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Positive Proof: Palestine Is Now A Terrorist State  
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1911 times:

Following the bombing in Tel Aviv, which once again targetted civilians at random with no intention of targeting a military or otherwise justifiable target, specifically with the intent of causing as much carnage among innocents as possible, the Palestinian government has condoned the attack by calling it "justified" and refusing to denounce it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060417/ts_nm/mideast_dc_7

As many people on this board may know, I have been a supporter of Palestine existing independently behind 1967 borders without any Israeli settlements. But this now proves that the government of Palestine has now fallen into the hands of absolute fanatics who have no intention of seeking peace with their larger neighbor.

If I were Israel, I would make the following ultimatum.

1) The Palestinian Authority is now on probation (double-secret probation, if you will).

2) They have 3 months to anounce that they recognize Israel and its right to exist, and their commitment to find a two-state solution via negotiations.

3) During those three months, if there are any more terrorist bombings on Israelis, Israel will be expecting to see severe arrests and punishment on the responsible groups. If such action is not visible, Israel will consider the Palestinian Authority as directly responsible.

4) If conditions 2) and 3) above are not both satisfied within 3 months, Israel will invade and occupy all PA territory, will disband the PA government, and place former PA territory under military governorship under martial law.

5) Israel commits that, if an invasion is made, there will be no further settlements by Israel, and the primary purpose of the occupation would be to put in place new elections for a PA within 2 months. Be aware though, if the Palestinians elect again a party which does not include recognition of Israel and renouncement of terrorism as a justifiable tactic, the occupation force will stay, the government will not be allowed to form, and new elections will be called again.

6) If the Palestinians elect a government which will recognize Israel and renounce terrorism, the Israeli Army commits to aid, if required, in the formation of the government, and shall leave PA territory as soon as the restored PA government requests.

The theme song of the operation: Bob Dylan's "The Times They Are A-Changin'"

Enough is enough. The Palestinians need to realize that they will be held accountable for their stupid choices. If necessary, a few months of martial law should make the message clear: 1) Israel will exist within 1967 borders. Deal with it; and 2) Any other concessions, such as settlements, the Wall, economic assistance, shall depend entirely upon the behaviour of the PA, particularly its government.

Of course, the big question will be the reaction of Iran and the Arab states. They will clearly be pissed, but will be unlikely to actively interfere if Israel makes an official commitment that 1) the occupation will be short and will not seek to increase settlements, and 2) that Israel is absolutely commited to the operation if the conditions are not met, and conversely that they will stand down if Hamas changes its tune.

The US would have to stay out of it, but can back up Israel morally, as the PA-Israel situation is exactly the same as the situation with Afghanistan after 9/11 - a state that has decided that it will aid and encourage terrorism.

{Flamesuit on}

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4266 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1896 times:

Do not have a problem with the majority of what you have said. While the majority of us have held out hope for a relatively peaceful resolution for many years, it appears that any such solution is impossible with the current government the Palestinians have in place. Still hope for a Palestinian state and that Israel can avoid any major conflict, but it may be unavoidable.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4277 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1885 times:

The problem with #5 is that it just doesn't work that way. If Israel were to call for new 'elections', you can be assured that the most anti-Israeli party would win, because the Palestinians would in masse have a protest vote.

Israel, or any country, can't ever expect to disband a democratically elected government (which Hamas was whatever else they may be), and then expect the people to vote in a government friendly to such action. It's just human nature to do the exact opposite.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1874 times:

It's not a state at all.

User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1863 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
The problem with #5 is that it just doesn't work that way. If Israel were to call for new 'elections', you can be assured that the most anti-Israeli party would win, because the Palestinians would in masse have a protest vote.

Then the occupation and martial law will remain.

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
It's just human nature to do the exact opposite.

I know that. But at some point, you just have to lay down the law. After 50 years of violence, I think that time has come. Just like when you have a rotten kid which which "time-outs" have not done the job, the next step is going to be stricter and hard.

The Palestinians need to realize that THEY are the ones in control of the situation. They are not the victims anymore - they are the petulant children who refuse all efforts at discipline or education. All they have to do is recognize Israel and renounce terrorism, and Israel will talk to them, and most of the world will pressure Israel to make concessions if they are reasonable (such as dismantling settlements or moving back the wall).


