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New 'stealth' Arms Race In The Western Hemisphere  
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4313 posts, RR: 11
Posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2303 times:

Military spending in the world's most powerful military, the United States, has been increasing dramatically ever since that country has been fighting it's war on terrorism against anti-US entities. This increase is across the board in air power, increased number of brand new state of the art navy ships, a new generation of jet fighters, increased spending in spy equipment, and increased research in a new generation of bombing equipement.

But now Canada could be also joining an ever increasing arms race in the Western Hemisphere, to assert Canada as a regional power and to also increase it's presence in the North Pole region. On the increase for Canada are patrol ships, perhaps an increase in the number of submarines, and more radar equipment.

México has recently bought an undetermined amount of modern russian jet fighters, Sukhoi-27, which the government says it will use to patrol the oil field rich region in the Bay of Campeche, among other upgrades of equipment in a country historically not known for spending major sums on it's military. In 2005 for the first time since the 19th century, Mexican military logistics mounted operations in the US in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

In South America, Hugo Chavez's Venezuela has been buying large amounts of military equimpment, some of which is heavy armaments and ships, 33 helicopters plus transport planes from Russia and Spain. A large portion of it however is smaller arms, such as 100,000 high powered rifles to increase dramatically the size of the Venezuelan standing Army.

Colombia, with some US assistance, also has significantly improved it's firepower and military strength with state of the art US equimpent, which of course is mostly destined to the fight against the insurgent guerrilas, but also AMX-30s from Spain for other military uses.

Brazil's military spending has also increased significantly. It is mostly focusing on jet fighters and transport equipment to beef up by large amounts Brazil's military strength in the vast Amazon basin. But it has also diversified: it has purchased Black Hawk helicopters, Saudi training fighters, US torpedoes and South African misiles, as well as ramped up production of home made fighters.

Chile's armament buildup is even more significant, as some of it's new equipment are a first in the region. F-16s with air-to-air capabilities, Leopard II tanks from Germany, two submarines from Spain and France with missile launching capabilities, and other equimpent.

Ecuador has increased it's military spending to over 3.5% of GDP for the first time ever and is purchasing new jet fighters (still undetermined), to match Peru's increase in firepower. Even Bolivia is upgrading tanks and Uruguay is increasing the size of it's navy and coast guard.

Peru with an economy 1/5 of Argentina's is spending four times as much in military spending, which includes a batch of very capable jet fighters MIG-29s and Mirage 2000s, and cruise launcing frigates.

And then there is Argentina, which last year spent a record LOW in military spending for the last 30 years in proportion to GDP. Argentina's military equipment is completely obsolete even when far poorer neighbors have acquired newer weapons, and the armed forces lie at their smallest size in 45 years even as they have the largest number of deployed troops around the world in UN missions.

Analysts baffeled as to why. With virtually all countries in the hemisphere increasing fire power dramatically Argentina's military spending is decreasing, making the constrast even more stark. Most nations in the region now spend more overall dollars in military, even as Argentina has the 3rd largest economy, highest per capita, and the fastest growing economy in the Western Hemisphere in the last half decade.

(Sources: JORGE MARIRRODRIGA- El Pais/Spain | 29/04/2006 | 18:33 ; DANILO ARBILLA- El Universal Domingo 23 de abril de 2006 ; Jorge Alejandro Medellín- El Universal/México Miércoles 26 de abril de 2006)

- - - - - - - -

By 2010 most countries in the region will have much more lethal and powerful toys in their military arsenal. Yet we see all these political exchanges between countries in the Americas. I think this arms races is quite dangerous and all that money could be spent in other areas. Why have the nations of the Western Hemisphere become more militaristic?


My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3691 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2263 times:

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
But now Canada could be also joining an ever increasing arms race in the Western Hemisphere, to assert Canada as a regional power and to also increase it's presence in the North Pole region. On the increase for Canada are patrol ships, perhaps an increase in the number of submarines, and more radar equipment.

Thats funny. Canada a regional power? The author is daft. They have no military capabilities and any purchasees they make are simply to replace decrepit, sinking vessels. They don't need a military when they live next to the most powerful military in the world.


