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France:CPE Discarded: End Of Problems?  
User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1280 times:

CPR has finally been discarded after 10 long weeks of a Social crisis in France!Jacques Chirac has announced the replacement of the CPE with a device in favour of getting disadvantaged young people into work.


http://libcom.org/news/article.php/france-cpe-law-scrapped-100406

Hope the young folks will be happy with this decision and end all the protests that have been going on !


A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1280 times:

It will not be the end of problems. If the law is struck down and the employment protection continues then expect French productivity to slip even more and unemployment to continue to rise among the younger workers.


"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8724 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1280 times:

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
Hope the young folks will be happy with this decision and end all the protests that have been going on !

The protests concerning this fraction of politics may end soon, but as long as no one fixes the real problems, people will remain angry. I'm thinking about factors creating the "no future" atmosphere in the suburbs of Paris here.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineTeva From France, joined Jan 2001, 1872 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1256 times:

Deltagator,
I do not understand how a 2 years "probation" for young employees increases productivity.
By the way, French labor productivity and quality is very high. So the problem is not here.
The problem in France is a lack of negociation. Government or companies always refuse discussion when there is something new.
they first want to "test" the strength of the people.
that's why we are unfortunately so often in the conflict mode.
the discussion they are opening today should have started before sending the law to the parliament (especially when you know there is a law in France saying that every time the government wants to change the labor law, unions and companies have to talk first, and send their conclusion to the ministers...)
Teva



Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
User currently offlineJamesag96 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2095 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1251 times:

Wait...so the government of France capitulated...again?

Well color me surprised.



Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1248 times:

Quoting Teva (Reply 3):

I do not understand how a 2 years "probation" for young employees increases productivity.

Well, I've found that the risk of not having a job is an excellent motivator to do the one you have well.

We own a subsidiary in the Netherlands, a country whose worker protection laws are pretty substantial. My impression is that they may not be as substantial as those provided in France, but honestly I have no basis for comparison. I can tell you that the laws are so restrictive to an employer that we now simply refuse to hire anyone else in the Netherlands. We outsource as much as possible, bringing even the accounting for the Dutch operations back to the US.

If these laws didn't exist, we would immediately be looking to hire 3 - 5 entry level professional jobs which would be perfect for a smart student under 26 years old.

For those in the US who don't understand how restrictive these worker protection laws are, I'll provide a real example. We fired a worker in our Dutch office because he was incompetent. Under Dutch law we had to provide notice and 2 months salary for each year's of employment. Before he left he deleted all the files on the accounting server. Fortunately, we had backups and were able to restore the files.

When we presented this to the Dutch labor court, the court ruled that the deletion of the files, which the worker admitted to in court, did not cause us any harm because we were able to restore the files, therefore, we owed him the full severance. Nice.


User currently offlineToulouse From Switzerland, joined Apr 2005, 2759 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1242 times:

I personnally I'm saddened to see bloody Chirac giving in again. I was totally in favour of the CPE, and am looking forward to seeing what's crazy ideas Chirac has up his sleeves. You know, I once defended this guy, but now I just can't wait to see the end of him as president.

Victory for the unions and the students who are more interested in waisting their time out on the streets protesting for something 99% of them probably don't understand. It was interesting throughout this thing to see the faculties the students usually seemded to be from who were out on the streets... won't say anymore as I may just get flamed.

Anyway, my French friends, I love living in France (so Vive la France!), let's get rid of Chirac, shoot Le Pen, send at least half of the remaining politicians to a deserted island, and bring some fresh progressive blood into French politics, as that's what the citizens of France deserve!



Long live Aer Lingus!
User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1240 times:

Quoting Jamesag96 (Reply 4):
Wait...so the government of France capitulated...again?

Well color me surprised.

It was surprising to wait as much as 2 hours before an ***** starts to post. [censored]

[Edited 2006-04-10 15:31:50]

User currently offlineToulouse From Switzerland, joined Apr 2005, 2759 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1239 times:

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 7):
It was surprising to wait as much as 2 hours before an idiot starts to post.

