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At Falwell's University, McCain Defends Iraq War  
User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1893 times:


Senator John McCain of Arizona, left,
and the Rev. Jerry Falwell on Saturday.


LYNCHBURG, Va., May 13 — With the Rev. Jerry Falwell at his side, Senator John McCain offered a spirited defense of the Iraq war on Saturday, telling graduating students at Liberty University that victory there was crucial to world security. But Mr. McCain urged opponents of the war to vigorously "state their opposition" in the interest of critical debate on this increasingly unpopular conflict.

"If an American feels the decision was unwise, then they should state their opposition and argue for another course — it is your right and obligation," Mr. McCain said, adding, "But I ask that you consider the possibility that I, too, am trying to meet my responsibilities, to follow my conscience, to do my duty as best as I can, as God has given me light to see that duty."

Mr. McCain, an Arizona Republican and a likely presidential candidate in 2008, made his remarks to 2,500 graduates in a high-profile appearance at the university, which was founded by Mr. Falwell, a conservative religious leader whom he once described as an agent of "intolerance" and a threat to the Republican Party.

The appearance came as Mr. McCain — trying to establish an early dominance in the Republican presidential nomination battle — has sought to ease tensions with Republican conservatives who have long been suspicious of his commitment to conservative ideals, a perception that was stirred by his difficult history with Mr. Falwell.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/14/wa...6cdf51cbf&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Every time I think that maybe this man finally 'gets it', he goes and pisses his credibility away by kissing up to the very conservative base that's already responsible for getting us in this mess of a 'holy war' in the first place.


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45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMigFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1892 times:

I think it takes a great number of cahones to be photographed with Mr. Falwell. It is fine to hate the war, but do not hate the troops. They are fighting for our freedom...

/M


User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1881 times:

I read the CNN article, I think the big issue here more than appearing at a conservative college graduation is his saying to discuss the war, and he respects the opinions of those who disagree with them, that is what makes him a great man, he has already called out Falwell on his intolerance, and he is there talking about tolerance for other opinions. McCain would have my vote right now in 08.

User currently offlineTIA From Albania, joined Mar 2006, 524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1874 times:

I was starting a thread about this, when your topic popped up right as I was pressing post.

Anyway, I like McCain for the most part, but it's sad that he has to whore himself out like this for the ultra-religious vote.


User currently offlineDuff44 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1723 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1872 times:

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
-Voltaire

It's refereshing to see somebody in Washington embrace debate instead of dismissing a differing opinion as being wrong, unlike most elected morons.

I say congrats to John McCain... he's the last of a dying breed.



I'll rassle ya for a bowl of bacon!
User currently offlinePSA727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 974 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1872 times:

You're right. I would much rather have Sen. McCain take the high
road with Clinton, Shumer, and Kerry (who also gave the President
authorization to invade Iraq), and say that he was lied to by the
President and in hindsight going to war was wrong.

And by the way, wasn't Falwell at first skeptical about invading Iraq,
but had met with the President beforehand and left the meeting with
a changed viewpoint? Or did I read that wrong in the media reports,
and from what I heard come out of his mouth?



fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1852 times:

Sen. McCain has been the favorite son of the press, somehow they thought he was a maverick. Let's just sit back and see how fast the press now turns against him, since he has been showing his ultra-conservative roots as of late, also wondering how will this play with the independent voters.

User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1831 times:

Is it just me, or does Falwell look like a Toad?
Yeah, admit it, he does.

Anyway.
McCain is done good.
And he isn't kissing up to Falwell's sphincter, because if he was, he would be preaching blind allegiance, which he is not.
He is encouraging open, intelligent debate.
If he was really lodged firmly in the Toad's buttcrack, he'd be doing his finest Yosemite Sam impersonation: shooting with one round: Chavez, Castro, Qaddaffi, Park, Ahmadinejad, and when he done putting a cap in these desperados, he'd dump a first class Grade-A Large NUKE on their dumpy little countries to let them know he was serious!....NOW that is good ole Toad Prince Diplomacy, Death to the infidels through Jesus!
And that isn't what McCain was saying.....actually does the Right Reverend have a somewhat disappointed look on his face?

So how McCain came off is Very interesting.

