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Bush Tax Cuts Are A Boon For The Wealthy  
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2222 times:

Proving once again that the GOP really doesn't understand economics, it seems that the richer 'n 'God Americans are becoming siginficantly more wealthy thanks to Mr. Bush.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/05/news/tax_cuts/index.htm?cnn=yes

The premise near the end of the article that tax cuts for the rich "don't go far enough", because of the belief that further tax cuts means further investing and spending by the rich, is just a falsehood. The rich are going to buy what they want, and invest what they want, with our without these huge tax breaks.

Give a larger tax break, not to the 2.6 million Americans who are wealthy beyond what anyone would need, but give it to the tens of millions that just get by everyday, and it'll be a bigger boost to the economy than giving these handouts to the wealthiest Americans.

But the GOP is "by the rich, of the rich, for the rich", so no one should really be surprised.

150 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2211 times:

Please tell me how giving someone who pays significantly more in taxes a greater share of the cut adversely affects you? Oh, and by the way JFK was a huge supporter of supply side tax cuts.

Everyone who pays taxes saw their taxes fall under this President. Funny but I don't see the Mass. trust fund democrats volunteering to pay extra in taxes. No sir, they took those savings and put them right into their pockets.

The left's position on this is just another example of their constant inferiority complex. You guys wish you made more money and are resentful of the fact that you don't.

Total tax revenues are up across the board (both individual and corporate). The problem with our budget right now is spending and the GOP has certainly lost all credibility in my book when it comes to fiscal responsibility.


User currently offlineArmitageShanks From UK - England, joined Dec 2003, 3625 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2208 times:

The more taxes you pay the more tax cuts you should get.

User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2204 times:

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 2):
The more taxes you pay the more tax cuts you should get.

Why should someone who works their ass off to get educated and make a lot of money have to fork most of it over to the government. And then why to people get annoyed when they get some of that back. The government is not Robin Hood, it's not their job to take from the rich to pay for the poor. It's the governments job to support the people who are hard up.

If people who have ton's of money choose to support the poor, great, if they don't, that's their choice too.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
The rich are going to buy what they want, and invest what they want, with our without these huge tax breaks.

Of course they will, and with more money, they can invest more into the economy.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2195 times:
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Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
The premise near the end of the article that tax cuts for the rich "don't go far enough", because of the belief that further tax cuts means further investing and spending by the rich, is just a falsehood

OK...then where does the money to start new companies, recapitalize old companies, or buy the manufactured goods, or employ the people come from?

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
The rich are going to buy what they want, and invest what they want, with our without these huge tax breaks.

If they have less to invest or spend then the economy suffers from that. If you prevent them from investing in the manner that made them rich in the first place then you're slowing down the economy and preventing people from being employed.

Why do you think the economy would work better if more taxes were taken out? Or why do you think that the economy would not be hurt by higher taxes.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2179 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 4):
OK...then where does the money to start new companies, recapitalize old companies, or buy the manufactured goods, or employ the people come from?

From the millions that those wealthy people had even before their huge tax breaks. That's where.  Smile

You see, if they're that wealthy, all that money does is make them richer. I don't buy the premise that someone already worth, say $26 million, is going to invest any more or any less with or without that tax break that gives them another million a year. They're probably going to sit on it.

This theory that these huge tax breaks for the mega-rich spur the economy is bunk. All it does is increase the gap between richest and everyone else, who, for the most part, don't get anything noticable from these tax breaks.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 4):
Why do you think the economy would work better if more taxes were taken out?

If you put more money in the hands of hard-working people like my wife and I, who are doing all we can to just stay ahead of the game-and there's a lot more people like us then there are the super-rich, you'd see a real increase in spending, because then people like us could maybe replace carpets, or add a four-season room, or buy a computer, or purchase a new car.

The mega-rich are going to buy what they want, when they want, even without these staggering tax breaks. Put more money in the hands of the "middle-class", what remains of it, and that will help the economy.


User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2176 times:

You're talking to brick walls there Fal. Here in the US, there is no such thing as having too much money. You can be worth millions or even billions and still call yourself a Christian for Christ's sake.


Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20632 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2174 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
The problem with our budget right now is spending and the GOP has certainly lost all credibility in my book when it comes to fiscal responsibility.

