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I Am Fed Up, Time For Some Serious Change.  
User currently offlineJdwfloyd From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 837 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3309 times:

I have more than I can handle, and this BS is the Senate over the past few days has topped it off. It's time to realize that illegal aliens are quickly bringing our country to it's demise. The only solution is to go after the piss-ant companies that are enemploying these people. Its time for our government to stop giving out welfare and free medical care to people that have no right to even be here. Every day 2700 more of these parasites cross the borders ILLEGALLY and the numbers are growing. There is a problem when nearly one third of the inmates in our prisons are here illegally. There is a problem when a higher percentage of illegals are on welfare than that of people that have a right to be here. The three things that define a country are language, culture and BORDERS, all three are quickly falling apart and no one seems to care enough to do anything about it.

If we were to eliminate the things that the illegal immigrants are coming here for, less would come. If nothing were on this side worth coming here for illegally for, would people still come. If we actually enforced the laws on the books and stopped saying we need more laws to ignore.

I am biting this counter argument in the ass before someone mindlessly post it as per the normal rhetoric. We do not need illegals to do jobs that legal citizens won't do. One could have made the same statement one hundred years ago about child labor laws. Back then kids did work that adults would not do, and for less money. It just doesn't matter, we need to stop worrying about what would we do with out the law breaking aliens were not hear. The work will still be done.

I am not saying we should shut down the pipeline all together, just have the people sign the damn guest book on the way in.

105 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFutureUALpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3304 times:

Oh boy, this could get interesting.


I do agree that it is a serious problem that needs to be dealt with, and I have no problem erecting a fence, or planting a mine field, or what have you. My dad is an SDPD veteran and my mom is an RN at Children's Hospital in San Diego, CA, so they see the bad side of it every day...my dad constantly deals with illegals who commit crimes, get into car wrecks without insurance or a license, etc. and my mom has to take care of their children when they cannot afford the health care. But at the same time, they do serve a good purpose in our economy, taking jobs nobody else wants no matter what people say.

[Edited 2006-03-28 07:01:24]

[Edited 2006-03-28 07:02:31]


Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3277 times:

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Thread starter):
It's time to realize that illegal aliens are quickly bringing our country to it's demise.

At least according to the government, the country is doing great. Unemployment is about half that of the EU and GDP is set to grow at something like a healthy 3 to 4 % this year.

It seems to me that everything is working fine and the millions of illegal, undocumented aliens being paid under the table that build every house in Texas and most in California (among other things) contribute greatly to the economy. What is the problem? Is it purely an emotional issue or are there real reasons to suggest 'demise' is coming?

Cairo


User currently offlineNotdownnlocked From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 943 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3269 times:

Yes I understand what you are all saying but just relax and be patient and wait a little while longer perhaps 20-30 years (give or take a few) and when the Walmarts and equivalent others have taken over and are no longer looking for new employees and the rest of us have been outsourced and fee'd to death I am sure there will be no more middle class and those previously in the middle class will be more than happy to do the work of the illegals of today. It will be at that time the problem of illegal immigration into the USA will be solved.

User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3260 times:

I don't think that the economy is doing all that great. It takes two incomes now to support a family in the same style that one income (usually the husband's) used to. And housing prices are through the roof, so to speak.

User currently offlineJdwfloyd From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 837 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3260 times:

For every dime we save in cheap labor we are loosing to the cost of health care, education and welfare that we are paying out. Also we are loosing all the tax revenue from these workers, that lawabiding citizens need to make up for. I say have 20 feet of land bordered on each side by ten foot tall razor wire fences. Between the fences would be a type of no mans land that nothing could get thu alive due to the land minds, automated machine guns and drons gaurding the area. Just a dream.

[Edited 2006-03-28 07:31:57]

User currently offlineAircraft From France, joined Jan 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3255 times:

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Thread starter):
Jdwfloyd



Quoting FutureUALpilot (Reply 1):
Oh boy, this could get interesting.

Jdwfloyd, you are some sort of smashed tank.



