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Does Hugo Chavez Have "Takeover" Plan For Southern  
User currently offlineMrmeangenes From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 566 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2284 times:

I'm addressing this primarily to our Latin American Members.

I saw something yesterday (not sure where or how accurate) which suggested Hugo Chavez is planning to field the largest army in the Southern Hemisphere.

The obvious question is "Why ?"

This triggered a recollection of something that came up quite some time ago about Chavez' new "Bolivarian Republic" flag - which has 7 stars, and which does not quite jibe with the 6 states in Venezuela.

I thought at the time-perhaps the "7th state" might be Cuba; and that,further down the road,the two nations might join under one leader-thus "solving" the problem of what will happen to Cuba when the aging Fidel runs out of time.

Later it occurred to me the 7 stars could also represent the 7 nations Presidente Chavez plans to incorporate into his new Bolivarian Republic !

Cuba,Venezuela,Ecuador,Bolivia,Peru,Colombia...and Mexico-whose Luis Obrador is a Chavez supporter,according to published reports. Obrador is running for president of Mexico,and stands a fair chance of winning.

The 7th star could also represent Argentina or Brazil (despite the language difference).

A "super nation" made up of the 7 named countries - or one of the alternatives - could control most of the vital resources (legal and illegal) of the Hemisphere.

Any thoughts on this ?


gene
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAbrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5074 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2279 times:

Actually, the flag now has 8 stars. Refer to this article for reference - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Venezuela#2006_changes.

Cheers,
A.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlineMrmeangenes From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2271 times:

Thank you very much for pointing out my error !

8 stars : 8 Member nations ?



gene
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2258 times:

An interesting point:

Quote:

Venezuela claims that the Essequibo is the true border between it and Guyana, claiming all territory west of it (roughly 70% of Guyanese territory).

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essequibo_River



It seems that Chavez has expansionist aspirations.

Jan


User currently offlineDrewfly From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 303 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2254 times:

It seems to me that Chavez is making himself out to be the Kim Jong of the West. He is creating a massive army to counter the 'threat' of an American invasion. Chavez has stated publicy that the US is planning to invade Venezuela, and this build up IMO can be seen as a continuation of that fear mongering rhetoric he has been sprouting. A recent alliance with Iran only reinforces what I see as the beginning of a new militaristic dictatorship in the Americas, picking up where Castro left off when he dies.

[Edited 2006-04-04 16:57:26]


A-10 Thunderbolt II, ugly as hell, efficient as hell, would you like to meet my boomstick?
User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2570 posts, RR: 31
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2240 times:

Hi Gene,

As much as I believe Chavez is the worst president Venezuela has ever had, I think this 8th star has to do more with a historic Simon Bolivar wish of having an 8th star resembling the newly liberated province of Guayana.

With 8 stars we are still missing two important provinces that had a later incorporation to the independence cause which were: Maracaibo and Coro. MPs from those regions demanded ,during the writing of the new flag law, that if Guayana had its star then 2 more stars had to be added to represent Maracaibo and Coro so the flag would've had 10 stars instead of 8. Their efforts failed because of superior orders coming from Miraflores Palace (or La Habana?).

I rule out that the extra star means an axis of leftist countries or anything like that.

Regarding weapons.... well, he's only buying weapons from Russia in order to piss off the US. The equipment he is trying to buy from Spain is only for surveilliance, it can't be used as offensive weaponary. Again this is just to piss off the USA which had been our main arms supplier.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis


User currently offlineMrmeangenes From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2235 times:

See that ? Luis, with a few sentences,cures me of my wild surmise !

Thank you, Luis, for your prompt and gentlemanly response.  ashamed 



gene
User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2570 posts, RR: 31
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2233 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
Venezuela claims that the Essequibo is the true border between it and Guyana, claiming all territory west of it (roughly 70% of Guyanese territory).