User currently offlineIbhayi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1820 times:

Why do they cry so bitterly?

Can't a few Jews have a little patch of the earth to call home? Yet the Muslim's have Iran, Iraq Saudi and Indonesia etc.


User currently offlineN229NW From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1916 posts, RR: 32
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1773 times:

Hmmm. The problem with this kind of ultimatum is that it is always one-sided. You seem to assume that Israel is willing to exist in 1967 borders, which of course many Israeils are (just as many Palestinians are willing to exist side by side with Israel now). But for a long time the Israeli elections have continuously selected parties that oppose a rollback to those borders.

If a just two-state solution were to be imposed by force, it would also have to include the following types of requirements: A massive UN peacekeeping force takes over Israel, disbanding the government and the IDF until the Israeli people agree to hold new elections and select a government that will stop violating UN resolutions, drop or at least reroute the "security wall," remove ALL settlements outside the 1967 borders, and divide Jerusalem.

Of course that could never happen in a million years...Israel is too strong and has too much US support for that to happen. But you see the problem with treating people like 3-year-olds. They don't react well to being condescended to, especially when it is only one side that is treated in this patronizing way.

At the bottom line is this: collective punishment does not work. It makes things worse. Torturing, starving, or bulldozing the houses of families and neighbors of a bomber makes more bombers not fewer, and is contrary to every notion of justice the "anti-terrorist" West claims to be standing on.

Hamas is a terrorist organization that should never have been elected. The Center and Right Israeli parties should also never have been elected, when they have so little regard for justice and human life.

It makes me really angry to read about another idiot blowing himself up.
But it also makes me really angry to read about Israel closing off the West Bank and basically trying to starve Palestinian civilians into getting rid of Hamas... http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1754910,00.html

I don't know what will break this cycle of reaction, but it is going to involve some thinking outside the box. Your plan is packed tightly into that box...



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineBofredrik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1770 times:

It is terrible how Israel treats Palestinians. Israel is the bad guy here and is it strange how so many here can stay behind the awful state...  banghead 

User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1758 times:

Israel is the terrorist state, the only state EVER to have militance rate of 100% and the only to have elected a war crimes criminal and then that man to have been called "man of peace".

Quoting Ibhayi (Reply 5):
Can't a few Jews have a little patch of the earth to call home?

Yes but I would refuse to "donate" my home to them. So would you, so did the Palestinians so they were thrown out by force.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1758 times:
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Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 7):
It is terrible how Israel treats Palestinians. Israel is the bad guy here and is it strange how so many here can stay behind the awful state...

I'd ask the average poster if they were being ironic, but I don't think you are. Am I incorrect? If so I apologize, but if I'm correct then I think you should move to Palestine.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineIbhayi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1750 times:

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8):
Yes but I would refuse to "donate" my home to them. So would you, so did the Palestinians so they were thrown out by force.

I have no qualms with giving them a bit of dessert down here, they can invade all they want around the dessert.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1742 times:

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8):
Israel is the terrorist state, the only state EVER to have militance rate of 100% ....

Nations with mandatory military service:

Austria
Belarus
Bermuda
Brazil
Bulgaria
Chile
China (PRC)
Croatia
Cyprus
Denmark
Egypt
Eritrea
Finland
Germany
Greece
Iran
Israel
Korea, South
Lebanon
Malaysia
Mexico
Norway
Poland
Romania
Russia
Serbia and Montenegro
Singapore
Sweden
Switzerland
Taiwan (ROC)
Turkey
Ukraine
Venezuela


User currently offlineBofredrik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1742 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):

Israel means nothing to me.
Nothing at all.


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2325 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1720 times:

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8):
Yes but I would refuse to "donate" my home to them. So would you, so did the Palestinians so they were thrown out by force.

Excuse me but the way you repeatedly refer to Israel's past, is not only wrong but in my view one of the reasons why this conflict doesn't end.
Just what historical events are you refering to?

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 7):
It is terrible how Israel treats Palestinians. Israel is the bad guy here and is it strange how so many here can stay behind the awful state

So you've found your simple Scandinavian truth, now leave us alone with ours.