I would gather that if there was an "Iraqi war tax" enacted by Congress to lessen the burden on future generations, we wouldn't have to vote out our current legislative or executive branches, they'd be run out of town by crowds carrying buckets of tar and feathers.

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
Oh, and by the way JFK was a huge supporter of supply side tax cuts



Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 3):
Why should someone who works their ass off to get educated and make a lot of money have to fork most of it over to the government

The problem is that the way the tax cuts were designed this time around, income from passive activities, such as dividends and investments, were reduced at a disparate rate to income from one's labor. Those who do absolutely nothing to contribute to the economy received the largest tax cuts.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2169 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
You see, if they're that wealthy, all that money does is make them richer. I don't buy the premise that someone already worth, say $26 million, is going to invest any more or any less with or without that tax break that gives them another million a year. They're probably going to sit on it.

And that my friend summarizes your errors:

#1 - not taxing (or taxing at a reduced rate) doesn't mean that the government is giving them anything. It's just not taking as much. Remember, these people earned their money. The government is taking it from them. Libeals think that the government is entitled to take money from anyone and determine who it rightly belongs to.

#2 - your notion that you don't buy the premise that tax cuts (actually changes in tax codes that affect the computation of taxable income like depreciation, R&D tax credits and repatriation of foreign earnings) increase investment has been completely disproven by almost 100 years of direct evidence. In every instance that the government has made modifications to the tax code which ended up cutting taxes, total tax revenues have increased shortly thereafter. Remember, a rational investor considers their risk weighted after tax return. Therefore, if certain investments are tax preferred (thereby increasing their after tax return), investors are willing to invest more money in them at the same level of risk.

#3 - they're going to sit on it. Laughing out loud funny. Yeah, it's the very rich that keep their money in their mattresses under their beds instead of putting it in the stock market or investing in entreprenurial ventures. Come on. How can you even make that claim with a straight face.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2165 times:
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Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
. I don't buy the premise that someone already worth, say $26 million, is going to invest any more or any less with or without that tax break that gives them another million a year. They're probably going to sit on it.

No one....say this again....no one just sits on money. It's not in their mattresses for christs sake! They take that money and put it somewhere to earn interest. In the stock market (where they are investing in businesses) in the money market (which, like banks, invests money in other places) and directly into businesses. This all spurs employment and consumer spending.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
This theory that these huge tax breaks for the mega-rich spur the economy is bunk.

No, it isn't. Rich people using money freed up by tax breaks helped me start both businesses and employ 7 people and growing, while assisting other businesses survive and flourish....employing dozens...no, hundreds of other people. Serious business here, there is a finite amount of money for even the super-rich...they don't just print it out back. If you take their money from them at higher rates than for regular folks (which happens anyway unless they are willing to either cheat or invest in tax exempt ventures which return less) then they won't have as much to put into the economy.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):

If you put more money in the hands of hard-working people like my wife and I, who are doing all we can to just stay ahead of the game-and there's a lot more people like us then there are the super-rich, you'd see a real increase in spending, because then people like us could maybe replace carpets, or add a four-season room, or buy a computer, or purchase a new car.

Are you saying that rich people aren't hard working? Are you saying that they don't spend money on things that help you earn money? How many rich people spent money on first class airline tickets that helped pay your check?

Quoting SATX (Reply 6):
You're talking to brick walls there Fal. Here in the US, there is no such thing as having too much money.

Wow, where is having 'too much' money illegal? How much is 'too much'?

Quoting SATX (Reply 6):
You can be worth millions or even billions and still call yourself a Christian for Christ's sake.

So, you can't be rich and a Christian? Why? Is there some element of resentment or jealousy causing this expression on your part? Are you saying that people should not be allowed to accumulate wealth?



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2161 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
The mega-rich are going to buy what they want, when they want, even without these staggering tax breaks

That guy who makes 250K a year isn't sitting at his office right now thinking, "Oh goodie, with this tax break, I think I'll put some new tyres on the SUV...."

However the guy going off to work right now in a car on 4 bald tyres is thinking, "I hope the tyres hold out until I can afford some new ones..."

A 500USD tax break to the middle class would have a much greater effect on the economy than a 2000USD break for the super wealthy.

