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Are European Monarchs Still Religiously Faithful?  
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4306 posts, RR: 11
Posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1359 times:

Since monarchies and Christianity in Europe go hand in hand by virtue of centuries old history and tradition, I was wondering if the European monarchs today go to church regularly, are openly engaged about their faith, celebrate all the Christian holidays, or have they become silent or inactive about such things. Furthermore, has there even been a member of European royalty openly saying that they are atheist?

I was just wondering about this.


My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 44
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1352 times:

Prince Charles (U.K.) has publicly stated that he would like his incumbent title to be changed from "Defender of the Faith" to "Defender of Faiths" - in order to be more inclusive. I can't find any credible links quoting him on his own faith.


Up, up and away!
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4306 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1349 times:

Wow, 6000 post... I think the Lady deserves a huge congrats!!

About the Prince Charles thing, I have never heard anything about how the European monarchs view religion or anything llike that so that peaked my curiousity.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4891 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1315 times:

If I'm not mistaken most European royal families have put relgion on the backburners. For instance the Crown Prince of the Netherlands, a protestant nation, is married to an Argentine Catholic. This would never have happened one generation ago. I guess that might constitute a lack of religious faith.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineQANTASFOREVER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1309 times:

Recently the Crown Princess of Denmark became a Lutheran on marrying the Crown Prince. Their newborn son, Prince Christian was also recently baptised amid much fanfare.

Usually Queen Elizabeth II usually adds a note about a bible passage, or refers to her faith in her Christmas message. She and other direct members of the Royal Family regularly attend church. This is not the kind of athletic Christianity that one sees in the United States. This is subdued, and steeped in tradition and social obligation.

Although many other European Royals may not choose to follow its directives, Catholic Europe and its royal houses still covet a strong connection with the Vatican.

But there will always be exceptions (in terms of Royal or Serene Houses, or individual royals).

QFF


User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1300 times:

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 4):
Recently the Crown Princess of Denmark became a Lutheran on marrying the Crown Prince. Their newborn son, Prince Christian was also recently baptised amid much fanfare.

Yeah, they have to become lutheran according to the Danish law. Denmark has a state church (folkekirke) and as far as I know the Danish Queen is the head of folkekirken.

pelican


User currently offlineRobertNL070 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2003, 4532 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1280 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 3):
is married to an Argentine Catholic

Princess Máxima is now a Dutch Protestant. As long as she is happy it doesn't matter to me what she is.

By the way Derico, the Dutch Royals were in Argentina last week.

Regards, Robert  bouncy 



Youth is a gift of nature. Age is a work of art.
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4306 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1274 times:

Yes, I heard about it yesterday in a news analysis show.

And the people in the Netherlands should not take the absence of our fearless leader to a dinner the Queen threw in HIS honor (now that's oxymoronic), as an insult, because he certainly is not singling out your country. I know people over there thought that gem by Mr. 'K' was an insult. But don't fear. He has also 'stood up':

-the president of Brazil (twice, one time he just didn't show up at a summit)
-Mexico (again a bilateral meeting were he left the Mexican prez waiting)
-President Bush (at the Summit of the Americas in Mar del Plata)
- the former Chilean President (because of some comment made about his political party in Chile)
- the Italians (the debt restructuring)
- the French (a water privatization issue with French Co. Suez)
- the British (Falklands)
- the Spanish (just because)
- the Chinese, Japanese, Bolivians... even Hugo Chavez.

This week it was the turn of the Netherlands in this 'gala' the Queen was throwing, and Russia too in a diplomatic incident where a Russian government worker was beaten up, and he said nothing about it.

The only reason he has any popularity whatsoever is that the Argentine economy is entering 5 years of the best economic boom since the 'golden' era of Argentina's 'richest nation' period. But of course he has nothing to do with it, therefore...

He has messed up our relationships overseas and his behavior is an absolute embarrasment.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1269 times:

Quoting Redngold (Reply 1):
Prince Charles (U.K.) has publicly stated that he would like his incumbent title to be changed from "Defender of the Faith" to "Defender of Faiths" - in order to be more inclusive.