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2316 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1720 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 11):
Nations with mandatory military service

Well it is not directly mandatory in Denmark. You have to take a number like in a lottery and if you get a number below a certain level, you have to join the army for atleast 4 months now which isn't actually very bad. I got a number above that level which means that I don't have to join the army.


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2325 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1703 times:

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8):
Israel is the terrorist state, the only state EVER to have militance rate of 100% and the only to have elected a war crimes criminal and then that man to have been called "man of peace".

You are from Pakistan, your whole country is supporting Kashmir rebels and are at an almost constant nuclear stand off with India, your PM is a military leader, how should I view you and your country then?

Oh and about Sharon:

http://www.caabu.org/press/documents/kahan-commission-part9.html

Do some research and understand history, instead of listening too much to your anti Zionist sources, who ever they might be.
The strongest possible word you will find in the above linked article is "blunder"...

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineMKEdude From South Korea, joined May 2005, 1010 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1699 times:

Re-occuping the territories would be a huge step back. It would simultaniously enrage the Muslim world,(a difficult task indeed) and not accomplish a damn thing. Sharon's policy of unilateral withdrawl is the only viable solution. And if they need to build a great big bloody wall to pull it off so be it!

The Palestinians will not magically disappear, and the Israelis are not going to be driven into the sea. There are going to be two states, no way around it. The only question is how many more people will die before this happens.



"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
User currently offlineSoylentgreen From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 243 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1685 times:

I sometimes wonder what we Americans would think if somehow 3 million Native Americans took over the United States, and relegated us to refugee status, and had us walk through check points each day. Would we stand for it? Could we stand for it? Good grief Israel, just give the Palestinians some land to call their own, and the whole world will be safer, especially that of your citizenry. Sometimes, you have to give a little to gain a lot.

It was the British Colony's land, it is Israel's land, it was the Palestinian's land, it was Egypt's land, it was the Babylonians' land, it was the Phoenicians' land, it was Astrolopiothicus man's land, it was Neanderthal man's land....can't we all recognize each other, respect history, and learn to co-exist?


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2325 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1681 times:

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 19):

So you think this is all about Israel not wanting to give up land?

Secondly:

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 19):
I sometimes wonder what we Americans would think if somehow 3 million Native Americans took over the United States, and relegated us to refugee status, and had us walk through check points each day.

Now if the above was the history of Israel in brief, you have some reading to do.

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1671 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
It's just human nature to do the exact opposite.

No, its children's nature to do that. When (and if) you grow up, that stops.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8):
Yes but I would refuse to "donate" my home to them. So would you, so did the Palestinians so they were thrown out by force.

Not all Palestinians were thrown out by force, they were asked to 'relocate' by Arab governments until they defeated the Jewish army (1948). I would further agree with you if the Arab governments that expelled 600,000 jews in 1948 also give them right of return.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 6):
But it also makes me really angry to read about Israel closing off the West Bank and basically trying to starve Palestinian civilians into getting rid of Hamas..

They are closing off their border with the Gaza Strip, not the sea routes or their border with Egypt. Where is that support from Arab states then?


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1671 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 11):

Those countries either don't require military service for women or offer a civil service alternative.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2316 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1671 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):

Those countries either don't require military service for women or offer a civil service alternative.

exactly what I was trying to say.. thanks for summing it up!  Smile


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2325 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1658 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):



Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 23):

I read MDorBusts post as him trying to address Bravo45s insinuations, about Israel somehow is a dangerous terrorist state, because of its military drafting policies.

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1658 times:
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Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 19):
Good grief Israel, just give the Palestinians some land to call their own,

They did. The Palestineans will settle for no less than the destruction if Israel. They voted for Hamas who won't back off the rhetoric or the support for suicide/homicide bombers.

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 14):
Israel means nothing to me.
Nothing at all.

Well, then you're a supporter of murderers and terrorists with absolutely no grasp on reality. Pretty easy to be that when you're safe in some country that no one has bothered to invade in two centuries.
Israel means something to you otherwise you would not have posted.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
Quoting MDorBust (Reply 11):


Those countries either don't require military service for women or offer a civil service alternative.

