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Again The French With Their Strikes  
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2940 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1695 times:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4851626.stm

If this happend here in New York , people would be calling for their heads.........


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3012 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1695 times:
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Didn't New York MTA workers do the same a few months ago?


Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1682 times:

Yes and New Yorkers walked the cold winter streets muttering every possible obscenity at them


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1678 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
If this happend here in New York , people would be calling for their heads.........

You want participatory democracy or not? The right to protest, demonstrate, a very important communicative human right (some nations don't acknowledge)


User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1674 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 2):
Yes and New Yorkers walked the cold winter streets muttering every possible obscenity at them

I was in New York during that strike, and yes, I did mutter obscenity's at them.


User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1668 times:

Well, the Brits strike today, too. And here in Germany we've also strikes for weeks, although not as big as in France.

pelican


User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1664 times:

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 3):
The right to protest, demonstrate, a very important communicative human right (some nations don't acknowledge)

that dosen't give you the right to go on strike and mess up everybody's elses day.........



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3012 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1664 times:
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Quoting Mrniji (Reply 3):
The right to protest, demonstrate, a very important communicative human right (some nations don't acknowledge)

If legitimate, yes. Unfortunately there are many abuses by lazy people who strike/protest/demonstrate just for the sake of it. That's where I don't agree.

I don't know how it is in this specific french case, because I don't know the details (I haven't actually read the law everyone is talking about, and it's hard to distinguish between garbage propaganda and real facts).

-Manuel



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1659 times:

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 7):
If legitimate, yes. Unfortunately there are many abuses by lazy people who strike/protest/demonstrate just for the sake of it. That's where I don't agree.

the new york transit one was mostly the union not wanting to wake up to the realities of the real world, and realizing how good they have it.......



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1652 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 6):
that dosen't give you the right to go on strike and mess up everybody's elses day.........

A human right is the upmost value to be respected in any state. So if the people feel they are maltreated through the legislative, executive or whatsoever, they are entitled to claim the right. HR are not what Alberchico says.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 7):
If legitimate, yes. Unfortunately there are many abuses by lazy people who strike/protest/demonstrate just for the sake of it. That's where I don't agree.

You give a point I can agree with (at least you don't condemn it per se but have some reasoning)

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 7):
I don't know how it is in this specific french case, because I don't know the details (I haven't actually read the law everyone is talking about, and it's hard to distinguish between garbage propaganda and real facts).

There were similar discussions in Germany. Though in a German context, I would back the government for an initiative (the law would make a lot of sense here), I do not want to speak for the French people. The strike though is an indicator for a majority (=Western democracy, majority rules minority  sarcastic  ) not willing to concede. So rather than condemning the people for going on the street, the government should wonder whether they are properly executing their mandate "of serving the people". Hence, I respect these actions in principle, but cannot give a profound input on the content. In other words: take the people and their objections seriously


User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3012 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1644 times:
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Quoting Mrniji (Reply 9):
You give a point I can agree with (at least you don't condemn it per se but have some reasoning)

Yes, that's something I've learned quite recently. I used to condemn everything I superficially wouldn't like, but I figured that there must be a reason behind every action (well, almost). IMHO without knowing the full reasoning behind an action you can't condemn it. And medias are way too biased (in one way or the other) to be able to use their inputs to make an informed, objective judgment.

-Manuel



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1631 times:

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 9):
A human right is the upmost value to be respected in any state. So if the people feel they are maltreated through the legislative, executive or whatsoever, they are entitled to claim the right. HR are not what Alberchico says.

what about people ignorant unions who don't understand economics and the laws of supply and demand and strike for purely selfish reasons???



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1628 times:

Not everyone in France is on strike, just BTW - only the bone-idle government workers (jammy gits). Some of us have to keep working for a living.

User currently offlineMyt332 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 9112 posts, RR: 70
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
Some of us have to keep working for a living.

Say's he playing around online. It's just not good enough sir!



One Life, Live it.
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
only the bone-idle government workers (jammy gits). Some of us have to keep working for a living.

Exactly. Many white collar workers work even harder then blue collar workers but have no union to back them up......

Life is hard. Get used to it.....



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

They are striking because France is changing, or at least trying to change, the law where workers fresh out of college can't be fired. IIRC the new legislation gives the employer the ability to fire a new worker within 2 years if they are not doing their job as stated. I personally see no problem with this change as I think 2 years is quite a long probationary period for a new worker.