That would be pretty stupid for him to say, as long as the Monarch is head of the Church of England.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 3):
For instance the Crown Prince of the Netherlands, a protestant nation, is married to an Argentine Catholic. This would never have happened one generation ago. I guess that might constitute a lack of religious faith.

I would disagree. It simply constitutes a lack of religious fanaticism. That fanaticism still lives on in cultures and families who protest loudly when their children marry someone of another major faith.

I had an aunt (in the US) who was raised in one of those fundementalist churches, and her family disowned her when she married my uncle - an episcopalian. That's nuts. Lutheran, Methodist, Catholic, Anglican, Baptist are all basically the same - there should never be any problems there.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1256 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
That would be pretty stupid for him to say, as long as the Monarch is head of the Church of England.

Yes, but the Church of England isn't your usual state religion. It's a peculiarly British invention, and often has little in common with the wider Anglican churches. The C of E spends much of its time looking after the interests of every other religion in the country rather than promoting itself. Indeed, the greatest opposition to disestablishmentarianism tends to come from Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists et al, who quite like having such a harmless, considerate entity within the state apparatus. Looked at in that context, Charles' position makes a lot more sense.

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 4):
She and other direct members of the Royal Family regularly attend church. This is not the kind of athletic Christianity that one sees in the United States. This is subdued, and steeped in tradition and social obligation.

Not just accurate, but also extremely elegantly put, QFF.  praise 



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineCtbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1236 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
That would be pretty stupid for him to say, as long as the Monarch is head of the Church of England.

Charles has made no secret of his desire to disestablish the C of E when he ascends the throne. Such a move may actually help bolster it if taken out of the state apparatus. The Church has never quite been able to get past the ephatet "The Church of England is merely the Conservative Party at prayer."

Charles, SJ



The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3771 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1223 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
That would be pretty stupid for him to say, as long as the Monarch is head of the Church of England.

Let's not make a mistake here, calling the Church of England a church. It's not really a church. More of a social thing nowadays... Same thing with the Swedish Church. AFAIK, to become a priest here, you don't even have to be a christian!

Cheers
Mats

[Edited 2006-04-03 21:51:22]


Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1217 times:

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 10):
The Church has never quite been able to get past the ephatet "The Church of England is merely the Conservative Party at prayer."

Or indeed Lord Melbourne's comment that "things have come to a pretty pass when religion is allowed to invade the sphere of private life".  Wink



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1217 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 9):
Not just accurate, but also extremely elegantly put, QFF. praise

Oh dear  faint 



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineQANTASFOREVER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1189 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 9):
disestablishmentarianism

Cheers for working that one into a sentence!

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 13):
Oh dear

Don't knock it till you've tried it Kirkie.

QFF


User currently offlineSmithAir747 From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 1628 posts, RR: 28
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1175 times:

I'm currently an American student living in London (studying at King's College London) (for my 2nd year now).

While living here in London, I have experienced the "Church" of England. During my long search for a church to attend, I have tried several--mostly of the state "church" type (eg. Southwark Cathedral, All Souls, etc).

I have to agree with Doona (reply 11), who says the C of E is not really a church--it's more a social club thing. The churches/cathedrals themselves are actually more museum than church, and the atmosphere there shows it. You have to be an "insider" to know people there; I never got to know anyone at these churches--there were too many people and there was an "insider" social club feel to it, that I never became familiar or comfortable with. The Sunday services are steeped in tradition; they are the same every Sunday. The priest leads the entire service; the congregation passively follows along in unison. I found there is really no opportunity to use my musical talents (as a pianist) in a C of E church--the musicians are "insiders", too, who have been in the system a long time! It's very depressing, for an "alien" (outsider) like me, not to be able to feel part of this "religious" system!