Like Falcon84 already stated, What would that 2000 buy that they don't already have? Except maybe some new furniture for the vacation home in Cabo. Or some nice imported products like clothing or consumer electronics that just add to the trade deficit anyway....so what's the point.
Damned if you, Damned if you don't. It's why I'm not in politics, it makes me noggin hurt.

The problem as I see it, in order to make US businesses more competitive on the world market, they have been given substantial tax breaks and waivers.
That lost revenue needs to come from somewhere....
I am not an expert by any means and I don't have any answers, but major corporations with "0" tax bills, while the small guy is saddled with a bill representing half his income is just not right.

The system needs to change but I know it never will. The tenacles of the corporate world extend too deep for any meaningful change to occur.

So with that said, Any tax break is purely election year fodder, something the Republican candidates can run with during the upcoming election...even tho' most people hearing it will be saying, "Wha....? What tax cut? I didn't see no tax cut!" Thats because the supply-side guys are running the show deary. You haven't earned enough to be included in the party!



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User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2161 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 8):
Remember, these people earned their money.

Some of them earned it. Some "earned" it the old-fashioned way-via inheritance. They've earned it-they're wealthy beyond belief. They don't need anymore incentive to invest or buy. They can invest or buy whatever the hell they want. Instead of front-loading tax breaks for those people, back-laod them, as it were, for those of us in the middle, barely getting buy, so we can do a lot more for the economy than that million tax break will do for someone worth $50 million.

The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and those of us in the middle subsidize both.

Quoting Pope (Reply 8):
#3 - they're going to sit on it. Laughing out loud funny. Yeah, it's the very rich that keep their money in their mattresses under their beds instead of putting it in the stock market or investing in entreprenurial ventures.

Don't be patronizing. They're going to put it in a mutual fund, and just the interest grow. That's what it will do.

Amazing how you guys support the rich getting richer, and the rest of us falling further and further back. And you REALLY think that's GOOD for the economy? That only an elite few can participate in it? Uh, OK.


User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2154 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 6):
You can be worth millions or even billions and still call yourself a Christian for Christ's sake.

You can easily be a multi-millionaire or a billionaire and still be a good Christian. Since when is a person's religion affected by the amount in the pay check.

AAndrew


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2154 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
So, you can't be rich and a Christian? Why?

What did Christ say, Ian: "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than it is for a rich man to enter Heaven."

Just words to ponder.

And when is too much too much? You approve of this obscene wealth that some people have, while many Americans can barely stay ahead? When people around the world can't even get one decent meal a day?

Having that much money, in my mind, is almost an obscenity, when there's so much suffering in this world.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20632 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2152 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
What did Christ say, Ian: "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than it is for a rich man to enter Heaven."

But one would never expect a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Another one of those things in the bible where you have to suspend belief to believe.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17491 posts, RR: 45
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2137 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
If you put more money in the hands of hard-working people like my wife and I,

This is such an unbelievably loaded statement... Why is the middle class always "hard working" and the rich "unnecessarily wealthy"? I don't think it's even worth having this discussion if this is the loaded, completely one sided starting point. How much taxes is "enough taxes" for the rich? What should they be paying? Should they be paying more than 50%? 60%? When will the Left be satisfied that "the rich" are paying "enough"?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offline767Lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2136 times:

It's easy to cast data/facts in a certain light.

Yes, rich people who have investments (which is how many of them got rich in the first place) see a larger cut because their investment number is higher to begin with.

However, there are many, many lower-income and middle-income people who hold stock. Many people who are soon to retiring or already retired have most of their assets tied up in stock--especially if they've been a "lifer" at a major corporation like IBM or GE. I'm sure a lifetime administrative assistance at a place like GE has a substantial amount of her retirement savings in GE stock.

When my retired dad makes $20,000 on Home Depot stock, it's nice that he isn't penalized so much for that investment and contributing to the cash flow of a company that in turn has employed thousands of people.


User currently offline767Lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2124 times:

I believe a more pressing concern is to:

1) curtail offshore incorporation (also would require some revising of the tax code to make it less attractive to try to incorporate offshore)

2) step up collections of delinquent taxes. My accountant told me that the Governor of Georgia increased tax revenues significantly, not through increased taxes but through an aggressive effort to collect delinquent or unreported taxes.