User currently offlineAirbus3801 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1089 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3237 times:

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Thread starter):
I have more than I can handle, and this BS is the Senate over the past few days has topped it off. It's time to realize that illegal aliens are quickly bringing our country to it's demise. The only solution is to go after the piss-ant companies that are enemploying these people. Its time for our government to stop giving out welfare and free medical care to people that have no right to even be here. Every day 2700 more of these parasites cross the borders ILLEGALLY and the numbers are growing. There is a problem when nearly one third of the inmates in our prisons are here illegally. There is a problem when a higher percentage of illegals are on welfare than that of people that have a right to be here. The three things that define a country are language, culture and BORDERS, all three are quickly falling apart and no one seems to care enough to do anything about it.

I have one really easy solution for you, I think it's called "Guest Worker Program"

Oh and last time I checked, I wasn't aware that our Language and Culture is falling apart. GASP, Oh my goodness, THEY SPEAK ANOTHER LANGUAGE. NOT SPANISH! THE WORDS OF SATAN! OH MY GOODNESS LETS RUN THROUGH THE HILLS AND SHOUT BECAUSE OUR CULTURE IS FALLING INTO DEMISE! EVEN BETTER IDEA lets go to a message board a post about it! WE ALREADY DEALT WITH THOSE JAPANESE PEOPLE SPEAKING A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE BACK IN THE 40's, lets do it again.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 4):
I don't think that the economy is doing all that great. It takes two incomes now to support a family in the same style that one income (usually the husband's) used to. And housing prices are through the roof, so to speak.

And of course this is entirely because of these illegal immigrants who you know are just making everything go wrong. Let's blame them and not look at the true facts of the matter.


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3235 times:

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 7):
And of course this is entirely because of these illegal immigrants who you know are just making everything go wrong. Let's blame them and not look at the true facts of the matter.

It may not be entirely their fault, but surely the fact that their very presence allows wages in certain sectors of our economy to stagnate cannot have helped.

On the other hand, if their economic effect is minor, then what is the merit of the argument that they are indispensable to our economy?


User currently offlineAirbus3801 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1089 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 8):
It may not be entirely their fault, but surely the fact that their very presence allows wages in certain sectors of our economy to stagnate cannot have helped.

Except the minimum wage has been raised recently and unemployment is quite low. Oh but that's right, their "illegal" so they must be the problem.

What about those other countries who seem to be causing a lot of outsourcing, let's not mention them but blame it on those darn illegals!


User currently offlineJdwfloyd From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 837 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3225 times:

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 7):
Oh and last time I checked, I wasn't aware that our Language and Culture is falling apart. GASP, Oh my goodness, THEY SPEAK ANOTHER LANGUAGE.

Wow talk about missing the point. I have no problem with other languages or the people that speak them. It just when they come here a refuse to learn English and we must then bend over backwards to suite them. Why are classrooms in America being taught in nothing but Spanish? Why do I have to "press one for English" everytime I call the power company or credit card service line? Why when I order a burger from a McDonalds in ABQ do I need some to translate so the person taking my order understands? If I were to move to Germany I would be inclined to learn more German. If I moved to Iceland, guess what I would have to learn.


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3218 times:

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 9):
Except the minimum wage has been raised recently and unemployment is quite low. Oh but that's right, their "illegal" so they must be the problem.

Illegals are often paid under the table.

Insofar as the economic necessity of illegals, I ask you to take a look at Canada, where illegals are much rarer, and tell me that people there cannot enjoy cheap food or hotel lodgings. They do, despite the fact that the harvests there aren't as dependent on illegal labor, nor are their hotels and motels generally serviced by illegal aliens.

How on Earth does Canada do it without charging $20.00 for a hamburger, I wonder? And if Canada can do it, then why on Earth can't the United States?

[Edited 2006-03-28 07:57:50]

User currently offlineAirbus3801 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1089 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3214 times:

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Reply 10):
Why are classrooms in America being taught in nothing but Spanish?

I can think of two reasons. 1) It is a very important language to learn as Latin America is playing a larger role in current affairs these days 2) What other language to want us students to learn, Latin (dead), French (dying as an international language), Esperando?

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Reply 10):
Why do I have to "press one for English" everytime I call the power company or credit card service line?

Oh my goodness, are you getting really bad finger pain from pushing a button. Oh poor thing. It's too bad those darn illegals speak another language as it is ruining are culture.