This claim goes back to the 19th century when the British Empire unilaterally annexed the Venezuelan esequibo. By the time they did so, Venezuela was a war-torn country that was in the middle of a Civil War. We were deep in poverty and most of the male population had died or was wounded in the war.

Venezuela requested help from the US beacuse the British refused to hold diplomatic talks with a non-white govertment. The US intervined and agreed to represent Venezuela's interest in the talks that took place in London.

The aftermath of that round of talks is the current border between Venezuela and Guyana. The US said they did help us because they convinced the British not to set the border on the Orinoco River!. Apparentely British's ambitions included the gold rich Orinoco basin.

By the time Guyana won its independence from the UK in the 1960s, the Venezuelan govt. held talks with its new guyanese counterpart and signed a declaration that says that the Treaty signed by the US and UK in the 1800s was null and void and that a new treaty had to be signed.

The Venezuelan esequibo is part of all Venezuelan maps with a small note saying: Area in Dispute. Most of the Venezuelan esequibo guyanese population cross freely the unguarded border into Venezuela to buy medicine, go to the doctor, give their kids education, etc.... all of this is because the lack of interest by the Guyanese govt. to provide basic services to their people west of the Esequibo. It is worth reminding that the majority of the Guyanese population lives East of the Esequibo. Most of the guyanese that live west of the esequibo wish to become part of Venezuela.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2232 times:

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 5):
I rule out that the extra star means an axis of leftist countries or anything like that.

I think I agree.

I believe Sr. Chavez understands that it is more fun being a strutting banty rooster spitting defiance at the US than being a dead, deposed dictator - which would be the inevitable result if he posed a serious threat to the "stability" of the Western Hemisphere.

We've seen it with Libya and a host of other countries. Hell, we've seen it with no less a personage than Fidel himself, making an agreement with the Soviet Union to put their missiles on his island to "defend" it against US imperialism. Ultimately he backed down or he would now be forty years dead.

I don't think the US ever wanted any real empire in Latin America and so, we have never really been any threat to their sovereignty. What we want is "trading partners" which means that their own local robber barons can do local crowd control - we'll just be a market.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4299 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2183 times:

You serious? Chavez invading Brazil or Argentina? That's insane. Maybe he has some crazy plans for a new Greater Venezuela (used to be Gran Colombia), but the Southern Cone were never part of that, much less Portuguese Brazil. Why would he do that?

He can field 2 million troops if he wants to, but how would he managed the supply lines for starters? I don't know about Brazil, but you can't seriously believe Venezuela would win an industrial war with Brazil... ?

As for Argentina, Argentina's Air Force is still the among the best in the hemisphere. Right now the equipment is outdated, but with a great renewal of it's technological base underway soon, plus the skill and tactical experience of it's pilots by far the best in the region, Chavez would be crazy to attack. His standing army would be blown to bits from the air alone.

Argentina's navy is no match for 1st world powers, but it is actually very modern with ships from the 1990s and younger, and I'm sure larger than Venezuela's at least now. And with the most submarines in the region and 3 more on the way, how would Chavez say launch an invasion from the ocean? His ships would be bombed from the air (and even the British Navy suffered in that aspect), and from under the surface...

I don't see it. Chavez is a total loser in his speeches, but then again are many other presidents with their silly rhetoric.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineKomododx From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2171 times:

Colombia will never (mark my words) be incorporated into Venezuela. Let alone under the leadership of right-wing president Alvaro Uribe.

Stefano  wave 


User currently offlineMrmeangenes From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2137 times:

Derico,when I posted, I was "thinking out loud" - and rather speculatively at that. Luis from Venezuela pointed out some interesting and clarifying facts-which led me to believe even Hugo was not that loco !

Old timers like me can embarrass themselves in public rather easily; so I'm glad I was among friends !



gene
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6785 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2119 times:

Chavez is aligned with Castro, and Chavez is aligned with Obrador.