I read a stat somewhere that the amount of US tax revenue lost due to offshore incorporation was in the double-digit billions during the 1990s.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2120 times:
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Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
They're going to put it in a mutual fund,

Mutual funds invest in the stock market, and that means they're investing in business. Also, a mutual fund is the means for the average joe to get into the stock market without needing large sums of cash.

Falcon and Satx believe that you should not be rich, or so it seems from their posts. I wonder what's going to happen when a particular online entrepreneur I know becomes rather rich from his incredibly great idea for an online shopping mall
(what did he call that? Oh, yeah.. http://www.yourcornermall.com/ ..damn good idea! I even use it, so we know the entrepreneur is working for the money....)
takes off and forces him to recognize that paying higher percentages of taxes can be oppressive and unfair to people who earned their money.

The idea that one can be too rich is one that is promulgated by those who feel that they'll never be able to be that successful and are resentful of those who are. They then work to punish those who succeed and take from them that which they earned beyond what the rest of society must pay percentagewise. Well, that's counterproductive to the economy. A person should pay based on consumption rather than income. Hey...but that's another thread (fair tax anyone?).



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2117 times:

It is very nice to be 'rich'.  Smile

First problem on increasing taxes. Lets say the cigarette taxes. For a 'rich' person, that increase is not that big. For a poor person, that increase is very substantial. Any tax increase will affect the poor more than the rich.

If you take 50% (overall tax burden) for a person making $200,000 a year, that still leaves them with a good chunk of money. Do the same to a person making $50,000 and see what happens.

People fail to see real world connections between taxes and spending. The Clinton tax on yatches (for the rich) is a prime example. They tried to tax the rich, but all it did was eliminate an industry, as the rich went to other places to get their yatchs built.

On a similar aside, years ago an old friend told me how he had shoplifted some clothing. He then claimed that it didnt matter because the company would 'write-off' or eat the loss. To which I had to reply that the company increases the price of its product 20% to counteract the shoplifting losses.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20632 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2117 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
Mutual funds invest in the stock market, and that means they're investing in business.

This is a common misconception about how our economy works. If you buy stocks on the open market, all you're doing is providing liquidity to the markets, there are no dollars that are directly invested into a business.

Purchasing IPO's, commercial paper, etc., is a whole 'nother story, but not the function of most mutual funds.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2112 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 20):
there are no dollars that are directly invested into a business.

Then where does that money go?


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2112 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
Mutual funds invest in the stock market, and that means they're investing in business. Also, a mutual fund is the means for the average joe to get into the stock market without needing large sums of cash

Maybe so, but they're putting it there for themselves, nothing else, Ian. It basically gives the rich even more money they don't need. For someone like me, it's used sort of like an emergency fund, not to pad my stats.

Big difference, if you ask me.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
Falcon and Satx believe that you should not be rich, or so it seems from their posts.

Not at all, Ian. but when is enough enough, for crying out loud? $26 million? $1 billion? $50 billion? Most of these hyper-rich people, Ian, can't begin to think what to do with all the money they have. That $1 million tax break is like pocket change to them, as 4 quarters would be to me, man. That extra million in tax breaks won't make them decide not to buy a yacht, a third of fourth vacation home; expensive jewelry. You get the drift. But put $1000 or $2000 in the hands of, say, 70 or 80 million average joes, and you'll see people spend that money. Hell, most won't even spend THAT on the economy, except to pay off bills, most likely.

It isn't the rich who need the tax relief; it's the middle class, which is being squeezed more and more.

I don't buy all this stuff about this tax break helping the rich be the engine for the economy. I never will. Most of them can't begin to spend what they have, and you think it's good to give them more money that they won't know what to do with?

Uh, OK.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2109 times:
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Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 20):
If you buy stocks on the open market, all you're doing is providing liquidity to the markets, there are no dollars that are directly invested into a business.

So you're saying that the money on the market does not impact businesses? That the money invested in the market is not used to increase the capitalization of the listed businesses?



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20632 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2109 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 21):
Then where does that money go?

It goes to the previous holder of the investment. For instance, I could start up a company, sell stock, and y'all could buy and sell the stock for the next 20 years, and my company wouldn't see a dime past the initial proceeds of the IPO.