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Reply 10):
Why when I order a burger from a McDonalds in ABQ do I need some to translate so the person taking my order understands?

Really, I didn't know you carried around a translator to understand your order. You mean you have to have someone write it down for you in English (though that is what they are speaking). (Note translator is the wrong word, they write, interpreters speek the translation)

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Reply 10):
If I were to move to Germany I would be inclined to learn more German. If I moved to Iceland, guess what I would have to learn.

I wasn't aware either of those countries required their persons to learn more. It's seems to me you have a problem that America is a little more open to other cultures then some others. I mean really what is this world coming to, having a whopping TWO languages on my credit card help line, now really! What ever happened to good old Standard American English! This whole thing is causing me to get fed up and believe it's time for some "serious change".


User currently offlineJdwfloyd From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 837 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3203 times:

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 12):
I can think of two reasons. 1) It is a very important language to learn as Latin America is playing a larger role in current affairs these days 2) What other language to want us students to learn, Latin (dead), French (dying as an international language), Esperando?

This will be the last post of yours I will acknowledge because you can't argue the point. Having Spanish class as a foriegn language, not when we are paying for a teacher to teach geometry in spanish. I would not go to France and expect the schools there to teach my kids in English. Having two languages for one country is great, but only if the people know both languages. Its a two way street.


User currently offlineAirbus3801 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1089 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3196 times:

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Reply 13):
his will be the last post of yours I will acknowledge because you can't argue the point. Having Spanish class as a foriegn language, not when we are paying for a teacher to teach geometry in spanish. I would not go to France and expect the schools there to teach my kids in English. Having two languages for one country is great, but only if the people know both languages. Its a two way street.

Words cannot express how saddened I am that you won't "Acknowledge my posts". But just so you know, every student is as equal as another and I commend any effort that reaches any student to learn. Are you going to punish the children of the parents who came over because of them. Who are you to judge that? That is quite vile in my opinion. But hopefully, when your language starts deteriorating even more (though you don't even use translate correctly) us dull-minded people like myself will one day see the light. Maybe I will start to appreciate your burden of pushing 1 for English in the near future.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3191 times:

I have more than I can handle, and this BS is the Chief's hut over the past few days has topped it off. It's time to realize that these damn pilgrims are quickly bringing our country to it's demise. The only solution is to go after the piss-ant churches that are employing these people. Its time for our government to stop giving out maize and free turkeys to people that have no right to even be here. Every day 270 more of these parasites cross the Atlantic ILLEGALLY and the numbers are growing. There is a problem when nearly one third of the adulterers in the stocks are here illegally. There is a problem when a higher percentage of damn Europeans get a drumstick at Thanksgiving than that of people that have a right to be here. The three things that define a country are language, culture and BORDERS, all three are quickly falling apart and no one seems to care enough to do anything about it.

Signed

Tisquantum
Chief of the Wampanoag
1621


User currently offlineAirbus3801 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1089 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3180 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 15):
I have more than I can handle, and this BS is the Chief's hut over the past few days has topped it off. It's time to realize that these damn pilgrims are quickly bringing our country to it's demise. The only solution is to go after the piss-ant churches that are employing these people. Its time for our government to stop giving out maize and free turkeys to people that have no right to even be here. Every day 270 more of these parasites cross the Atlantic ILLEGALLY and the numbers are growing. There is a problem when nearly one third of the adulterers in the stocks are here illegally. There is a problem when a higher percentage of damn Europeans get a drumstick at Thanksgiving than that of people that have a right to be here. The three things that define a country are language, culture and BORDERS, all three are quickly falling apart and no one seems to care enough to do anything about it.

Signed

Tisquantum
Chief of the Wampanoag
1621

I most highly commend you for pointing out the fact that the nation is based on immigrants in the first place, and people are so quick to throw that out such as Jdwfloyd!


User currently offlineLentigomaligna From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3170 times:

Another them vs. us post, how fun.

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Reply 10):
refuse to learn English and we must then bend over backwards to suite them

I think you mean "suit".

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Reply 10):
Why do I have to "press one for English" everytime I call the power company or credit card service line?

The free-market, who's to say companies shouldn't be permitted to provide a service to their customers?

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Reply 10):
Why when I order a burger from a McDonalds in ABQ do I need some to translate so the person taking my order understands?