However, my search for a church here in London has not been totally fruitless!
I finally found an independent church (last November), just a short walk from my Univ. of London residence hall in Bloomsbury. It's called the American Church in London (on Tottenham Court Road), an independent church for American expats. The moment I walked in off the street one Sunday, I felt immediately at home--they opened their arms. They open their arms to visitors and make them at home, and they work to get to know each one of them.

Ever since November 2005, I have never left that church! (Considering it's now my 2nd year here in London!) I consider it my spiritual home away from home, since I have a strong Christian faith myself.

At my new church home, I am able to contribute to the church family--with my musical talents on the piano, and I have been able to share my life experiences with others there.

SmithAir747



I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made... (Psalm 139:14)
User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6452 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1165 times:

Quoting Pelican (Reply 5):
Yeah, they have to become lutheran according to the Danish law. Denmark has a state church (folkekirke) and as far as I know the Danish Queen is the head of folkekirken.

The first part is definitely correct. But I don't think that the Queen is considered head of Folkekirken. At least she has no function as such today, neither had our kings during the last few hundred years.

But then again, we have many laws and regulations which are up to 800 years old, which we never bothered to change or update. So maybe?

The Queen is the supreme commander of the armed forces, and I don't see it as Danish culture to combine that "job" with head of the church during the last few hundred years.

The royal family must be members of the "official church", the Folkekirken which counts roughly 85% of the population as voluntary members.

The Danish Queen does seem to show some interest in the well-being of the official church. But apart from being a rather frequent churchgoer it is mainly in the way of designing and sewing a new chasuble for a bishop every ten years or so.

If the Danish monarch proclaims to be an atheist, then it sure will be sort of chock for the country, and if it happened today, then it could easily spell the beginning of the end of Denmark as a kingdom. But I don't see that it can happen during the next fifty years.

We can't ask our future King Christian XI yet since he is not yet one year old. We ask him many questions, but the only answer is a royal "Waaaaeeh".



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineJean Leloup From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2116 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1146 times:

The whole 'head of state=head of the church' thing is a particularly anglican solution to an old theological-political dilemma. i think they're the only church that work that way; so I suspect Preben is right that the Danish monarch is not head of the Church. Lutheran churches don't really have 'heads' in that sense, anyway, owing to the reformation controversies over the lordship of Christ, etc.

JL
(Religion and Politics grad student!)



Next flight.... who knows.
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4891 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1137 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
It simply constitutes a lack of religious fanaticism.

I see where you're coming from, the reason I cited Holland in particular is that Holland as we know it came about from protestantism, William of Orange blah blah blah. So if excpetions can be made in such a situation I felt that there was not that much zest for religion.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineQANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1132 times:

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 16):
We can't ask our future King Christian XI yet since he is not yet one year old. We ask him many questions, but the only answer is a royal "Waaaaeeh".

Considering his mother's extraordinary dedication to remain consistent with royal traditions, methinks that young Prince Christian will remain a christian whether he wants to or not!

QF


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1120 times:

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 14):
Quoting Banco (Reply 9):
disestablishmentarianism

Cheers for working that one into a sentence!

:D

I was quite pleased with that too.  Wink



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1116 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 9):
Not just accurate, but also extremely elegantly put, QFF.

 yuck 

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 14):
Quoting Banco (Reply 9):
disestablishmentarianism

Cheers for working that one into a sentence!

 yuck   yuck 

Quoting Banco (Reply 20):
:D

I was quite pleased with that too.

 yuck   yuck   yuck 

What's with the bloody love-in you two ??

I think i prefer it when you're both hurling insults  Wink



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4022 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1116 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 3):
I guess that might constitute a lack of religious faith.

I guess it might, if you are so narrow-minded as to be unable to accept someone's love for someone else without questioning their religion.

(BTW - this is not necessarily you, only people who actually think like that)

Quoting Banco (Reply 9):
disestablishmentarianism

Wow, that is one big word!

Is it true about the fact that he wants the Church of England to stop being the official religion of the country (of the Commonwealth?) ? Would that mean he would no longer be that head of it?
If that is the case I respect him even more than I do now (and I have a profound aversion for all things monarchical).