International Homo of Mystery
25 AeroWesty : Market capitalization is simply a figure that is based upon the number of shares outstanding multiplied by the price someone is willing to pay for sa
26 SFOMEX : Us and they, they and us is a classist as it comes. Tax cuts must be for ALL and every one of us who work one way or other. If your tax cut is smalle
27 AeroWesty : Yes.
28 Falcon84 : Grand words. But the "tax cut" I get, I don't ever really see. It's not enough to help me or the economy at all, if I so choose. But give it to someo
29 Post contains images MaverickM11 : ...and they are generally lower risk than putting all your money into your own company's shares, That's called savings. Honestly
30 AeroWesty : And a well-balanced self-invested portfolio will have less risk than a mutual fund, and incur fewer front-end, back-end, and maintenance fees, percen
31 Pope : So now you get to decide whether someone is worthy of the money they have. Let's look at the mega rich. The Gates, Buffets and Waltons (three family
32 Post contains images 767Lover : Last time I checked products and services were being bought up by people of all economic levels. Which is why so many people have enormous amount of
33 MaverickM11 : ...makes one wonder if there might be a correlation between knowledge of financial markets, or economics period, and the fact that all these "hard wo
34 AeroWesty : Again, investing in the stock market only provides liquidity to the markets. It does not directly invest in a business, except when purchasing IPO's,
35 Pope : Agreed. But market liquidity is fundamental for people to make investments in business ventures. There aren't too many people investing in illiquid i
36 AeroWesty : That is correct. Nearly every law enacted to govern the financial markets is written to preserve liquidity, a telling sign. However, Falcon wrote an
37 MaverickM11 : Which one was that?
38 AeroWesty : This one, where Pope made a feeble stab in Falcon's direction that I referenced:
39 Pope : Please point me to this accurate end result scenario. Everything I've seen he's written on this thread has been 100% wrong. The notion that tax cuts
40 Pope : Let's add one more to the list - most mutual funds generate the vast majority of their returns through capital appreciation and dividends - NOT inter
41 AeroWesty : See Reply #38, referencing your feeble attempt to bring someone down with your own lack of understanding. Falcon may have gotten the word wrong, "int
42 AeroWesty : It's really a semantics issue more than anything, and something I pointed out in my previous reply before seeing your Reply #40. Mutual funds that in
43 Pope : That notion is laughable. How many poor people do you see making venture capital investment? The rich are the ones who take their money and invest it
44 767Lover : So, to your line of thinking, wealthy people should just pay more for all taxes, even at the retail level. They should be charged, say 50% extra sale
45 AeroWesty : Let's see your Series 7 license, and then we'll talk. Not flip-flopping at all. I realized after reading your reply, that I'd have to dumb it down fo
46 Pope : Funny how when you guys are wrong, the explanation always seems to be "semantics". But as I pointed out, not only was the statement factually wrong -
47 Texdravid : All this talk about Tax cuts both pro and con is useless now. There won't be more tax cuts, and if McCain or any of the Democrats take the WH in 2009,
48 Post contains images AeroWesty : Tut, tut. Do a word search on this thread. I brought up liquidity ages ago.
49 Pope : I do not have a Series 7 license, but I think my brokerage and bank account statements provide a tremendous amount of credibility that the ideas I've
50 Jetjack74 : This is just another example of liberals wanting to punish those who are successful. Income redistrbution is nothing new to those on the far-left. For
51 AeroWesty : How nice. Now I know how pilots on here feel when someone with a few hours of MS Flight Sim start talking down a 747 captain.
52 Pope : Oh yeah. I have a PPL as well. About 240 hours. But you keep trying to change the subject. Alphafalcon has been completely incorrect about everything
53 AeroWesty : Look, you got called out on a single sentence where you incorrectly called out Falcon. Now you want to make this into another world war. Stop it alre
54 Pope : I agree with what you're saying but you're still leaving out a bunch of stuff. Let's analyze just how "fair" the tax code is. Has anyone heard of a p
55 AeroWesty : Boo hoo. My 2005 tax liability was :: drum roll :: $0. Thank you, President Bush.
56 Pope : You've yet to demonstrate what statement Alphafalcon was correct in. You yourself admit that mutual funds play a very important role in the capital m
57 Pope : Once again, proving my point.
58 AeroWesty : I've quoted it twice, ain't gonna a third time, just for the amusement of others to watch me type.