Then don't go to McDonald's if you don't like it. I agree, customer service people should speak English, but companies are rightfully free to hire whoever they want so long as they're legal (and I'm pretty sure McDonald's Employees are...see next paragraph).

The above statements show me that the real issue isn't illegal immigration, it's closer to racism. The Spanish Language has nothing to do with illegal immigrants, some people who are here perfectly legally have a tenuous grasp on the language. The line between legal and illegal immigration is really blurred in most people's rants on immigration.

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Thread starter):
There is a problem when a higher percentage of illegals are on welfare than that of people that have a right to be here.

Uhhh...source please? I really, really doubt the factual accuracy of this one. Most governments don't readily give welfare to illegals.

My parents and step-father are non-Citizen "Permanent Residents"---they followed the rules (for my step-father it took 4 years to get here) and so should everyone else, ideally. Unfortunately, our immigration system needs a major overhaul BEFORE initiating a major crackdown on illegal immigrants.

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Thread starter):
. The three things that define a country are language, culture and BORDERS

#1 Language. First of all, the U.S. has no official language. Honestly, if in 100 years we were all speaking Spanish (we won't be), who the hell cares? Your life would not change one iota except for the sounds coming out of your mouth. Languages change, take a look at Old English. Furthermore, many countries have many languages co-existing peacefully: look at Switzerland. Still, I don't think anyone would say that the English language is threatened as the dominant language in the United States.

#2 Culture. Culture is determined by the people living in the society, not the other way around. Cultures change as a result of changing influences, not something that can or should be regulated or defended. America's culture is the way it is because of immigration. We should remember our traditions, but also embrace multiculturalism and new influences.

#3 Borders.

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Reply 5):
Between the fences would be a type of no mans land that nothing could get thu alive due to the land minds, automated machine guns and drons gaurding the area. Just a dream.

I can see the sign "Land of freedom and opportunity, stay the hell out or be shot." Borders need protecting against terrorists and criminals, but most people coming across are not a threat to national security or public order.

EDIT: If I recall correctly the 9/11 hijackers were here legally, looking up now.

Indeed: http://www.nilc.org/immlawpolicy/cdev/congrssdev018.htm

Quote:
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"



Quoting Jdwfloyd (Thread starter):
If we were to eliminate the things that the illegal immigrants are coming here for, less would come.

Ya, let's get rid of our relatively good economy. There's a reason legal and illegal immigrants come here for employment, there's a DEMAND for the services they provide. Immigrants don't steal people's jobs any more than a college graduate entering the workforce does.

I agree, they shouldn't be permitted to come here with the intent of mooching off public services, and from what I've seen, most don't.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 11):

How on Earth does Canada do it without charging $20.00 for a hamburger, I wonder? And if Canada can do it, then why on Earth can't the United States?

We can, but we're better off with an immigration system that keeps pace with demand for immigrants.

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 12):
Standard American English!

...or Southern American English, or New York English, or Boston English, etc...

My biggest problem with cracking down on immigration is deporting people who have contributed to the American society for years, and made their home and family here. I feel like we've just set up people to come here illegally just to be screwed later---that needs to be fixed.

[Edited 2006-03-28 08:41:26]

[Edited 2006-03-28 08:42:49]

User currently offlineAirbus3801 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1089 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3160 times:

Quoting Lentigomaligna (Reply 17):
The above statements show me that the real issue isn't illegal immigration, it's closer to racism. The Spanish Language has nothing to do with illegal immigrants, some people who are here perfectly legally have a tenuous grasp on the language. The line between legal and illegal immigration is really blurred in most people's rants on immigration.



Quoting Lentigomaligna (Reply 17):
My biggest problem with cracking down on immigration is deporting people who have contributed to the American society for years, and made their home and family here. I feel like we've just set up people to come here illegally just to be screwed later---that needs to be fixed.

Breathe in and out. Ahh, the fresh air smell so good, especially after reading quite the disgusting comments of making a mine field no mans land between the US MEX border. Hmmm, doesn't that sound like a good idea, lets turn this into North and South Korea.

Lentigomaligna shows that really most people who slam illegal immigration really aren't aware of the facts or know really as much as they think they do....