Unfortunate thing about the Toad, is that he controls what so many people "Think", that to forge any cohesive agenda within the Republican party, requires getting up close and personal to this disturbed little man.....but, McCain did good. He did very good. Don't get so bent out of shape TIA, he is still a good guy, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have to get dirty once in awhile.



Delete this User
User currently offlineFlyguyAZ From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1825 times:

Quoting SATX (Thread starter):
At Falwell's University, McCain Defends Iraq War

Because he is a tool.

Speaking as an Arizonan who hears about McCain all the time, not just around election years- in the beginning of the Bush years he actually stood up for what he believed in based on his campaign views in 2000, but as the years have gone on he has shifted more and more and more and more to the right in order to kiss up to the president and kiss up to the right wing of the party. It's really very sad, because he could really have been the "compassionate conservative" that Bush never was or intended to be.

Quoting MigFan (Reply 1):
They are fighting for our freedom...

I support the troops- they are braver and more hard working under the most horrible circumstances than I could ever be. They are sacrificing their lifestyles, seeing their children grow up, being with their spouses, and in some cases giving up their lives.

But Saddam Hussein was never a threat to OUR freedom.

And, if you used the reasoning that ANY dictatorship is a threat to our freedom by its mere existence then we should simultaneously be at war with Iraq, Iran, Libya, North Korea, China, Cuba.

Of all of the names on that list, Iraq was about the LEAST threat to our freedom.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 7):
And he isn't kissing up to Falwell's sphincter, because if he was, he would be preaching blind allegiance

Most people, especially the religious right who are only marginally literate for the most part, will not read the CNN article, the FOX news article, or the speech. They will merely see McCain's picture with "The Toad" and connect him with their cause. So, yes, it was a bit of whoring on the part of the good senator.

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 5):
Clinton, Shumer, and Kerry (who also gave the President
authorization to invade Iraq), and say that he was lied to by the
President and in hindsight going to war was wrong

Well quite frankly I don't think there is anything wrong with this position.

They WERE lied to by the president and if they had had all of the intelligence correctly provided to them they WOULD NOT have voted for the resolution. So why can't they say that?

IIRC the resolution didn't actually "authorize invasion," but rather gave Congress's blessing to the president to do as he saw fit, be that invasion or not. The only mistake those senators made was believing that the weasel in the White House would actually make a good faith decision.

And if I were one of those senators I would wish every day I could take back the vote that seemingly lent my support to a needless war that has killed nearly 2,000 fine young men and women from this country not to mention the tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

And, if you really want to support our troops, I suggest that you vote for a Democrat come this November and 11408



Future ER Doc!
User currently offlineJohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2561 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1814 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 7):
Is it just me, or does Falwell look like a Toad?

Actually with his crimson/black "caftan" and that mystical gold medallion, he far more resembled the High Priest @ the Lynchburg chapter of the Church of Satan.


User currently offlineMaury From United States of America, joined May 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1794 times:

Fascnating as ever: Kerry Is a "waffler" for exploring ideas, McCain is "A True Patriot" for felching Jerry Falwell...a man he called "an example of evil" and rightly so. But that was when he was courting the "maverick" label, before the rumours of mental instability began to be circulated by Rove-ing Republican activists and his run for higher office derailed. Having learned his lesson (and from the very best!), the good Senator from Arizona is now free to shout his distaste for gays, his opposition for choice for women, and his deeply-felt love for Fambly Valoos.

And the glassy-eyed faithful will applaud. Sorry: read above, they already are.


User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1783 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 7):
And he isn't kissing up to Falwell's sphincter, because if he was, he would be preaching blind allegiance, which he is not. He is encouraging open, intelligent debate.

You know what it looks like to me? It looks like he's preaching to Poland from Hitler's side. "Good luck to those who don't want to become part of Germany; that's a very healthy viewpoint and I applaud your patriotic perseverance. Germany is a stronger superpower with a few dissenters in our labor camps. Sorry, but I can't offer any other assistance because I'm busy trying to get elected here."

Quoting Maury (Reply 10):

 checkmark  100%  thumbsup  You're dead-on accurate with that one.