59 AeroWesty : Which of the many divergent ones you've posted? I've never hidden in any thread that I'm the recipient of income that is non-taxable under the curren
60 Jetjack74 : I wish I could, but it isn't.
61 Post contains links Pope : Excellent article on Yahoo finance today about taxes: http://finance.yahoo.com/columnist/article/economist/3470
62 DL021 : Forgive me for simplifying the process for the purpose of shortened typing. Money exchanged on Wall Street is not directly put into companies, but to
63 Post contains images AeroWesty : Not always the case. People do, yes. But knowingly or not, they are simply playing the liquidity game, just like everyone else. It's been proven over
64 Stirling : This is not a loaded question. I have no preconceived notion as to what the answer should be. Let's say there IS a tax cut. What is better for the eco
65 AeroWesty : Without a doubt "C", because it creates capital and an economy. Simply charging lower taxes on the top 1% doesn't create the kind of spending that go
66 DL021 : I'd call that the same principle as an infinite number of monkeys etc..... I also mentioned that the average person who "plays" the market doesn't kn
67 Post contains images Falcon84 : My "dream" Tex, isn't to tax the wealthy to death. But I don't see a reason-especially during a war, for Christ sake, to give them huge tax breaks wh
68 AndesSMF : Then lower other taxes that the middle class and poor have to pay more. You have sales taxes, gasoline taxes, fees, etc. The problem is that you thin
69 AeroWesty : In basic terms, I agree with you. I've done a test over the years, and 99% of non-professionals couldn't even tell me either how or where the stock t
70 AeroWesty : Take a look at the returns on municipal vs. commercial paper. Paper of equal risk will always be issued with a lower return on municipal. It's design
71 MaverickM11 : We all know plenty of middle class workers who don't work "their ass off everyday" so the nonsense epithet is really counterproductive and plain dumb
72 Post contains images DL021 : I actually could calculate the margin account, and I know more than I want to about shorting (helped a friend after it happened to him), but I will h
73 AeroWesty : The exact same way you explain to the working man that he has to pay taxes on his payroll check, but the profit he creates for the company's sharehol
74 Post contains images AeroWesty : Good on you, more people should know how to do it. And shorting isn't something that happens to you, it's what you do, but we'll let that one go. Yes
75 AndesSMF : It depends on who is investing. Many investors are retired people, or people like me, who have a retirement account. Remember the Calif. electricity d
76 MaverickM11 : I don't think the two are analagous at all. One is based more on policies that are outside the employee's control whereas the above can be well withi
77 Post contains images Falcon84 : That's laughable. Those kinds of taxes-sales, gas, tobacco, you REALLY think those will impact someone just getting by, over an extended period? It w
78 MaverickM11 : Yep And you've proved my point. If you can find some kind of "amount of ass worked off" versus income graph that said anything meaningful then maybe
79 DL021 : His broker friend put him in a jam, and he was seriously affected by this. Once again, I took shortcuts in the explanations to save typing but he los
80 Post contains links AeroWesty : Not unless you were a member of Congress. It was the 2003 tax act. There's a good summary of what I'm talking about here: http://www.fool.com/taxes/2
81 Post contains images 767Lover : Okay gang, let's put this in perspective: A tax cut on capital gains is a tax cut for any of us who have investment gains...not just the wealthy. How
82 AeroWesty : Ahhh, that's a horse of a completely different color. Okay, here's the basics of this. Check it out with anyone you want. It's what I used to do all
83 AndesSMF : Before you say that, find out first who pays the most in taxes percentage wise. The poor and middle class pay very little income tax, therefore there
84 AeroWesty : And would it be fair for you, if you created that in your own business, to take your income out at a lower tax rate, exempt from FICA and Medicare ta
85 MaverickM11 : Those employees can work for another company. Bill Gates can't move to another tax bracket because he doesn't like the lack of return, so to speak, i
86 AeroWesty : Sure he can. Why do you think Microsoft declared such a big dividend a year or so ago?
87 MaverickM11 : Yeah MICROSOFT did, not Bill Gates.
88 AeroWesty : It would be foolish to assume that Bill Gates, as Chairman of Microsoft, didn't have some sort of say in how he wanted to extract money from the comp
89 DL021 : My point was not that you could not make the thing (although the no risk part is something I'm not ever going to believe...there's always risk or els