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8732 posts, RR: 42
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2256 times:

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 1):
They don't need a military

Well, someone has to bomb the Baldwin manor!  duck 

Other than that, the author is obviously trying to make believe that poor countries purchasing multi-million dollar wartoys is a good thing and that Argentina should "keep up with the Joneses". I think it'd be smartest to increase funding for education before spending money on tanks that will probably never be needed, but then again I don't think war is an inherently good idea.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2248 times:

Considering that the United States engaged in a $1 trillion build-up in our armed forces under President Reagan at a time when our GDP, as measured in constant dollars, was about half what it is now, I'm not at all concerned about our military expenditures, except that it should be spent wisely.

As for the expenditures of other countries in this Hemisphere, let them do what they will, until it becomes a real issue of military concern, which is unlikely.

[Edited 2006-05-01 03:27:05]

User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4313 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2236 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 2):

Actually the newspapers were Mexican and Spanish. There is no 'keep up with the joneses' slant there at all! I edited down the articles but they have nothing to do with Argentina, very little was devoted to it and most of it was about the other countries.

Of course the US should not be 'very' concerned, but if you have followed Latin American country relations recently, such new weaponry in the region isn't exactly a sign of status-quo and should be a big concern for the countries within the region.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2180 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 4):
Of course the US should not be 'very' concerned, but if you have followed Latin American country relations recently, such new weaponry in the region isn't exactly a sign of status-quo and should be a big concern for the countries within the region.

I see. Well, in some ways, I consider America to be part of that region, as well, so if it starts being a big problem among Latin American countries, we're going to have to monitor the situation closely.

I wonder how an arms race might affect Latin America. Do you think that there will be attempts to resolve border disputes by force, for example? Will Hugo Chavez be tempted to declare his country a global superpower? It occurs to me that these are things that aren't necessarily well covered by U.S. media outlets.


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2163 times:

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
México has recently bought an undetermined amount of modern russian jet fighters, Sukhoi-27

Mexico bought SU-27'S ??? What the hell for , Why would Mexico need air superiority fighters to guard oil fields ? That's great the country can not feed half its people but they need SU-27's.

Its a good topic Derico, I plan on reading up on this more. Optimistically speaking it shows overall stabilization of the central governments and some increased capital to invest. The pesimistic view is obvious.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4313 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2156 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 5):
I see. Well, in some ways, I consider America to be part of that region, as well, so if it starts being a big problem among Latin American countries, we're going to have to monitor the situation closely.

Well it is but I don't see any country in the region being a military threat to the US in the next 50 years, that's what I mean.

The thing is that there HAVE been 'wars' recently. In 1995 Peru and Ecuador fought an undeclared conflict for a disputed region in the Amazon. Now you see Peru purchasing Mirage 2000, very nice aircraft, and Ecuador planning something similar.

More recently, Peru and Chile are in a dispute over maritime borders, and Chile now has F-16s and 100 Leopard II tanks, quite impressive. Most of that equipment is being deployed in the northern areas of Chile, where there is also the Bolivian claim to an exit to the Pacific.

Colombia and Venezuela have had plenty of problems along their borders recently, and Brazil now has blackhawks, a bunch of new jet fighters to patrol it's amazon region.

So it's not like hostilities have not happened even in the last 10 years or so, and with all this new weaponry, I doubt it would be purchased just to have it rust...

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 6):
Mexico bought SU-27'S ??? What the hell for , Why would Mexico need air superiority fighters to guard oil fields ? That's great the country can not feed half its people but they need SU-27's.

SU-27's, I knew someone would take notice of that one! Nice little toys. I think the F-16s are still superior but the SU-27s can give them a nice little run for their money if kept well...

Theoretically ALL countries in Latin America, and yes, even the USA could use a lot of that money in military to improve the infraestructure of their countries. I personally don't oppose some military renewal be countries, but what is happening now is not replacement, but replacement + upgrade + size increase.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2154 times:

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 1):
Thats funny. Canada a regional power? The author is daft. They have no military capabilities and any purchasees they make are simply to replace decrepit, sinking vessels. They don't need a military when they live next to the most powerful military in the world.

Canada is pushing a claim to the Northwest Passage, which several countries refuse to acknowledge and insist as being International Waters (despite it fitting requirements for territorial waters used in other claims), and needs a military strength to force the issue.

The US has several times used this passage without asking Canadian permission, which maintains ownership of the waters as 'Canadian Internal Waters', and has issued notice that it would protect the sovereignty of the waters as long ago as 1986 and as recently as April 2006.

