DL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11346 posts, RR: 89 Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 906 times:
You're right. We should all start bicycling or walking to work and the grocery store. We need to modify our vehicles to run on sugar or ethanol (it works in Brazil) and we really need to increase nuclear production.
Then, while the price of fuel won't drop much, it sure will be nice to avoid having to listen to people bitch about the oil companies and the importation of oil.
FSPilot747 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 3599 posts, RR: 17 Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 862 times:
Quoting DL021 (Reply 1): You're right. We should all start bicycling or walking to work and the grocery store. We need to modify our vehicles to run on sugar or ethanol (it works in Brazil) and we really need to increase nuclear production.
Then, while the price of fuel won't drop much, it sure will be nice to avoid having to listen to people bitch about the oil companies and the importation of oil.
No. But if demand falls for gas as it would if single guys and everyone else stopped buying gas guzzlers, then prices would, too.
And what's wrong with biking once in a while? Most Americans can use the exercise. We have become a country of lazy fatasses that are wasteful in every single way and drive bigass trucks and SUVs to show off our big balls.
NeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 848 times:
Quoting FSPilot747 (Reply 2): No. But if demand falls for gas as it would if single guys and everyone else stopped buying gas guzzlers, then prices would, too.
But what if the single guys like the big SUV's? I know my family likes the SUV/Trucks, so I propose an idea, anyone that owns a big SUV can't bitch about the fuel prices unless they actually need it for work. That way, people who want them can have them and we solve some of the problem.
A332 From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 831 times:
I own an SUV, but I don't drive it all the time either...
You can't pull a 19 foot travel trailer with a Honda... so yeah, my SUV does serve a purpose. When it comes to being economical, I keep it in the garage... which is why I have a smaller car for daily driving and only utilize the Yukon when it is truly needed.
However, I still do not agree with the high prices of fuel when the oil companies are rakin' it in like they are... I'm obviously still unconvinced!
25% of cars are being sold with 8-cylinder engines.
40% with 6-cylinders.
People complain about $3/gallon gas but they refuse to change their lifestyle. Add to that the NIMBY’s that refuse to allow oil exploration in the Gulf or ANWR or the building of new refineries and it’s no wonder why gas is high and headed higher.
ANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 803 times:
You want cheaper fuel? Simple, just ask George to make a couple of statements:
1. Gee Iran, why don't we sit down and talk this over - like adults?
2. Gee Iraq, I see you point of view now. Shall we discuss a date when we can send our troops home?
I bet we would see a 20% drop overnight ... Oh, but wouldn't that hurt some Texan friends.
SATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 9 Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 801 times:
Quoting Pope (Reply 5): Add to that the NIMBY’s that refuse to allow oil exploration in the Gulf or ANWR or the building of new refineries and it’s no wonder why gas is high and headed higher.
The oil companies have known for a long time that residents were going to do whatever they could to try and block new and larger installations even as they were busy closing down hundreds of older ones over the last few decades. Despite your comments, NIMBY's didn't arrive yesterday; they've been here as long as I can remember. As the recipients of massive cash flow increases, it's puzzling that you don't consider the previous actions of the oil companies to be a large part of the equation.
Environmentalists have been fighting new nuclear installations for decades and all it took was one signature from the world's most famous buffoon to undo all their best efforts. Keep that in mind the next time you feel like blaming movements you apparently don't understand.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 12325 posts, RR: 31 Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 793 times:
Quoting Max999 (Thread starter): High gas prices aren't high enough to force SUV drivers to make a switch.
Here in Ahwatukee, AZ....I have counted at least 11 SUV's for sale on the side of the road (grocery store parking lots actually) so far, yesterday! People ARE catching on here.
Quoting Pope (Reply 5): People complain about $3/gallon gas but they refuse to change their lifestyle.
Same thing with high paid pilots on the 121 industry!!! They cant change their lifestyle!
Quoting ANother (Reply 6): Simple, just ask George to make a couple of statements:
1. Gee Iran, why don't we sit down and talk this over - like adults?
2. Gee Iraq, I see you point of view now. Shall we discuss a date when we can send our troops home?
Never gonna happen. Bush is an oil tycoon in Texas, the last time I checked! He has dollar signs in his eyes. Hes not gonna do squat!!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
Pope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 786 times:
Quoting SATX (Reply 7): Keep that in mind the next time you feel like blaming movements you apparently don't understand.
Given that I work in the petrochemical industry, I'd bet that I have a much better understanding of the issues involved than you.
Fact - no new refineries have been built in the US in 30 years. Last one in 1979.
Fact - on an average day US refinery capacity utilization averages between 85% and 90%. This is when everything is running as planned, outages are scheduled and the supply infrastructure is running as it's supposed to. In the summer, this figure regularly jumps past 95% when everything is running smoothly.