90 Pope : Source? Or are you just making this up? The power to tax is the power to destroy. I don't believe that anyone is grateful to have their money taken f
91 AeroWesty : Yes, but in this derivative, the bond is always earning interest. It's a very fine line, and before someone signs up to this kind of investment, abso
92 Pope : Accepting, arguendo, that the statement is true, a "quarter of self-directed funds" probably amounts to an extremely small amount of total capital in
93 AeroWesty : All non-institutional funds are by definition self-directed, and a healthy portion of institutional funds are from sources that fall into the self-di
94 Pope : Yahaaa is hardly an effective argument. It seems that you like to make a lot of statements that you have trouble proving.
95 AeroWesty : You've been offered to bring up an alternate view, or to prove me wrong. Doesn't matter to me if you do or not. In my original statement, I was offer
96 MDorBust : Let me get this straight... Tax rates are lower, yet federal tax revenues are higher... and this is somehow bad? People are getting to keep more of th
97 AeroWesty : Uhh, the deficit? (Is this a trick question?)
98 MDorBust : Must have been a trick question, you missed the part where the govt is actually bringing in more money than it was with the higher tax rate. Want to
99 AeroWesty : No, I'm following you just fine, thanks. The whole point of this thread, some 99 posts ago, was not "raising taxes" per se, but that the tax cut bene
100 MDorBust : Nope, just fine on that point. And since the old tax code hindered one sector of the nation over the other, it's appropriate that the tax cut effecte
101 AeroWesty : There's also option 4, a wartime economy.
102 MDorBust : Disingenuous answer, and you know it. You have simply avoided haveing to define who is spending the money. Why don't you try answering now. Did the p
103 AeroWesty : Nope, can't be, because it wasn't an answer, it was offering a different option. First off, a wartime economy always does well. In the fiscal year en
104 MaverickM11 : Regardless, Bill would have to make changes to Microsoft in order to change his tax bracket. Bill, himself alone, cannot simply wake up one day and d
105 767Lover : Small business owners actually pay about double the amount of their employees, in the form of self-employment tax (on the company's tax return) becau
106 SCCutler : Westy, pray tell: what is the device by which I can "take my income out at a lower rate"? There is no exemption from payment of FICA and Medicare jus
107 767Lover : Actually it is the Compensation Committee of the company's board of directors who decides Bill Gates' pay. By charter, this means three directors tha
108 MDorBust : Are you suggesting you put forth an option that you don't support?.. and then supported it? It was your answer. If it's war spending by the governmen
109 767Lover : Then this is a really dumb thread, because a 5% tax cut on $100,000 earnings will yield more of a "windfall"--if you want to call it that--than a 5%
110 Post contains links and images AeroWesty : If you read the article I linked, I was referring to how under the new tax laws a small business owner can avoid paying employment taxes on his/her o
111 MDorBust : Yeah, that only works if you think that the re-invested saveing show up directly as tax reciepts instead of showing up manifested in multiples later
112 AeroWesty : Let me guess, you didn't read the New York Times article. It said right at the top that part of the increase was from: ... part of the jump stemmed f
113 767Lover : This is fair. Why should he pay employment taxes on dividends? He's already paying the tax on the dividend (15%) as it is. Okay-- it's the Finance Co
114 AeroWesty : What is it you don't understand about this? I have been referring to an alternate form of compensation, that under the new tax rules offers a lower t
115 767Lover : ? Why the attitude? I do know. I don't know what YOU mean. The members of the Finance Committee: David F. Marquardt General Partner, August Capital C
116 AeroWesty : Cos I'm a little tired of pot shots from people who are making claims without offering a shred of backup, and not even caring to read what I link, an
117 767Lover : When did I throw a pot shot at you that prompted your attitude? I gave my opinion on the tax issue. Is that a pot shot? I told you who was on the fin
118 Post contains images 767Lover : And why don't you just say "from you" (to me) instead of "from people" G'night, sweetie!
119 AeroWesty : Well let's see who's confused ... In the above clip, is the attempt to say that Bill Gates has no say in how dividends are distributed from the compa
120 Cairo : Sure, people in the middle would use a $1000 or $2000 tax break to buy the real consumer items that obviously drive the economy - I'm just not sure th