"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 11):
what about people ignorant unions who don't understand economics and the laws of supply and demand and strike for purely selfish reasons???

How do you know whether this is the case??

And do you "understand economics"? (How can you understand something 100 % which is debated by Millions of people? I do not understand many of those concepts - though my background from Uni is a such - because the materia is soooo complex, with all these millions oif variables that commingle, correlate, intercept and whatsoever)

Tomorrow you will tell us that the right to life should be stopped, because some gangsters need to be hanged. Day after, you will tell us to limit freedom of speech, because someone speaks publically against GWB or some of those other people of the GOP. So realize that the French people are acting in the frame of their constitution.

You should not jump into conclusions without being briefed at least a little about the situation, and you should not benchmark situations in accordance with what YOU believe is right. The people are intelligent enough and don't need anyone from the other side of the Atlantic to condemn their actions in an acrimonious manner.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1620 times:

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 13):
Say's he playing around online. It's just not good enough sir!

Oi, scrounger - you could use a CPE and all, so they could fire your idle butt for no reason ! You and your Las Vegas jollies, you should be ashamed !

Besides - I only get paid enough to get me out of bed - anything like work is extra, and anyway what with my mandatory half-hourly hour-long coffee breaks and my legally mandated 2 hour lunch, there isn't time for anything else.

 Smile


User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1613 times:

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 16):
Tomorrow you will tell us that the right to life should be stopped, because some gangsters need to be hanged. Day after, you will tell us to limit freedom of speech, because someone speaks publically against GWB or some of those other people of the GOP.

So now I'm advocating a return to the Third Reich ???  Confused

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 16):
The people are intelligent enough and don't need anyone from the other side of the Atlantic to condemn their actions in an acrimonious manner.

If they have the right to strike then I have the right to sit there critizize it.



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4036 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1613 times:

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 3):
The right to protest, demonstrate, a very important communicative human right (some nations don't acknowledge)

When you forbid other people from doing their jobs (and not just people who can't get to work but also your co-worker who aren't as lazy as you) you overstep the lines of free speech.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1609 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 19):
When you forbid other people from doing their jobs (and not just people who can't get to work but also your co-worker who aren't as lazy as you) you overstep the lines of free speech.

That's exactly what I suffered in New York during the strike and why I am pissed at the whole idea of strike. Oh not to mention that the NYC strike was ILLEGAL. Transport workers cannot go on strike. So they are all technically lawbreakers.



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1609 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 18):
If they have the right to strike then I have the right to sit there critizize it.

Indeed you do. But sitting on your b**t and commenting does not give you a strong and profound argument, at least not in my eyes  Smile

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 18):
So now I'm advocating a return to the Third Reich ???

I never said that

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 19):
When you forbid other people from doing their jobs (and not just people who can't get to work but also your co-worker who aren't as lazy as you) you overstep the lines of free speech.

Excellent point! The right to demonstrate (and strike) is limited by the right to work.. needs to be balanced!


User currently offlineToulouse From Switzerland, joined Apr 2005, 2759 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1604 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 2):
Yes and New Yorkers walked the cold winter streets muttering every possible obscenity at them

Just as many (if not the majority) of us are doing here in France today.

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 3):
You want participatory democracy or not? The right to protest, demonstrate, a very important communicative human right (some nations don't acknowledge)

It is indeed an imporant right, yet I do have the same feeling as Alberchico expresses in the below quote:

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 6):
that dosen't give you the right to go on strike and mess up everybody's elses day

I feel the same, but that's the public sector for you.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
Some of us have to keep working for a living.

Indeed!

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 15):
I personally see no problem with this change as I think 2 years is quite a long probationary period for a new worker.

I totally agree with you DeltaGator. Unemployment is highest amongst the newly graduated from certain spectrums of the French thrid level education system, and many French employers are just to scared of trying out people totally lacking experience under current law as they may get stuck with them, thus I do not understand people's opposition to this... makes me think it's simply the lazy students who couldn't be bothered studying or working at all.



Long live Aer Lingus!
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1602 times:

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 21):
But sitting on your b**t

You won't get banned for saying the word BUTT  Smile

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 21):
I never said that

You hinted that I advocated the death penalty and limits on free speech, which are signs of facism

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 21):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 19):
When you forbid other people from doing their jobs (and not just people who can't get to work but also your co-worker who aren't as lazy as you) you overstep the lines of free speech.

Excellent point! The right to demonstrate (and strike) is limited by the right to work.. needs to be balanced!