Imagine a Venezuela, Cuba and Mexico united...and people still question why illegal aliens and unchecked borders are in fact a threat to US sovereignty?

Meangenes- I think the premise of your thread is not out of the realm of possibility. And should be considered seriously.


User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2099 times:

Well isn't one of the main ideals of "Bolivarianism" promoting the unification of Latin America into one country?

If so, then I would say the answer to the question is "Yes".
No matter how crazy the idea might be in reality.



Delete this User
User currently offlineKomododx From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2076 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 13):
If so, then I would say the answer to the question is "Yes".
No matter how crazy the idea might be in reality.

The idea ain't crazy. Of course, it's really easy to assume that all the people in Latin America are poor and embrace Chavez's so called revolution. As said previously, ain't gonna happen in Colombia, or in several other LatAm countries for that matter.

Stefano  wave 


User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2053 times:

Quoting Komododx (Reply 14):
The idea ain't crazy. Of course, it's really easy to assume that all the people in Latin America are poor and embrace Chavez's so called revolution. As said previously, ain't gonna happen in Colombia, or in several other LatAm countries for that matter.

I do not understand your response.
You say the idea of Bolivarianism isn't crazy, yet you say it will never happen in Colombia, or other nations for that fact.
For someone to be a proponent of an ideal like Hugo is of this, and for this ideal to be universally opposed over much of the territory he has his eyes on, to me, is crazy, at least wishful thinking.

Just finished watching the documentary on the recall election. The passion this man instills in people is something to behold...both negative, and positive.

Unlike other parts of the world where politics is mostly an afterthought. I can be sitting in a pub next to someone who dislikes Blair, but his animus towards the man ends at the end of the chat...soon the conversation is on to football, or the weather, or the upcoming holiday in Spain...the matter of politics is over, and mostly forgotten.

There is almost a wait and see attitude. People may not like what Blair does, but that could easily be swayed by tomorrow's headline. Those that REALLY love the guy, (And I haven't met any of those) aren't displaying the kind of behaviour we see Chavex supporters possess.

However in Venezuela, it is either deep passionate love for this man Chavez, or black hatred....no middle ground.
Be afraid of the polarizing figures...and this guy is totally black and white.
That is right scary stuff, coming from a man on the outside looking in.



Delete this User
User currently offlineKomododx From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2049 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 15):
You say the idea of Bolivarianism isn't crazy, yet you say it will never happen in Colombia, or other nations for that fact.

It isn't crazy in the sense that it existed in the past (Gran Colombia anyone?). It might not be so crazy if there was a middle-of-the-road, right-of-center (or left-of-center for that matter) leader. However, Chavez is seen as a mad man by many in Latin America. And although left-wing governments may rise to power, the truth is that the elite in the better countries in Latin America won't let a mad man like Chavez come to power (I think a lesson has been learned from Venezuela's case). Unfortunately, the leftist media portray Chavez as a savior of the poor... which is untrue. We're talking about people that literally have nothing. Sure, give 'em a few bucks in exchange of support, but if you look closely, is that really what these people need? These people need educational reform, for starters. Ain't gonna happen. On top of this, it seems Venezuela is going the way of Bolivia in reclaiming it's natural resources' explotation from the major corporation. Sure, you can argue that this is what's best for a country, but not when you have a corrupt mad man as a leader.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 15):

However in Venezuela, it is either deep passionate love for this man Chavez, or black hatred....no middle ground.
Be afraid of the polarizing figures...and this guy is totally black and white.
That is right scary stuff, coming from a man on the outside looking in.

I think my point above explains this. The dirt poor don't care, as long as they get a few bucks every month. Add to them Chavez's corrupt goons (Alvaray and Chacon) plus those who fear him, and you have the "pro" side of it. On the other side you have the elite which, despite their money and power, are slowly getting screwed, along with the middle class, which is and will end up being the biggest loser of all this.

I think the major question is... how and when are we going to get rid of him?