121 AndesSMF : Sounds like John F. Kerry to me. Then why do governments always talk about how good a stock market is doing? And if investing in stocks isnt investin
122 Gunsontheroof : Holy shit, you totally nailed it. That must be why everyone who is poor is liberal...
123 Jetjack74 : What's it to you what they spend or don't spend. I don't have any kids, but my deductions on my apartment do help me in the end. Now i'm not saying i
124 SCCutler : Yabut. Dividends are not expenses of the corporation, hence, the corporation gets taxed on the amounts paid out as dividends. So it is not as if you
125 Post contains images DL021 : No one should argue that. I think the arguments come from the right and left like this: Left: The rich should pay more and the poor should get tax di
126 AeroWesty : Again, read the article. If you have a problem with it, address the author, or provide links of your own to rebut it.
127 Cairo : Newsflash: the point of government is to keep themselves in power, they say whatever they want to make you think they're doing a good job. To the las
128 AeroWesty : This statement is a bit misleading, and here's why. The role of the investment bank/underwriter is to: 1) Strike the price and volume of the share of
129 Pope : This from the man that cites, "my experience" as the only source for his arguments. And how does the poor person consume any less of roads, airports,
130 AeroWesty : How many links have you posted vs. me? Case closed.
131 DL021 : Or you could simply look to see how many jobs, directly and indirectly, the airport will create and sustain. Everything a rich person does that excee
132 AndesSMF : I dont know what you or Falcon are smoking, but thats gotta be some strong s**t, cause saying that buying stocks doesnt help the economy is silly. Sa
133 AeroWesty : Okay, let me give you a scenario, and you tell me how this "helps the economy", a phrase tossed around here with wanton abandon. Say I own 100 shares
134 Cairo : Not at all is buying stocks similar to starting a savings account. As you say, theoretically the bank loans your savings to new businesses, car buyer
135 Post contains links AeroWesty : Wow, chill out dude. What I was pointing out is that the strike price is what the transactions go by. The way you explained it it was that the underw
136 Post contains links Cairo : Aerowesty, you're just about mostly wrong here on this detail. You're being pedantic and sound like you're reading out of a textbook. Investment banke
137 AeroWesty : You're certainly welcome to your views. From your own link: They guarantee to the company that they will purchase all of the shares the company offer
138 AndesSMF : At least he is getting his info out of someplace, unlike you. "An initial public offering (IPO) is the first sale of a corporation's common shares to
139 Post contains images AeroWesty : Excellent response. Money never really goes away, but the end result of our actions with it may not immediately and directly benefit "our economy" (w
140 Cairo : Andes and Aerowesty, I think we've hijacked this thread long enough. If you'd like to start a separate one to discuss our perceptions of IPOs and the
141 Post contains images AeroWesty : LOL, great. On one hand I've carpers saying I don't have anything to back up what I say, and on the other hand now I'm accused of documenting it too
142 Post contains images DL021 : Back to the main point of the thread. Let me actually agree that tax cuts are a boon to the wealthy....and the middle class, and the poor. Everyone be
143 Post contains images AndesSMF : You are right about the hijacked thread. I had to look up the original title to remember what the original discussion was all about. My original beef
144 Pope : How many times have I said, my position is based solely on my experience? In your typical fashion, you want to obscure the issue and make it about so
145 Post contains images AeroWesty : Pope said: "This from the man that cites, "my experience" as the only source for his arguments." Westy answers: "How many links have you posted vs. me
146 SCCutler : OK. Violating every principle by which I live, I actually read the article to which you linked. Very interesting. On balance, I still don't think it
147 Mrocktor : Every tax cut is good. Period. Taxing is theft (that is what you call it when someone takes your earned wealth away at the point of a gun). The same p
148 Pope : Again, a naked attempt to make the issue about me instead of what you've written. Let's review. Seems like you should take a nap because you're the p
149 AeroWesty : Yes, let's. On one single issue, yes, I spoke from my experience and disclosed that. You posted that I gave out my experience as my "only" source, wh
150 Pope : It's even more complicated than that. As an S-Corp owner/employee you also have an issue about paying too little compensation to yourself. Because S-
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