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3157 times:

Quoting Lentigomaligna (Reply 17):

We can, but we're better off with an immigration system that keeps pace with demand for immigrants.

How is it better when the economic and social costs are clear?

Besides, you're putting the cart before the horse. The question is precisely why the demand supposedly exists here when it doesn't exist elsewhere.

Who demands this cheap labor? Exploitative employers -- all of whom should be penalized severely if they hire illegals. And if they stop hiring illegals, then the immigration problem will tend be alleviated. And if so, then there is no "pace" of demand for immigration that needs to be filled.

Seen another way, legitimate companies like McDonald's may even have a policy to never knowingly hire illegals. If so, and if illegal alien labor is rare in such companies, then why is it claimed by illegal alien apologists that illegals are so critical for a cheap hamburger? Contrariwise, are Americans really so different from Canadians that no American citizen would ever want to work at a McDonald's?

Here in California, the extremely successful, privately held In-And-Out burger chain generally hires cooks, order-takers, and other service employees who, by appearance, manner, language, bearing, and reputation, are U.S. citizens only. How do they manage to attract U.S. citizens if Americans won't do the types of fast food jobs Bush says they won't?

[Edited 2006-03-28 08:58:47]

User currently offlineAirbus3801 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1089 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3151 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 19):

Who demands this cheap labor? Exploitative employers -- all of whom should be penalized severely if they hire illegals. And if they stop hiring illegals, then the immigration problem will tend be alleviated. And if so, then there is no "pace" of demand for immigration that needs to be filled.

Unfourtunatly that will never happen and there will always be a demand for immigrants so you might as well accept it and make as Lentigo said a plain that conforms to the changes in the immigration. It's not giving in, it's facing reality.


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3145 times:

Quoting Airbus3801 (Reply 20):
Unfourtunatly that will never happen and there will always be a demand for immigrants so you might as well accept it and make as Lentigo said a plain that conforms to the changes in the immigration. It's not giving in, it's facing reality.

Sorry, but overburdened hospitals and congested freeways whose funds are taken to feed illegal aliens aren't the kind of reality we "must" accept. America is not nearly such a feeble nation as that, and Americans aren't going to be told by "the proletariat" that we must cater to their wishes in contravention of our own. It's unreasonable and irrational to insist that that be so.

I am not arguing that we shouldn't help illegal aliens. I am arguing, however, that there comes a point when one doesn't feel like offering any more help, and if that is one's feeling, then no foreigner should expect to dictate otherwise.

We should continue to be compassionate, but more on our terms than is the case today.

[Edited 2006-03-28 08:55:53]

User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3124 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 11):
And if Canada can do it, then why on Earth can't the United States?

Canada does significantly worse than the US, their economic activity is low by comparison. Have you ever been to Canada? Pretty - yes. Economically as viable as the US - no. A Canadian earns about 25% less than an average American, or put another way, the average American produces 1/3rd more in terms of GDP than the average Canadian.*

A big reason for this big disparity in wealth is the fundamental wealth that comes to any country that has a vast pool of cheap labor. Labor, like trade, should move with supply and demand across all borders - it makes everyone wealthier.

American citizens are at near full employment and still manage to support a vast population of illegal workers - it is great and it shouldn't be disturbed.

BTW, Britain is the most successful large economy in the EU and they too have what elitist nationalists are calling a huge immigration problem.

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Reply 10):
Why do I have to "press one for English" everytime I call the power company or credit card service line?

Why do Iraqis have to answer in English anytime they want to cross a US checkpoint in their own country? Because the US army says so, just like your credit card company says they want to serve Spanish speakers. My condolences to your button pressing finger - this complaint, btw, proves that you are more irritated by meaningless emotional things than you are about anything that effects your life in any concrete way.

Cairo

*http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#Econ


User currently offlineLentigomaligna From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3122 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 19):
Are Americans really so different from Canadians that no American citizen would ever want to work at a McDonald's?

Well I'm both, actually---and neither side of me wants to work at McDonald's.  silly  Seriously though, of course American Citizens would, but what's wrong with a little competition eh? American Citizens will, but proportionately fewer will be willing, and generally their services will be more expensive.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 19):

Besides, you're putting the cart before the horse. The question is precisely why the demand supposedly exists here when it doesn't exist elsewhere... Exploitative employers

All the more reason to grant limited amnesty to productive illegals, get them documented and tax-paying, reform the immigration bureaucracy, get paid equally, and THEN resolve to enforce immigration laws strictly.