Stefano  wave 


User currently offlinePdpsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1110 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2049 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 12):
Imagine a Venezuela, Cuba and Mexico united...and people still question why illegal aliens and unchecked borders are in fact a threat to US sovereignty?

Sorry, but what do Lopez de Obrador and Chavez have to do with illegal immigration? Also, Lopez de Obrador is a presidential candidate; he is not the president of Mexico.

Are you suggesting, should Lopez de Obrador win the presidential elections this year, he would attempt to send "secret agents" posing as illegal immigrants into the US? I can just imagine it; bus boys and gardeners threatening US national security...


User currently offlineMrmeangenes From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2024 times:

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 17):
Are you suggesting, should Lopez de Obrador win the presidential elections this year, he would attempt to send "secret agents" posing as illegal immigrants into the US? I can just imagine it; bus boys and gardeners threatening US national security...

I think some folks were worried Venezuela and Mexico might pool their petroleum resources-then cut the US supply off.(Mexico has discovered a huge offshore supply.)

I doubt it.



gene
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1989 times:

Quoting Komododx (Reply 16):
It might not be so crazy if there was a middle-of-the-road, right-of-center (or left-of-center for that matter) leader. However, Chavez is seen as a mad man by many in Latin America. And although left-wing governments may rise to power, the truth is that the elite in the better countries in Latin America won't let a mad man like Chavez come to power (I think a lesson has been learned from Venezuela's case).

Thank you for the explanation.

During this documentary I mentioned that I watched, they showed a scene shot during one of Chavez's home/property giveaways. What a "dog and pony show"!
How many homes/properties does he actually give away? And how many people live in the country?
I can see how he has the poor and uneducated eating out of his hand.

So how long do we think he will last? And who is waiting off in the wings to take his place?



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User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2570 posts, RR: 31
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1983 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 19):
How many homes/properties does he actually give away? And how many people live in the country?

During his first year of goverment, he promised to giveaway 100.000 houses each year but in reality by 2005's years end he had only givenaway 115.000, which equals to aprox. 19.170 houses per year. Not even 20% of what he promised.

Venezuela's population is around 26 million of which aprox 2 million are foreigners.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis


User currently offlineTheredbaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2191 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1975 times:

Lopez Obrador could win Mexico Presidency (it looks not very posible now), but even if he is a big Chavez Buddy, the majority of Mexico Population hates Chavez (at least the polls hav shown that).


So dont worry the Canada/USA/Mexico Meeting last Week in CUN, was good according to FOX and he said that He and GWB talked about Chavez and foreign affairs, and Fox was really happy..I really wonder what they talked about?



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2570 posts, RR: 31
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1969 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 9):

He can field 2 million troops if he wants to, but how would he managed the supply lines for starters? I don't know about Brazil, but you can't seriously believe Venezuela would win an industrial war with Brazil... ?

How could Chavez think about invading his two most important allies in S. America? it's completely nonsense.

Quoting Derico (Reply 9):
Chavez would be crazy to attack. His standing army would be blown to bits from the air alone.

Well let me tell you that if there ever was a war between ARG and VEN, I wouldn't give more than 2 days before the ARG air force would be disabled. Venezuela's air force is indeed one of the most powerful south of the Rio Grande (if not the most powerful). The F-16s alongside the recently upgraded Mirages and the upgraded F-5s are no match to A-4s and outdated Mirages. You have to remember that the F-16 Venezuelan pilots used to participate in the Red Flag excersices in Nellis AFB in Nevada. In two occassions they scored higher than the Israeli pilots which are the best in the world.

I don't believe it's a coincidence that Colombia's claims over Venezuela Golf's water stopped after the incident in the gulf's waters in the mid 80s when a wing of F16s and Mirages flew over a Colombian frigate that was inside Venezuela's territorial waters. The frigate quickly turned back and withdrew at full speed especially after the captain saw the Exocets under the Mirages.