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineQANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1109 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 22):
(of the Commonwealth?)

It is not the official religion of the Commonwealth. Most Commonwealth member states (including yours) have no state church nor official religion.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 22):
Would that mean he would no longer be that head of it?

He would remain the head of the Church of England, but the Church of England would cease to be the official state church. To use another example - if Australia were to become a Republic, the Queen would still retain amid her personal titles, the title of "Queen of Australia".

QFF


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1095 times:

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 23):
if Australia were to become a Republic, the Queen would still retain amid her personal titles, the title of "Queen of Australia".

Really? How would that be?

Quoting Cornish (Reply 21):
What's with the bloody love-in you two ??

Get back to your Janet and John books, ignorant oaf.  snooty 



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
25 Post contains images Cornish : Get with the times - John split with Janet years ago. These days its John and Jermaine his co-habiting "friend" of Afro-Carribbean Origin
26 QANTASforever : The same way that Constantine II of Greece is still known as the Greek King, or the way that the Portugese Royals maintain their titles. There are ma
27 Banco : But usually that's a claim rather than anything else. I'd have thought that in such circumstances she'd renounce it immediately.
28 Pelican : I just applied a simple logic which was probably too simplistic. Denmark has a state church and therefore I thought your head of state is also head o
29 QANTASforever : Not always. A convention exists within the house of Windsor, that even after realms have become independent republics (such as India and Ireland), ti
30 Banco : Well, you learn something new everyday. Mind you, I never saw those titles ever being used. Would have been somewhat insensitive.
31 Pyrex : Portugal in the commonwealth? We are a republic since 1910, long before the current fruitcake was born. They may maintain their titles but who, other
32 MD11Engineer : This is the result of the Westfalian Peace, which ended the 30 year war. It was agreed that the ruler of the country would decide on the religion of
33 Post contains images LOT767-300ER : Even if I was Danish and not a Polak....I still wouldnt name my kid after a Nissan...no matter WHAT cultural tradition it might have had. Now if she
34 Pelican : I've just looked on the German wikipedia and it says the head of folkekirken is the Danish monarch. So it's not unlikely that your Queen is also head
35 QANTASforever : Dear god yes. The only time I heard them mentioned since Irish and Indian independence was at the Queen Mother's funeral. My apologies - I thought fo
36 Prebennorholm : Okay Pelikan, when it is written in the German Wikipedia, then I believe that it is a fact. Even if it has had no practical meaning for a few hundred
37 QANTASforever : Not anymore. Methinks his wife, who apparently is the one wearing the pants in that relationship these days - wouldn't put up with it. QFF
38 Banco : Um. Are you saying you actually watched the funeral? I'm curious. Why?
39 Post contains images Pelican : Well, I would never claim that it has any practical meaning (at least not since 1849) besides probably (I don't know) some ceremonial ones. Me thinks
40 Post contains images Qantasforever : It's work - it's opposition research. It's like how the allies observed the movements of the axis powers in order to defeat them. QFF
41 Post contains images Banco : I'm sure you'll find there was very little movement in that particular case. I reckon you're a closet royalist personally. Denial in a person isn't a
42 QANTASforever : So...this makes you a Republican? Seriously though - surely it carries more weight if I'm fully informed of all matters Royal yet still support the Q
43 Post contains images Banco : I'm not as far off as you might think, you know - my father is! It's just that I don't see any change for us as an improvement. I certainly don't sup
44 QANTASforever : Or not. Look at Ireland. As I've said before, the monarchy has the added benefit of actually being British - so you've got that whole national pride
45 Post contains images Banco : There is that. But given that it would be down to politicians to create such a system, I have a certain lack of faith in the way they'd do it.
46 QANTASforever : Well.. I'm not a politician, and I'm trying to create a system. Nothing's stopping either you or someone like you from drafting and promoting an alte
47 Banco : But as I said, I'm not particularly unhappy with the present arrangement. It works well enough, and I don't see any change as a definitive improvemen
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