Fact - Over the last quarter-century, the number of refineries in the United States dropped to 149, less than half the number in 1981. Because companies have upgraded and expanded their aging operations, refining capacity during that time period shrank only 10 percent from its peak of 18.6 million barrels a day. At the same time, gasoline consumption has risen by 45 percent.
Conclusion - More refining capacity will almost certainly be needed. Gasoline demand is forecast to rise 39 percent by 2025, to 12.9 million barrels a day, up from today's 9.3 million barrels, according to a long-term outlook by the Energy Information Administration. By then, gasoline alone will account for nearly half the crude oil consumed in the United States. By contrast, domestic refining capacity is expected to grow only by 0.8 percent from 2005 to 2007, slightly less than the 0.9 percent increase registered between 1998 and 2004.
If people aren't going to drive smaller cars, if new refining capacity isn't going to be built and if new sources of crude aren't going to be tapped, $70/barrel is going to be on the low end of crude pricing for the future.
I didn't say that NIMBY's arrived yesterday as you say. But the system has reached it's breaking point. Therefore we can either change our lifestyle, increase capacity or deal with higher prices.
After last year's storms I said that what had to be done was to make the location of oil infrastructure exclusively the domain of the federal government. The concentration of refinery capacity along the US gulf coast leaves us far too exposed to natural disasters like hurricanes and geographical attacks from enemies. We literally have just a couple of choke points that when squeezed can paralize our country.
Local politics are never going to allow new refineries to be built (anywhere). No politician is ever going to get elected saying, let me build a refinery in your back yard. But that's exactly what is needed. Not only refineries but we need new LNG terminals and new distribution pipelines that don't follow the exact path of existing ones.
JBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4381 posts, RR: 23 Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 783 times:
Quoting FSPilot747 (Reply 2): in every single way and drive bigass trucks and SUVs to show off our big balls.
A319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 778 times:
I remember when the Ford Focus was launched in the US - the smallest engine size you could get was a 2.0L engine. What's wrong with the 1.4L or 1.6L? Granted, it won't tow a trailer, but it'll go the speed limit just fine.
It's the car companies that aren't helping much now either. But they seem to be waking up now the market is being shaken up by the more economical imports from Japan etc.
Quoting Pope (Reply 9): But the system has reached it's breaking point. Therefore we can either change our lifestyle, increase capacity or deal with higher prices.
The funny thing is, I think all three need to happen.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
Pope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 768 times:
Quoting Searpqx (Reply 12): The funny thing is, I think all three need to happen.
Agreed. There is no magic bullet. There are no easy answers to this problem - and most of the alternatives have big drawbacks so we're looking at picking between the lesser of the evils in most circumstances.
Take the hybrid electric cars for example - the batteries in them have a very polluting manufacturing process and their useful life is sort of limited and create a problem on their disposal.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 13970 posts, RR: 51 Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 738 times:
Quoting A319XFW (Reply 11): It's the car companies that aren't helping much now either.
Quoting SATX (Reply 14): The oil companies didn't just find out about this out yesterday.
Why is this the companies' fault? If consumers wouldn't buy gas guzzlers, companies wouldn't make them.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 13970 posts, RR: 51 Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 729 times:
Quoting Pope (Reply 5): People complain about $3/gallon gas but they refuse to change their lifestyle.
It's the human way: we want change but not if we have to make any changes ourselves or god forbid sacrifice anything. The only way you'll get Americans to change their ways is through a carrot and stick approach, and $3/gallon gas is a pretty big stick, and it'll have a much stronger effect on efficiency and oil consumption than any attempt of any member of the government to "fix" (read f#$k sh!t up) the oil situation.
11Bravo From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 1644 posts, RR: 13 Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 723 times:
I would like to see some sort of incentive program with gasoline tax:
If your non-commercial vehicle is in the 10th percentile or less of MPG values, you pay 400% of the nominal gasoline tax.
If your non-commercial vehicle is between the 10th percentile and the 30th percentile of MPG values, you pay 200% of the nominal gasoline tax.
If your non-commercial vehicle is in the 80th percentile or higher of MPG values, you pay zero gasoline tax.
SATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 9 Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 714 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
Why is this the companies' fault? If consumers wouldn't buy gas guzzlers, companies wouldn't make them.
It's true that I'm saying the oil companies knew about and did not prevent this situation. I'm also saying that they may have slowly orchestrated the event with the hope that it could eventually pay off in the long term and grant them higher profits and fewer pro-environmental restrictions (so far so good). It was most likely a calculated gamble just like any other business might make. Now, whether you feel that today's gas prices are the oil companies "fault" as a result of their actions is certainly a matter of interpretation.