Its an ongoing dispute and it isnt going away any time soon.


User currently offlineDiamond From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3279 posts, RR: 63
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2145 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 7):
SU-27's, I knew someone would take notice of that one! Nice little toys. I think the F-16s are still superior but the SU-27s can give them a nice little run for their money if kept well...

Yes this is interesting, but does anyone know whether this is fact? I am very surprised by this.



Blank.
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4313 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2141 times:

Here is the link, it is in Spanish, and I'm too lazy to translate (I did in my OT, from various articles I read this last week), so...

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/345443.html

www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/345443.html



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2128 times:

Thanks for the update, Derico. This is another reason to take an interest in foreign policy on the part of those in this country who have a stake in peace in our region, which I think includes just about all of us.  Smile

User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2124 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 8):
Canada is pushing a claim to the Northwest Passage, which several countries refuse to acknowledge and insist as being International Waters (despite it fitting requirements for territorial waters used in other claims), and needs a military strength to force the issue.

Canada using military strength against the US. OMG that's funny.

The Salvation Army could invade and overtake Canada in about 24 hours and that includes stopping for lunch and dinner.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4313 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2124 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 11):

Yeah. To be fair I don't think Mexico will become meaningfully more agressive towards other countries, just perhaps more assertive in it's own policies. One has to say that while the US can be fairly criticized for meddling in other nations affairs, their military power has been historically far more restrained than their potential use. So one has to give the benefit of the doubt.

I would be more concerned with the Andean region of South America.



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User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4313 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2120 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 12):
Canada using military strength against the US. OMG that's funny.

The Salvation Army could invade and overtake Canada in about 24 hours and that includes stopping for lunch and dinner.

What are you saying? That should Canada assert a military presence in it's own territory, the United States will launch some sort of massive offensive?



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2109 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 12):
Canada using military strength against the US. OMG that's funny.

The Salvation Army could invade and overtake Canada in about 24 hours and that includes stopping for lunch and dinner.

Canada is one of the US's largest oil and petroleum suppliers, they dont need a military to push an issue.

The US imported 1.710 million barrels per day from Canada in February 2006, only surpassed by Mexico who supplied 1.774 million per day in the same period. Saudi Arabia came third with 1.4 million barrels per day.

Canada was also the US's largest supplier of manufactured petroleum in February 2006, supplying 2.2million barrels per day while the second largest was Mexico at 1.8 million barrels.

Sounds like Canada has a lot of bargaining power before even needing a military.

Also it wouldnt take long for Canada to build up a decent military if required, they have enough land in the region to base a large number of aircraft to patrol the area in dispute without ever needing an aircraft carrier.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4313 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2099 times:

"The Brazilian army has plenty to keep it busy in the Amazon jungle.

Drug smugglers, illegal loggers and miners, land grabbers, guerrillas and assorted gunmen all lurk in the untamed area which is larger than Western Europe and has 6,800 miles of porous borders with seven countries. However, the ultimate concern of Brazilian military strategists is that one day they might end up fighting a foreign power for control of the Amazon.

'The threats today are diverse. (One is) a superior military power to us and we have a strategy to resolve this,' said Gen. Claudio Barbosa de Figueiredo, army commander for the Amazon region. 'Another great threat we consider is a power vacuum,' he said in an interview at his headquarters on a military base in Manaus, a sweltering port city on the Rio Negro.

Since the end of the 1964-85 military dictatorship, defending the Amazon has become a priority for Brazil's army. In recent years it has built up its troop strength to 22,000 and plans to have 26,000 by the end of 2006, Figueiredo said. Some 25 special frontier platoons with about 70 men each have been deployed in remote positions. The area is covered by the Amazon Vigilance System, a network of radars, computers and aircraft that looks for illegal air strips, incursions and environmental damage and which U.S. defense chief Donald Rumsfeld visited last month.

The perceived threat that lurks at the back of many Brazilians' minds is that outsiders covet the Amazon, a fear fanned whenever a foreign politician talks about the forest and its waters as an international resource.

Indeed, former EU Trade Commissioner Pascal Lamy, now a candidate to head the World Trade Organization, in February proposed the Amazon should designated 'global public goods' and be administered by the international community -- a proposal that drew a sharp rebuke from Brazilian government.

Brazil mounted a big Amazon exercise in November called Operation Ajuricaba involving 3,000 men, 35 planes and 170 boats. The enemy was a superior foreign military force.