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User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1781 times:

Decent speech, not too over the top, and I didn't - as some (the obvious ones, SATX and Maury) say - see McCain kissing anyone's ass . . . .

McCain has blasted Falwell and the religious nutjobs in the past . . . and not because it was convenient.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 2):
McCain would have my vote right now in 08.

 checkmark  One can only hope . . .

Maury . . . you were only half right . . . McCain has always spoken his mind . . . it's not something new and not something he started just last week . . . .

McCain in '08


User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1777 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
Decent speech, not too over the top, and I didn't - as some (the obvious ones, SATX and Maury) say - see McCain kissing anyone's ass . . . .

McCain has blasted Falwell and the religious nutjobs in the past . . . and not because it was convenient.

I can see where you're coming from and there was a time that I would have agreed with you. But that time has long since passed.

McCain has gone from a brash maverick to the ultimate flip-flopper. It honestly looks like he's trying to have it both ways at the same time. He apparently wants to keep both the moderate crowd and the diehard GOP base behind him, but the only way that's possible is to play silly games like this. Asking Poland to rise up while standing at Hitler's side is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. It's a game, and quite honestly I'm rather surprised you don't see it as such.

No matter what McCain has done in his past, and I think we can all agree that he has had a rather distinguished past, he's still only as good as he's willing to be today. What happened to McCain in 2000 and what happened to Kerry in 2004 taught us that no matter how good your past was viewed yesterday, you can't rely on it forever. Sooner or later it's going to be challenged and a thirty second sound bite can undo thirty years of public service in an instant.

McCain is a rather unfortunate soul who has seemingly chosen the coward's way out. Instead of standing his ground with honor, and possibly going down with the sinking popularity of his formerly moderate values, he's apparently decided to don a dress and hop in the lifeboat with all the others.



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User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1775 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
McCain has blasted Falwell and the religious nutjobs in the past . . . and not because it was convenient.

OK, good for him. So now what's changed with the nutjobs that now he can stand next to them and expound their bogus fascist worldview ? If it walks like a duck, and panders like a duck...


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1773 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 13):
He apparently wants to keep both the moderate crowd and the diehard GOP base behind him

I tend to agree - and would expect nothing else from a Presidential Candidate . . .

Let us hope he can balance it carefully enough to reduce (and hopefully) eliminate the appearance of . . .

Quoting SATX (Reply 13):
the ultimate flip-flopper

. . . which is what, IMO, caused Mr. Kerry so many problems in the last election.

Quoting SATX (Reply 13):
No matter what McCain has done in his past, and I think we can all agree that he has had a rather distinguished past, he's still only as good as he's willing to be today.

As totally screwed up as BOTH parties are these days, McCain's past will play a role, but you're correct - he has to be squeaky clean today . . . any appearance of waffling will damage his reputation.

I'm the first to admit I'm sorry to see him sitting there with Falwell - the ultimate Religious Right Wing Screwball Nutjob Head Case . . . I thought better of him tha that . . . but a political campaign puts you in the proximity of strange bed fellows . . .

Like I said, lets hope he can balance this out . . .

Quoting SATX (Reply 13):
he's apparently decided to don a dress and hop in the lifeboat with all the others.

I disagree - but I like the analogy here . . .


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1770 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15):
but a political campaign puts you in the proximity of strange bed fellows . . .

Yes well, as strange bedfellows go, Falwell is the political equivalent of an inflatable sheep dressed in leather. There are limits, even in American politics, surely. Shows how much further to the right US politics appears to have swung when an serious aspirant Presidential candidate (with an actual chance of scoring a mandate) actively woos these people - if I was American, that would worry the hell out of me.


User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1716 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1762 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 16):
There are limits, even in American politics, surely.

There are, but as ANCFlyer points out, there are issues of practical necessity in play here that just can't be ignored. If you want to win the GOP nomination, you MUST get the religious right on your side. That's just a fact. All the Republicans will have to do that regardless of their "real" social agenda.

The same is true for the Democrats on the other end of the political spectrum. If you want to win the nomination you have to get the Liberal hardcore behind you.

The risk in all of this, of course, is that in your ambition to placate the extremists, you alienate the moderates who you need to win the general election. Right now that risk is amplified because Bush has established such a strong identity with those social conservatives. Associating yourself too closely with the religious right, and therefore with Bush, could be a serious liability for any GOP candidate in the general election.