The FAV is expecting the delivery of brand new Embraer AMX trainer-jets to replace the Tucanos and is in talks with Embraer to buy a couple of E145 Survelliance Jets.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis


User currently offlineMonteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 29
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1952 times:

Will someone hurry up and get this guy out of there before he does some real damage?

The guy is the definition of an idiot.



It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
User currently offlineTheredbaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2191 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1951 times:

Sadly the way Latin America Politic are being played out (rich are bad people, poor people have the right to power etc) will eventually colapse some governments and some f them will resort to war in the effort to stay in power, it happened in the 80 with the Argentine Junta and the Falklands War, and Chavez is the perfect Wacko to do it....


The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
25 Luisde8cd : I also wonder about the same thing, interesting huh? Saludos desde Caracas, Luis
26 Post contains images Komododx : Those are the two major question marks. How long will he last and, more importantly, who would replace him? The opposition seems to be totally shunne
27 Slider : The calculus is such: Fox has been openly defiant, demanding that the US allow unchecked illegal immigration from Mexico (considering Mexico's #1 rev
28 Post contains images Komododx : Something tells me Lopez Obrador is full of sh!t. I was reading an article on the WSJ on how he's been attacking the major banks in Mexico (many owned
29 Pdpsol : "Openly defiant", what are you talking about? President Fox is one of our strongest allies. Both President Bush and President Fox see eye-to-eye on r
30 Stirling : I was thinking there is more ways than all out War to get what he wants in South America..... Does Chavez have the money, and the know-how to fund po
31 Derico : If it was fought today yes. I did point out Argentina's air force is totally outdated, so I was agreeing with you there. Every country in this hemisp
32 Post contains links and images Komododx : I think you're kidding yourself for not believing it. Venezuela's military forces (esp the Air Force) are quite superior. Check this out. Stefano
33 Post contains images Derico : Stefano, quite superior to whom? Please. And even if I accept that premise, I'd like to know how LOGISTICALLY speaking they could conduct and wage an
34 Post contains links and images Komododx : I'm sure it would deliver a can of whoopass to your country any minute. Did I say all of South America? No, because you pondered the idea of Venezuel
35 PPVRA : I'd say the best equiped Airforce in the continent, as far as fighters goes, is the FACH... not sure about their logistics, though. And they seem kind
36 Derico : Komodox, I'm not arguing Venezuela's Air Force. In my original post I said that NOW Argentina could not win against Bolivia with it's Air Force. Beca
37 Post contains images Komododx : Ahhh I see. I guess I have to reread before posting! Me either. Besides, other countries would get involved, it would only be a mess Stefano
38 Derico : That's ok, I did not make myself totally clear either so it's not a problem. Quite honestly what bothers me is that in the United States they always s
39 Mrmeangenes : This discussion really expanded ! There is, of course, more than one way to "take over" a hemisphere. The military power is useful for putting down sm
40 Pdpsol : Derico, I must say I COMPLETELY agree with your analysis here. Other than an idealistic affiliation with his 'anti-imperialistic' rhetoric, Chavez ho
41 Post contains links Slider : Yeah, that's the freaking problem! They see eye to eye on destroying the borders. http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/01/10/D8F1LRCO5.html Sorry, wron
42 Post contains links LTU932 : I read in the newspaper today that Chávez is training a Civil Guard which will fight off a US military invasion of Venezuela, which Hugo considers im
43 Abrelosojos : Until the elite of Latin America get off their privileged horses and recognize the need for a just society, people like Chavez will continue to get po
44 Slider : Exactly- that's why they need internal reforms so badly....these radical populists, who point to the bogeyman up north, get traction based on false--
45 Derico : That is why there is little risk of Chavez gaining ground in Argentina: large middle class (and growing again), far less of disparity between the wea
46 PPVRA : We have that. Or did, now it depends on your income IIRC. In theory, ya, we do, too... None of the above are rights, though. And it's questionable ho
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