'Brazilian armed forces planning for the hypothetical war in the Amazon region foresee the region turning into a new Vietnam,' Correio Braziliense newspaper wrote. Diplomats also note with interest that Vietnam has just posted a defense attache to its embassy in Brasilia.

CONCERN OVER FOREIGN POWERS

'The internationalization of the Amazon is one of the worries that takes us to this strategy of defense in relation to signs from big countries, not just the United States but also Europe," Gen. Figueiredo said. "We must be prepared. After all, the Brazilian Amazon is Brazilian.' "


By Angus MacSwan (Reuters)

[Edited 2006-05-01 19:05:25]


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User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2079 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 14):
What are you saying?

Originally intended as more of joke than anything else.

But substantively that the massive Canadian build up of military might is laughable. Other than fending off some Japanese fishing vessels, who else is Canada going to pick a fight with? The US? Please.

I guarantee you that the US will steam whatever route it pleases through the NW passage.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4313 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2056 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 17):
I guarantee you that the US will steam whatever route it pleases through the NW passage.

But don't you think that isn't exactly the healthiest attitude to take?



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User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2050 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 17):
I guarantee you that the US will steam whatever route it pleases through the NW passage.

If they do, I hope Canada does try and sink some, just to see what would happen  Smile

[Edited 2006-05-01 21:51:58]

User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2033 times:

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
the United States, has been increasing dramatically ever since that country has been fighting it's war on terrorism against anti-US entities. This increase is across the board in air power, increased number of brand new state of the art navy ships, a new generation of jet fighters, increased spending in spy equipment, and increased research in a new generation of bombing equipement.

Well this is partcially true, we have increased spending for our current wars, but long running expensive programs such as the F-22 and Comanche Helicopter have been downsized or cancelled altogether. Much of our increased spending currently is on keping exsisting weapongs in the fight.

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Argentina, which last year spent a record LOW in military spending for the last 30 years in proportion to GDP

Just a hind sight thought, would the Falklands have turned out different if more money was spent? Not knocking either side on this, just curious.

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Why have the nations of the Western Hemisphere become more militaristic?

The percieved threat of terrorism.

Quoting Pope (Reply 17):
who else is Canada going to pick a fight with? The US?

I happen to recall a group of Canadian fishermen who blockaded an Alaska Marine highway system ferry in Prince Rupert I believe, it nearly became an international incident with the US and Canada having a border skurmish where the Alaskans were throwing tourists overboard like depth charges to thwart the evil canadian fishermen, they used WMDs by throwing rotten bait on the deck of said ferry. See that is the western journalists not covering real news. But then again there is a huge coverup over the whole thing just like chem trails, the moon landing, JFK and 9-11. Its all the skull and crossbones crowd from Yale. GWB was involved from the planning.  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2023 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 19):
If they do, I hope Canada does try and sink some, just to see what would happen

Absolutely. I'd love to see what some of our Navy equipment could do. It's a shame, the Army, Air Force and Marines get to use a lot more of their toys on a regular basis than the Navy ever does.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4313 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2021 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 20):
Just a hind sight thought, would the Falklands have turned out different if more money was spent? Not knocking either side on this, just curious.

No. Argentina could have used it's entire military, trained the conscripts, made sure all missiles would detonate prior to war... in any event it would have been far worse for both sides and Britain could have bombed mainland Argentina with little opposition, the outcome would have not changed in the end. But I don't want to deviate from the subject. There have been plenty of threads on this subject already.

In fact I think it's because of Argentina's history of wars in the 19th century to annex territories from Paraguay (provinces of Formosa and Chaco), Bolivia (a northern region which was purchased), Brazil (the area around Iguazu Falls), Chile (most of Patagonia, not an actual war), the War of the Desert to exterminate the indians in the Pampas, but of course the experience in the Falklands and the dictatorship which have turned the country so anti-military.

In the last couple of years there has even been talk of ditching the military all together.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2013 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 19):
If they do, I hope Canada does try and sink some, just to see what would happen

You need to just let go of all that hade dude, its not healthy!

BTW, Canada taking on the US Navy?  laughing 



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1988 times:

It would be a disaster if the U.S. and Canada fought each other.

As regards the Northwest Passage, the Canadian Prime Minister has stirred up what essentially has been a simmering issue, and for what reason? Probably cheap populism.


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