I personally feel that it's the unchecked conspicuous consumption America has long been known for that is the primary culprit. The price of gasoline in America has been artificially low in my view and is only now beginning to reach fair-value in the shadow of ever increasing demand on the world stage. If you're going to blame anyone, blame the people who actually have some control over the price of oil. However, if you start blaming the lowest people on the totem poll (NIMBY's and environmentalists) I feel it's my responsibility to ask how they can honestly still be considered to a serious threat in lieu of everything else that's going on.
The views and aspirations of NIMBY's have long been a known equation to many American industries and they make an easy scapegoat when an industrial company closes one resource and then gets the predictable backlash if they try to open or expand another one. Based on a slew of recent roll-backs of pro-environmental legislation and a conspicuous lack of enforcement of those rules still on the books, it is my honest contention that NIMBY's and environmentalists have less influence now than at any time since the 1970's. If ignoring the environment is the will of a greedy and arrogant electorate, so be it, but don't go blaming the folks who have been pushed aside by those with the real power.
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
SATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 9 Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 710 times:
It's only a splinter in the finger for middle and upper-class Texans. They love to bitch about it, but I've yet to see anyone start carpooling or getting rid of their truck or SUV. It would take years of $5-9 per US gallon to get Texans out of their trucks and SUV's. Maybe the rest of America is significantly more open to trying other vehicles?
Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
PSA727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 959 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 662 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15): Why is this the companies' fault? If consumers wouldn't buy gas guzzlers, companies wouldn't make them.
Someone needs to pass that info onto the bitch I saw on the road
today in her SUV with the bumper-sticker that read:
"I'd rather be fighting Global Warming."
Unfortunately, I could not find my sign that read:
"If it wasn't for a**holes like you wasting gas on urban roads, we
wouldn't be so concerned about what the f**k is going on in the
Middle East."
Dc863 From Denmark, joined Jun 1999, 1547 posts, RR: 3 Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 643 times:
Quoting ANother (Reply 6): Gee Iran, why don't we sit down and talk this over - like adults?
You're joking right? We should sit down with a fascist and have a grand ol' time while we eat cookies and sip tea. Iran's leaders have been digging their own grave since 1979. There's nothing to discuss. Besides Iran gets 40% of it's oil imported since they don't have the ability to properly refine the product themselves.
You're an adult. When you have a major problem with someone, I'm willing to bet that you are going to discuss said problem with said person. It may or may not work, but it's worth trying. If you and them can do it, theres no reason why your leader and their leader can't do it too.
If I came down and killed your neighbor I'm pretty sure you would think there is something wrong with that, and if there is then there is also something wrong with killing people over in Iran too.
ANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 606 times:
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 16): Are you really this naive, are are you doing this on purpose?
Quoting Dc863 (Reply 23): You're joking right? We should sit down with a fascist and have a grand ol' time while we eat cookies and sip tea. Iran's leaders have been digging their own grave since 1979. There's nothing to discuss. Besides Iran gets 40% of it's oil imported since they don't have the ability to properly refine the product themselves.
Actually the point I was trying to make is that ONE reason for the spike in oil prices is the perceived risk that some supply could be cut off, or increased risk of further war in the region etc. Each time the US administration (you know those guys with N-weapons) open's its mouth in public on the situation the market gets nervous and prices go up. I'm not saying that the US should change its position on Iran/Iraq (I'll leave that to another thread) I'm saying that George should be aware of the effect of his sabre-rattling. IMHO I think he is - if he wasn't he would be stupid, wouldn't he?
Cfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 585 times:
Quoting ANother (Reply 25): I'm saying that George should be aware of the effect of his sabre-rattling.
Bush has not been sabre-rattling. Sabbre-rattling is Ahmedinnerjacket starts yelling about Israel being destroyed, or that they will send suicide bombers to the US. AFAIK, Bush has not said anything close to this.
You are right though, the markets add a risk margin whenever they detect a risk of instability. What Wall Street wants most of all is steadiness and predictability.
25 Cptkrell: Pundits on both sides of the oil-price argument have consistently been opining that at least $20/barrel cost is due to real and perceived geo-politica
26 Max999: It's nice to see that there are intelligent people on here who can see both sides of the argument on gas prices (production & conservation).
27 Mrmeangenes: Humph ! While you folks were grousing about the price of gasoline, the irrepressible PEACE MOONBEAM , and her companion, the sagacious SCOOTER, were d
28 Nitrohelper: I remember 1973-'74, then 1980-'82 we made changes and continued with our lives,this to will make changes take place .I hope oil continues to be over
29 L-188: Guys I am not going to go out and spend the money on a little car if I am still on lease on the SUV or upside down in a loan. I think I said it somewh
30 Aither: In Europe the SUV market is booming. Saloon cars are always larger and weight more annihilating all the improvements in fuel consumptions during the p
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