So true Sebolino, but we should know only too well by know that a.net has it's fair share of posters that post "idiotic" posts.



Long live Aer Lingus!
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1232 times:

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 7):
It was surprising to wait as much as 2 hours before an ***** starts to post.

Obviously a nerve has been touched. Perhaps the comment stings because of the truth it communicates. When is the French government going to show any backbone? They know that the contract law is the right thing to do but they refuse to do what they believe is correct.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1229 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 9):
They know that the contract law is the right thing to do but they refuse to do what they believe is correct.

If the public of France are against it, then the government taking this decision is merely reflecting public opinion. Governments do that all the time, and when they don't, people howl that they are being dictatorial and undemocratic.

We can sit on the sidelines and say they are right or wrong, but that's a different question.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1226 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):
If the public of France are against it, then the government taking this decision is merely reflecting public opinion.

Is this really the majority opinion of the people of France or is this the "heckler's veto"? [I don't know, I haven't seen any polling on the matter]

France, like the US is a republic, therefore, the notion that the direct will of the people is followed in the political process is a misunderstanding of how the system is supposed to work. The French elected their leaders and their leaders passed this legislation. If they don't like it, they should throw out the leaders but this legislation by popular referendum on the streets seems like a crazy way to run a government.


User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1223 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 9):
Obviously a nerve has been touched. Perhaps the comment stings because of the truth it communicates

Hmmm ... Something tells me you are not Danish, but from the same country as the "smart guy" I was talking about.  Smile


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1222 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 11):
Is this really the majority opinion of the people of France or is this the "heckler's veto"? [I don't know, I haven't seen any polling on the matter]

No, me neither. I was merely positing an alternate point of view. Any of our French members able to shed any light?



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineJamesAg96 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2095 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1220 times:

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 7):
Quoting Jamesag96 (Reply 4):
Wait...so the government of France capitulated...again?

Well color me surprised.

It was surprising to wait as much as 2 hours before an ***** starts to post. [censored]

Hey if the truth hurts.

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):
Quoting Pope (Reply 9):
They know that the contract law is the right thing to do but they refuse to do what they believe is correct.

If the public of France are against it, then the government taking this decision is merely reflecting public opinion. Governments do that all the time, and when they don't, people howl that they are being dictatorial and undemocratic.

I would bet that Chirac's reaction is to a very vocal minority, but a minority nonetheless.



Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17651 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1211 times:

Quoting Teva (Reply 3):
French labor productivity and quality is very high

That's because no one wants to hire a French person because it is practically a lifetime investment. If you're faced with hiring a French person, or improving productivity, through technology or automation, you'll do everything you can to foster the latter. Hiring an actual Frenchman is the absolute last resort. That's one of the main reasons why your unemployment rate and productivity are sky high.

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
End Of Problems?

HA! If only. Nothing's been fixed, not that it ever will be.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6854 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1187 times:

Quoting Jamesag96 (Reply 4):
Wait...so the government of France capitulated...again?

Well color me surprised.

What color? Like, perhaps, white? Like a white flag? LMAO!

Chirac can capitulate, but sooner or later, France is going to have to have some structural change in their economy and workforce.


User currently offlineToulouse From Switzerland, joined Apr 2005, 2759 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1185 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 16):
Chirac can capitulate, but sooner or later, France is going to have to have some structural change in their economy and workforce.

That I do agree with. Nevertheless, I am always amazed at the international coverage anything that happens in France gets... I suppose it just goes to show just how important (or highly regarded) France is, despite what Bush may want many to think...



Long live Aer Lingus!
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6854 posts, RR: 34
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1180 times:

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 17):
That I do agree with.

It also makes me wonder what, if any, leverage the EU will put on France. If the EU is in fact an arm of economic unity, then this should be an actionable event.

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 17):
Nevertheless, I am always amazed at the international coverage anything that happens in France gets... I suppose it just goes to show just how important (or highly regarded) France is, despite what Bush may want many to think...

Could be that they're also detested and that's why they get the pub? There is a strange schadenfreude about France here in the States, which may explain why the amount of coverage.


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8724 posts, RR: 43
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1163 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 18):
If the EU is in fact an arm of economic unity, then this should be an actionable event.

