ? NOT sizeable, but at worst some thousands - you apparently think that a Muslim majority means a majority for Shariah, which generally is
61 Civ4b2fan: You people make me sick Islam is a noble religion they pray alot more than us catholics do. They are also more devoted than any christian religion. Ye
62 TIA: So if western culture started in the Greek Empire (which in itself is a flawed argument, because the "Western" culture took so much from the East), h
63 Abrelosojos: = Are you serious? Re read your logic and you will see how I tried to rationalize your arguments. = One question ... how would you address all those
64 Jacobin777: sizable? what's sizeable? what's your definition of "sizable".... have you stop to think, maybe on a % basis, there are as many Jews who are as radic
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