Yeah, well have they been invaded 5 times in the last 60 years? Have they been forced to deal with terrorists non-stop for the entire time? There's a survival factor working there.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1534 times:

I am just wondering where in the 5 Pillars of Islam does it call for the destruction of Israel? If you're unfamiliar with them here is a quick refresher, they are FAITH, PRAYER, CHARITY, FASTING, and PILGRIMAGE. (Abbreviated Definitions)


Delete this User
25 Windshear : Indeed this is what the Qur'an says about Israel: 2:47 Children of Israel! call to mind the favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred yo
26 Post contains images Superfly : Hmmm, afters years of making less than positive comments about Israel, suddenly Cfalk is pro-Israel. Just as he is gearing up for a big move here to t
27 Cairo : Cfalk, I for one would support most of your ideas, except that the US has to be completely out of the picture. No support. No guarantees. OMG, you're
28 AndesSMF : Ditto for the Arab side.
29 Windshear : Just because you are reading non- US media, does not guarantee you that it will be un biased, I am from Europe and I have seen my fair share of left
30 Post contains links and images ANCFlyer : Sounds like a pretty peaceful bunch to me http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/04/17/telaviv.blast/index.html
31 Cfalk : That's a cheap excuse after the fact. Palestinian terrorists (and Muslim terrorists in general) have never restricted themselves to non-military targ
32 Aerorobnz : I'm sick and tired of the media attention this shit gets, turn the cameras off and quit giving both sides the chance to be attention whores with these
33 N1120A : I wasn't commenting one way or another on this thread, only about MDorBust's baddly laid out rebuttel to the issue of conscription. If you want to ta
34 MD11Engineer : So you can only come up with stuff that happened at least 30 years ago? Let's see, while the Stern gang was clearly terrorist, this happened in the l
35 Soylentgreen : Yes, this is in large part, what would greatly reduce tensions and fighting, and perhaps set the foundation for peace. It's worth a try at this point
36 Post contains links Emirates773ER : I did not want to make this thread divert into a religious war but just for your reference I would like to post the following links. http://www.islam
37 Texan : First off, I agree that Israel has acted in a very militaristic, undiplomatic, and frequently excessively violent manner. However, the difference her
38 Post contains links Windshear : Read about the investigation would you? http://www.caabu.org/press/documents/kahan-commission-part9.html Sharon did not support nor did he condone th
39 N1120A : Does that make it any less of a terrorist attack? Nice way to make light of the struggles of millions You have got to be kidding me Including former
40 Post contains images Windshear : I agree the chosen word you used back then was evenly dramatic, but I chose to use it, just for old times sake So? I still do not think that they wer
41 N1120A : I don't think anyone will ever know something official, but I think the three word phrase "to strike terror" works
42 Cfalk : But you have to admit, he has a point. Should the US, Britain, France, Russia, China, Japan, Germany, all be at war today for all the killing that we
43 Windshear : Listen... You have used this civilian aircraft story before, and still you have no detail or anything, you just keep mentioning it. I want to remind
44 MD11Engineer : My father's family came originaslly from East Prussia and they lost their land as a result of WW2. Do I go and bomb Polish and Russian civilians over
45 Post contains links FOMEA : Agreed. Ironically, Today is Qana massacre 10th Anniversary. http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/30/lebanon.funerals/index.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wik
46 AndesSMF : With a bunch of people inside? But your reference refers to the fact that Israel apologized for the error of targeting civilians. The Palestinians wo
47 Raffik : It was an awful and vicious attack on civillian Israeli life- I am sure Fomea is not condoning it. He is merely implying that indescriminate killing
48 Raffik : Because the aircraft were devoid of passengers justifies the bombing of 14 civillian aircraft?? Had they been fighter jets, or military transporters,
49 Boeing Nut : I started reading this thread with an interest in the topic. I now have a feeling of hopelessness and an empty heart, for the lack of better words. Th
50 MD11Engineer : Then the Lebanese government should hve controlled the Palaestinian militias. If you protect a combatant group in your country, this automatically ma
51 AndesSMF : My point was not whether Israel was justified in its actions, it was that Israel did not have the purpose of killing civilians with their actions. Co
52 Stirling : Bravo. Terrorism has grown in scope over the years in no smart part due to the results of their deeds being broadcast over and over on the nightly ne
53 Raffik : The country was in the middle of a devastating civil war. There was no legal system. There was little control over the country or it's inhabitants. Y
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