How so? The EU does not define all of its member countries' policies, just a select portion that was handed over to it. If the French were making this law themselves, then it certainly is not the authority of the EU.

Quoting Slider (Reply 18):
There is a strange schadenfreude about France here in the States

In parts of the US population, maybe. I haven't witnessed too many of your countrymen display this childish habit.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineToulouse From Switzerland, joined Apr 2005, 2759 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1142 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 18):
Could be that they're also detested and that's why they get the pub? There is a strange schadenfreude about France here in the States, which may explain why the amount of coverage.

Which I believe once sadly orchestrated by Bush and his supporters given France's decision not to support him on the war on Iraq. Again I think this anti-French feeling arising from this, again goes to show how important France is considered. What I mean is is that many other large countries disagreed with Bush, but who did the US supporters of Bush turn against? The French, why? Possible because they really felt let down that such an important ally (which France is and remains to be) didn't support them, thus leading to a very infantile responde.

Granted, and even the French admit it, saw it on a recent TV show, that the French are often pereceived as arrogant abroad. As a foreigner living in France, I would not actually consider "arrogance' as a word to describe the national character. And then I often wonder, all this supposed hatred abroad, yet France still firmly holds on to its position as the NUMBER 1 tourist destination in the world... Now that spring has arrived, and as I'm at Toulouse airport nearly on a daily basis, which is a relatively small airport giving the centralised structure of airports in Paris, I again notice a subtle influx of American accents around the place (yes, some business people as all year, but mainly informal looking tourists who seem to be having a great time here!).

BAck to the CPE... can any of my French friends tell me why in the name of God are people still out demonstarting this morning when they've won! The strikes/demonstartions programmed for today by the anti-CPE (loosers, sorry that's all I can call them) are out again protesting as planned this morning. Just shows how bloody ignorant and thick this "loud" minority of students and unionists are!



Long live Aer Lingus!
User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1140 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
That's because no one wants to hire a French person because it is practically a lifetime investment.

LOL

How accurate !

So you're implying that the unemployement rate is about 100 % ??

[Edited 2006-04-11 11:21:49]

User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1128 times:

Guess what ! The students have promised that they will keep protesting and keeping pressure! Now I really wonder if messing around isn't their main goal...they seem happy with nothing


A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1127 times:

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 20):
What I mean is is that many other large countries disagreed with Bush, but who did the US supporters of Bush turn against? The French, why?

Permanent seat at the Security Council.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8724 posts, RR: 43
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1121 times:

Quoting Banco (Reply 23):
Permanent seat at the Security Council.

China? Russia? I can't seem to remember they were all that much in favour of the invasion.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
25 Banco : True, but they aren't US allies.
26 Aloges : The Bush administration has a pretty poor track record of caring about its allies. They willfully endangered NATO for the sake of a phoney, illegal w
27 Banco : That's not the point, whether right or wrong. The post was about why France would have copped the abuse rather than anyone else. The likes of China an
28 DeltaGator : Sorry for the delay in getting back to you Teva but Pope summed it up nicely in my absence. The problem as I see it is that the French employment law
29 MaverickM11 : If companies could get away with not hiring within France, the unemployment rate would certainly head that way.
30 Toulouse : I do understand your post and mostly agree with you. But it is so sad to see such ignorant stereotypes around (as you've stated above, isn't it?). Oh
31 DL021 : This capitulation to a small segment of underemployed society is stupid and the government should be voted out of office. It certainly increases effi
32 DeltaGator : Do remember there is an ounce of truth in every stereotype. Not to say they are always correct but they do arise out of something that is true. I do
33 MaverickM11 : Nope, nope, and nope. I'm SAYING, not implying, that given a choice between a French employee subject to French labor rules, and someone that is not
34 DL021 : The problem is not necessarily the investment, which is worthwhile for good employees, but the fact that this often becomes a bad expense which you a
35 Toulouse : I suppose there may be some truth in steretotypes. Fair post DeltaGator! Now I have you a bit clearer MaverickM11, I do agree with you (to a certain
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