That's basically what I've been saying......



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1602 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 23):
You hinted that I advocated the death penalty and limits on free speech, which are signs of facism

This was a parable of mine to dissemble your in my eyes weak argument

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 23):
That's basically what I've been saying......

Then say it directly and explicitely without starting your statement with words of abuse  Wink  Smile


25 Post contains images Myt332 : That sounds painful That was 6 years ago! I was in Budapest at the weekend. I think you should get your half hourly hour long breaks increased so you
26 Post contains images Alberchico : When you've gone through a strike in the coldest month of the year, trust me you will not have any kind words left for unions Actually this was one o
27 Sebolino : What a ridiculous statement. Supply and demand is not what should rule everybody's life, even if you are not in favor of the strike. The day there wi
28 ManuCH : We often employ very young people, at their first employment, and unfortunately we need to send many of them home after only a few months. It's not l
29 Alberchico : Supply and Demand is the very foundation of capitalism....
30 Post contains images Mrniji : And it provided me with a smile and amusement
31 Post contains images Mrniji : ...and a very, very debated concept even amongst orthodox economists
32 DeltaGator : Found a little blurb giving a brief overview of the issue at hand. I got it on Foxnews.com (so I'm sure someone will call it anti-union, etc.) but it
33 Alberchico : there is a ton of historical evidence to back it up......
34 MaverickM11 : There's no demand for French workers, so what are you suggesting they do?
35 Post contains images Mrniji : ...and there is much evidence to back up the counter arguments (involvement of institutions, bargaining individually/collectively, cartells, monopoli
36 JGPH1A : Well, it's an easy enough mistake to make, isn't it ? The resemblance is truly hideous amazing !
37 Alberchico : Since that was directed at me, I also must ask what it means......
38 Post contains images Mrniji : - this was a mean but good sarcastic one
39 TheSorcerer : They have the right to protest and demonstrate. If that messes up your day then tough luck. Dominic
40 Kyril : I definitely agree with the strike right, but i'd prefer strikers to selectively strike. Like trying to freeze the life of politicians they protest ag
41 TheSorcerer : That's a pretty good idea, i like the sound of it. I wonder if anyone will do selective striking. Whatever is most effective is what will be used i g
42 Post contains images Alberchico : Personally anyone who pulls this crap is a TRAITOR........
43 Post contains images ManuCH : I don't agree with that one. After all, our nations are still supposed to be democratic. Democracy gives people the right to protest, but not the rig
44 Post contains images Mrniji : so what happens if the politicians sabotage the lifes of the people?
45 J_Hallgren : In USA, and working for most private companies, one can get fired even on the first day! So giving these people two years is WAY too lenient! In my fi
46 Pyrex : No it's not, it's just a childish and imature idea. Besides, deliberately cutting off someone's electricity could be considered a crime against prope
47 L410Turbolet : It's a mad idea. OK, strikes are accepted as a legitimate economic right, although I see as a certain ethical(?) problem in the fact, that there's hu
48 MaverickM11 : It's par for the course for French unions.
49 Pope : And this is why the EU will eventually fail. Lower productivity + more benefits coupled with an population pyramid that is about to become inverted is
50 Post contains images Slider : God forbid that self-reliance be part of the French economy and culture. The politicians are realizing that their very nation is is jeopardy if they
51 MaverickM11 : France has very high productivity, primarily because employers will do everything they possibly can to avoid hiring more French employees.
52 Banco : You vote them out of office. That's the whole point.
53 Post contains links Pope : These sources seem to disagree. http://www.econ.ucl.ac.be/CONJ/aiece...ductivity%20in%20France10-2004.pdf http://www.forbes.com/2005/03/22/cx_da_0322
54 MaverickM11 : ??? "Still, French workers remain among the most productive in the world, ahead of Britain, Germany, the United States and Japan, according to the Eu
55 PSA727 : Then that's an argument for hiring less of them not more. If you can get more productivity out of your workers, you'll actually need less labor to me
56 Post contains images Kyril : PSA727 >> The German government proposed something way different. First its a two way measure. It benefits and costs to both sides. What proposed the
57 DeltaGator : You live in a Republic and not a Democracy IIRC. You have democraticly elected your leaders and they then work on your behalf. If you do not believe
58 Kyril : Nope we just have the choice to wait till the end of their "mandature". We can't vote them out. Only the president can dissolve the assembly. He did
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