There would still be a benefit for immigration even if exploitative practices didn't exist.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 19):
How is it better when the economic and social costs are clear?

Notice that I'm in a libertarian mindset here, let immigrants in, but not necessarily allow them access to social services at least not initially---those are clearly a benefit meant for Americans. I don't want to pay for the entire world's problems (at least, when I earn enough income to be taxed I won't  silly  ) Of course there are problems associated with this like Emergency Health Care, Education, etc., etc.

I'm not advocating that we just open up the borders willy-nilly, rather I'm responding to what I've come to see as an irrational anti-Immigrant position that's come up in recent years that quite frankly pisses me off. The key here is moderation. The worst I've seen is a step-grandfather speaking in broken English, Swedish-passport in hand that immigrants have screwed up America and the borders should be closed.

As much as I loathe Bush, I think he said it best when he said that to think that Immigrants are somehow bad for this country is ludicrous. Sure, there are problems and benefits with immigrants, but immigrants are not the root of all evil.

I also don't want to condemn immigrants to being poor---I would hope that immigrants could come here and find a piece of the American dream for themselves. Of course, this isn't the norm, but we speak of immigrants and poverty as being synonymous.


User currently offlineLentigomaligna From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3119 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 22):
Labor, like trade, should move with supply and demand across all borders - it makes everyone wealthier.

 checkmark 

I agree 100%. Of course, this is idealism. Other countries engage in protectionism, nationalism, etc. not to mention problems with the tragedy of commons, so we can't just unilaterally open up our labor market.


