Sjc>sfo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (13 years 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1276 times:
Taliban Supreme Leader Mullah Omar:
"The situation where we are now, there are two things, either death or victory. To those who are fighting and bombarding us, they should understand the Afghan man is a fighter willing to die for jihad."
General George S. Patton:
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
N17085 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (13 years 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1262 times:
I would like to see an old Sherman tank go out into the cave infested, no good countryside of Afghanistan and run over Bin Laden. Then it would back over him again and again and it would be like on the video games when you would hear the bones crunching. That's what I want to see.
Cfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (13 years 9 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1235 times:
Patton knew what war was about. He also butted heads with politicians getting invoved with Military operations (Patton kept getting told to do stupid things in order to be politically correct).
What I am afraid of here is the following. As far as I can tell, there has been no clear, specific military objective defined for this campaign. In WWII, the objective was "unconditional surrender". Whenever the military is sent somewhere, they should be given a specific mission, and be allowed to do whatever it takes to achieve it. "Do this, how you do it is up to you." The danger is when objectives change with the whim of politicians, who also have a say in what military options may or may not be taken. This is what happened in Vietnam and other places.
But I cringe whenever a sitting U.S. president, during a campaign that has been maybe going on for months, says "This morning I ordered...", or "This evening I authorized..." when talking about some strike or attack. He should have nothing to do with it.
God bless those on the front lines, because they are the ones who will have to pay if the politicians are foolish.
SJC>SFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (13 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1194 times:
Yes Patton was a Military genius. Some of his ideas were somewhat extreme though. His thinking after World War II was that we already had thousands and thousands of troops in Europe, just attack Russia now. Fortunetly (well thats arguable) we had some less anxious people on the Hill.
Its too bad we don't have him around today. I garuntee you he would have this wrapped up in no time.
Milldoh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (13 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1179 times:
I hate to burst your bubble on this one, but the original quote:
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country"
actually came from the film "Patton," where George C. Scott talks to the audience at the beginning of the film. Francis Ford Coppola wrote it - Patton never said it though it is commonly attributed to him.
I still like the quote, though! And it's a great movie!
Milldoh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (13 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1150 times:
Well, I'd rather not argue about this, but that quote was never part of his speech. The real speech and movie speech were similar, but that line was not part of his real speech.
Here's what was in the movie:
Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. Men, all this stuff you've heard about America not wanting to fight - wanting to stay out of the war, is a lot of horse dung. Americans traditionally love to fight. All real Americans love the sting of battle.
When you were kids, you all admired the champion marble shooter, the fastest runner, big league ball players, the toughest boxers. Americans love a winner and will not tolerate a loser. Americans play to win all the time. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost and never will lose a war, because the very thought of losing is hateful to Americans.
Now, an army is a team - it lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of crap... Now, we have the finest food and equipment, the best spirit, and the best men in the world. You know, by god, I actually pity those poor bastards we're goin' up against. By god, I do. We're not just gonna shoot the bastard, we're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel.
Now, some of you boys, I know, are wondering whether or not you'll chicken out under fire. Don't worry about it. I can assure you that you will all do your duty. The Nazis are the enemy. Wade into them, spill their blood, shoot them in the belly. When you put your hand into a bunch of goo that a moment before was your best friend's face, you'll know what to do. Now there's another thing I want you to remember. I don't want to get any messages saying that we are holding our position. We're not holding anything. Let the Hun do that. We are advancing constantly and we're not interested in holding onto anything except the enemy. We're going to hold onto him by the nose and we're gonna kick him in the ass. We're going to kick the hell out of him all the time and we're gonna go through him like crap through a goose.
Now, there's one thing that you men will be able to say when you get back home, and you may thank god for it. Thirty years from now when you're sitting around your fireside with your grandson on your knee, and he asks you: 'What did you do in the Great World War II?', you won't have to say: 'Well, I shoveled s--t in Louisiana.' All right, now you sons-of-bitches, you know how I feel and I will be proud to lead you wonderful guys into battle anytime, anywhere. That's all.
And here's Patton's speech on May 17, 1944 (the one you were referring to) before the invasion of Normandy:
Men, this stuff some sources sling around about America wanting to stay out of the war and not wanting to fight is a lot of baloney! Americans love to fight, traditionally. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle. America loves a winner. America will not tolerate a loser. Americans despise a coward; Americans play to win. That's why America has never lost and never will lose a war.
You are not all going to die. Only two percent of you, right here today, would be killed in a major battle.
Death must not be feared. Death, in time, comes to all of us. And every man is scared in his first action. If he says he's not, he's a goddamn liar. Some men are cowards, yes, but they fight just the same, or get the hell slammed out of them.
The real hero is the man who fights even though he's scared. Some get over their fright in a minute, under fire; others take an hour; for some it takes days; but a real man will never let the fear of death overpower his honor, his sense of duty, to his country and to his manhood.
All through your Army careers, you've been bitching about what you call "chicken-shit drills." That, like everything else in the Army, has a definite purpose. That purpose is instant obedience to orders and to create and maintain constant alertness! This must be bred into every soldier. A man must be alert all the time if he expects to stay alive. If not, some German son-of-a-bitch will sneak up behind him with a sock full of shit! There are four hundred neatly marked graves somewhere in Sicily, all because one man went to sleep on his job--but they are German graves, because we caught the bastards asleep!
An Army is a team, lives, sleeps, fights, and eats as a team. This individual hero stuff is a lot of horse shit! The bilious bastards who write that kind of stuff for the Saturday Evening Post don't know any more about real fighting under fire than they know about fucking! Every single man in the Army plays a vital role. Every man has his job to do and must do it. What if every truck driver decided that he didn't like the whine of a shell overhead, turned yellow and jumped headlong into a ditch? What if every man thought, "They won't miss me, just one in millions?" Where in Hell would we be now? Where would our country, our loved ones, our homes, even the world, be?
No, thank God, Americans don't think like that. Every man does his job, serves the whole. Ordnance men supply and maintain the guns and vast machinery of this war, to keep us rolling. Quartermasters bring up clothes and food, for where we're going, there isn't a hell of a lot to steal. Every last man on K.P. has a job to do, even the guy who boils the water to keep us from getting the G.I. shits!
Remember, men, you don't know I'm here. No mention of that is to be made in any letters. The USA is supposed to be wondering what the hell has happened to me. I'm not supposed to be commanding this Army, I'm not supposed even to be in England. Let the first bastards to find out be the goddamn Germans. I want them to look up and howl, "Ach, it's the goddamn Third Army and that son-of-a-bitch Patton again!"
We want to get this thing over and get the hell out of here, and get at those purple-pissin' Japs!!! The shortest road home is through Berlin and Tokyo! We'll win this war, but we'll win it only by showing the enemy we have more guts than they have or ever will have!
There's one great thing you men can say when it's all over and you're home once more. You can thank God that twenty years from now, when you're sitting around the fireside with your grandson on your knee and he asks you what you did in the war, you won't have to shift him to the other knee, cough, and say, "I shoveled shit in Louisiana."