25 EmiratesA345 : You went on and on about language in at least two posts, yet each and every one of yours are gramatical nightmares. For someone who doesn't have lang
26 Post contains images Doona : Ooh, great idea! Take away your freedom, and lower your standard of life, so that Mexico actually becomes more attractive... Yeah, wonderful idea. We
27 Toulouse : I'm fed up also. I'm fed up with people who publically denominate all illegal immigrants as "parasites". I thing this is where the problem lies, your
28 N1120A : That is a product of a decline in real wages, not in the traditional economic indicators (GDP, employment, etc.). It is rampant market speculation in
29 Pilotaydin : well, if you want to live in a secluded all american nation where there are no immigrants, are you? and your government prepared to pull their politic
30 Boeing7E7 : 1. So what. English is the universal language, and that's not going to change. 2. German for cars, French for Wine and "Spanish" - the Spain variety
31 Toulouse : So the youth of the US shouldn't bother cultivating themselves and learning foreign languages other than their native English tongue?? Worry, what's
32 Boeing7E7 : Plenty of other more useful languages to learn as I mentioned. The "Spanish" spoken in Mexico is so full of slang that persons in Spain hardly call i
33 Post contains images Alberchico : Oh yeah and I'm sure you are against them doing repairs or work on your house for dirt cheap prices too.
34 Toulouse : Thanks for your reply Boeing7E7, but which are the other languages you consider important, German, French and Spanish (as spoken in Spain)? If so, ye
35 Alberchico : Spanish is spoken differently in many countries and each area has their own dialect... But the Spaniard one is the original and proper one, just like
36 Toulouse : Ok that is true and I didn't express myself correctly. But it is the same language, as a dialect is simply the form in which a language is used in a
37 Alberchico : Its mostly confined to just a few words and phrases. But if somebody from Mexico enrolls in a Spanish class in Madrid the point is that they will not
38 Toulouse : Ok that is true and I didn't express myself correctly. But it is the same language, as a dialect is simply the form in which a language is used in a
39 SFOMEX : Any source other than your a**? Your statement is as asinine as saying that the English spoken in the Deep South is "a mockery" because is different
40 Flyingbabydoc : Absolutely correct. These people have to endure a situation that most other people would deem unbearable. Take an example: I have a patient who is a
41 Alberchico : Next time you need someone to work on your house for practically free you''ll wish you still had them. Many people out here in Long Island, including
42 Boeing7E7 : A C- is about right. Learn "spanish" in the Mexico dialect (taught in the US) then visit Spain. It becomes quite obvious when they look at you like t
43 Maury : It is interesting to note that many, if not most of the posters who are so anxious to seal our (southern) border can't seem to find spel chekk, are fo
44 AerospaceFan : Well, perhaps you can elucidate as to the consanguinity between spelling, punctuation, and perspicacity as to the issue at hand.
45 Boeing7E7 : Irrational immigration policy appears to be clearly in the cross-hairs.
46 Jdwfloyd : Cant say I have ever hired an illegal to do repairs on my house, sorry. Those US soldiers are not there expecting the German people to pay for their
47 Slider : You must be in a cave then, with due respect. Are you not seeing these protests? Do you not see the pervasiveness of illegal immigration in your dail
48 N1120A : Um, if you are here illegally, you cannot avail yourself of welfare. The whole point of the system is to benefit taxpayers. Also, those US soldiers,
49 Alphafloor889 : zzzzzzzzzzzzz......zzzzzzzzzzzzz....
50 Slider : Tell that to the hundreds and thousands who are receiving it. Go check out the Post Office in Casa Grande, Arizona, for instance and you'll see the e
51 ZChannel : That's not true. The Spanish taught in the Universities I went to was Castillian Spanish. I was taught how to properly use "vosotros," which is not c
52 Slider : In the short term, we might struggle. But in terms of agriculture alone, it's estimated that paying a living wage would only drive the cost of a head
53 ZChannel : Yeah, I guess I do. I live in the heart of Los Angeles and my parents were too poor to escape the Latino influx with everyone else during the late ei
54 Jdwfloyd : Well stated, welcome to my RU list. I wonder if the people saying there is no problem would sing the same tune if they were Arabs or Indians coming o
55 Airbus3801 : Well they don't really have that option now do they. Boy do you fail to see the other side of the table. Ahem... source please. Spanish is Spanish, E
56 Slider : All the more reason to have more stringent security!!! Protect the borders, have tight visa requirements, background checks, etc. Proving identity wa
57 Airbus3801 : I am sorry you have to deal with people who god forbid speak another language, but you can't force them to learn English and they don't have to if th
58 Boeing7E7 : As an American, there is only one side the of the table in this country. You either get on that side of the table or take a hike. Mexican "Spanish" i
59 Jalto27R : Airbus3801, I would happily invite you to sit a day in with me at my school, where there can be as many as 6 spanish-speaking-only students in each o
60 Airbus3801 : How very wrong you are. I am living in PHX in a private school who has outreach programs to these students that the public schools do not have the fu
61 Joness0154 : /end of discussion and you're what....15 years old? Not even dipping in to real life yet...[Edited 2006-03-29 04:19:23]
62 Airbus3801 : Well I am more aware of people who need my help that probably you. Going to a private school means nothing. I don't like the PS system so I don't go
63 Joness0154 : It just means you haven't seen the situations in the public school systems then. I am very aware of the immigrant situation and the help the legal on
64 Airbus3801 : Only problem is I have been to Public School you know and there is no excuse for bagging on them until proper reforms to the laws can be made.
65 Boeing7E7 : With all the private education you have there, maybe you should do some research. Ever consider there's a reason you're in a Private school in a bord
66 AAden : we just need more patrols on the border, and to authorize the use of deadly force. english and chinese Theres a big difference between the us army an
67 BN747 : Oh good lord! You're suppose to drink the Kool-Aid ... NOT smoke it! You're just so ready to 'push the self-destruct' button so bad you can't stand t
68 Flyingbabydoc : You are right on that one. Change "illegals" for "jews" and it is very, very similar to what you would hear on the streets of Germany in 1933 and onw
69 AerospaceFan : This nonsense about how immigration laws are comparable to anti-Jewish laws is just that: Nonsense. Jews in Germany had a legal right to reside in Ger
70 Flyingbabydoc : If you read my post again you will notice that I am not talking about the laws. I am not questioning the notion of citizenship. What I am talking abo
71 Slider : As humans, yes. As Americans, no way. they're not citizens. You're stuck on stupid, as Gen. Honore would say, with due respect. So you're teaching th
72 Airbus3801 : If you are implying that the PS school system in AZ is drastically hurt by illegal aliens, I would love to see your source behind such reasoning....
73 Jdwfloyd : I am sure they did to, and they put up one hell of a fight. In the end they lost the war against the invasion. I am not going to sit here and let the
74 AerospaceFan : No one is treating anyone like insects, unless, by that, you're referring to deportation. Admit it: Every country has the right to deport illegals. N
75 Dougloid : I live here in a state that is getting a lot of Hispanic and other immigration, legal and otherwise. It's an issue on everyone's mind. First of all, i
76 AerospaceFan : I'm a compassionate person, but there are moments when I do think that we should deport them all. There is no limit to the demands that can be made,
77 Sovietjet : The blacks in the ghettos will take the jobs, the homeless in NO will take the jobs, the poor white trash population would take the jobs....plenty of
78 AerospaceFan : Alex, I admire you for your compassion. And there is a part of me that just wishes to embrace all of our aliens and say, "Welcome! And make a good li
79 Cairo : I for one do not think there is a limit to compassion and have always found that the more you help others, or even base your entire life on helping o
80 AerospaceFan : Perhaps if you lived here, you would think differently.
81 Slider : Don't be so presumptuous yong man. Again, I would proffer that compassion does not mean the abdication of all thigns American. Personal compassion is
82 DucatiRacer : Exactly, why aren't the marchers waving American flags if they are so adamant about becoming American?
83 Airbus3801 : But they dont.... I very will shall as if you had truly worked with this people, I doubt you would be feeling the same way, but I take it you haven't
84 Slider : Again, presumptuous one, don't dare to question what I've done in my life, where I've been and with whom. As a matter of fact, I spent 5 years in Ari
85 Pilotfox : In my opinion, most of the illegals out there are not going to be committing crime because if they ever get caught they will be deported. The majority
86 Airbus3801 : Trust me, I will indeed "dare" to make my assumptions as you clearly don't understand the issue. If you have spend 5 years in AZ and now 4 in TX, I t
87 Post contains images PSA727 : I am the grandson of Mexican immigrants, but they came here legally with documentation over 80 years ago. They never received a dime in social service
88 BN747 : Have you any idea how many Americans are illegaly live in some 100+ countries around the world? Including Mexico? Also, no one can tell me this isn't
89 Boeing7E7 : Another conspiracy?
90 BN747 : That weak-kneed lame attempt at 'ridicule' didn't hold up in the Charlie Sheen thread.. and it won't hold here... ..care to prove me wrong here, B7E?
91 Post contains images Boeing7E7 : They're calling for you:
92 BN747 : And more ridicule is your BEST shot? The best you can do? You simply have no BEST FOOT to place forward. Your parents would be PROUD at the piece of
93 Boeing7E7 : ???
94 Post contains links Joness0154 : And Godwins Law takes into effect....again http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
95 N1120A : Fraud is already a crime. If you take issue with people committing fraud, I have no problem with that, and those who do should be arrested for that.
96 Boeing7E7 : 82% is rather official. Sympathizing with law breakers I see. Way to go! Right up your alley.
97 N1120A : 82% is miniscule on a worldwide scale, and de facto doesn't mean de jure. Did you read the whole post? No? Didn't think so. BTW, what is your opinion
98 Boeing7E7 : We're talking about the US. Jail sounds good. How about you?
99 Dougloid : Damn right brother.
100 Dougloid : A lot of the churches involved in the quote unquote "sanctuary movement" seem to have forgotten what Jesus said about "Render unto Caesar that which
101 Slider : This is a fallacy--the need is overstated wildly. The low-end of the labor spectrum which is occupied by illegals represents 4% of the GDP. The PRICE
102 Airbus3801 : And you should be the one who says that to me! You have no respect for the sacrifices those people make, or the real reason why they are here and pre
103 AGM100 : You know Airbus, before the sights and sounds of this week I gave the imagrants a little latitude. I have been to Mexico many times I see the living
104 Post contains images Sovietjet : Step 1: remove illegal mexicans Step 2: post "help wanted" signs in NO, ghettos and trailer parks Step 3: ????? Step 4: Profit
105 Jalto27R : I am not wrong, what I stated about my school is fact. I also go to a private school, but offering the outreach programs is just impossible because m
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