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlinePSA727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 974 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1747 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 13):
Asking Poland to rise up while standing at Hitler's side is a perfect example of what I'm talking about

Maybe asking Poland to rise up while standing at Hitler's side also
supporting and propogating Hitler's ideals would be a better anaology
if you could even compare the two, which you can't.

I don't think McCain is the message boy for Farwell, and I don't think
he plans on becoming one.

I find Hillary's MLK Day speech getting down with her bad self, while
talking about the "plantation" mentality in the Congress the ultimate
example of pandering, not this graduation speech by McCain.



fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
User currently offlineMaury From United States of America, joined May 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1743 times:

Ya know, all of the hard-core Reeps on here are right (way right): McCain has been consistent. Consistently anti-gay, consistently anti-choice, a solid pro-war dude...defiintely worth your votes. Sure, he had that embarassing moment years ago when he called Falwell and all those who stood with him "evil" and other names, but as we've all learned: mistakes are made, and a thorough apology and a good commencement speech can work wonders to erase those bad old memories. If he were a Flaming Communist--sorry, Democrat--your humble opinion, oft-spoken, would be that he flip-flops on rather significant moral issues, but, phew!, he's a freedom-loving Republican, and so just speaks his mind(s.)


Maybe there's hope, though, if Sen. McCain can be persuaded to flip on some of his other views and then stick there--I'd agree to call that "progress." Perching next to Jerry Falwell is anything but progressive...unless all you're running for is President of the GOP.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1738 times:

First step in the painful process of the Republican primary.

To win the primaries, you have to win the Fallwell/Robertson votes.

McCain's whoring out to Fallwell disgusts me - which other 4th tier unselective school gets luminaries such as McCain to visit? (Oh, yes, Bob Jones University, that other beacon of knowledge in the western hemisphere). However, the fact that this so-called university graduates 2500 people each year terrifies me.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1724 times:

Quoting Maury (Reply 19):

Oh how conveniently we forget the times McCain and a handful of other Senators got together to stop the bullshit just before the committee hearings and votes no the Supreme Court Justices . . . little things like that. You know Maury, the times when he did his job as a Senator and moved legislation or congressional matters forward using COMPROMISE to get the job done . . . rather than the standard issue  redflag  that is so prevalent DC these days.


User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1720 times:

Quoting SATX (Thread starter):

Every time I think that maybe this man finally 'gets it', he goes and pisses his credibility away by kissing up to the very conservative base that's already responsible for getting us in this mess of a 'holy war' in the first place.

Its what politicians do. They try to appease as many people as possible without pissing too many off. Rhetoric and platform deciding public-opinion polls are the face of modern politics, whether they are liberals or conservatives. I guarantee that he will run next election. The only reason why he didn't last, is because he would have had to beat Bush which would have alienated him from Republicans.


User currently offlineGilligan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1709 times:

Quoting Duff44 (Reply 4):
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
-Voltaire



Quoting Stirling (Reply 7):
He is encouraging open, intelligent debate.



Quoting FlyguyAZ (Reply 8):
It's really very sad, because he could really have been the "compassionate conservative" that Bush never was or intended to be.

Are we talking about the same McCain that was the driving force behind the latest "Campaign Finance Reform" which had the net effect of whittling down your first amendment rights at election time? No, no vote here for the little Napoleon.

Quoting FlyguyAZ (Reply 8):
So why can't they say that?

Because that would be an outright lie. Senators have the right to have closed door hearings and get just about any information they want. Senators on the intelligence committees can get anything they want.

Quoting FlyguyAZ (Reply 8):
IIRC the resolution didn't actually "authorize invasion," but rather gave Congress's blessing to the president to do as he saw fit, be that invasion or not. The only mistake those senators made was believing that the weasel in the White House would actually make a good faith decision.

Any politician who voted for the authorization and didn't know it was a vote to give the President the power to invade was fooling only themselves and has no leg to stand on at this point. Hence the "I voted for it before I voted against it" which had everyone chuckling.

A politician with his or her eyes on the Presidency has to accommodate a lot of conflicting opinions in their brain. This is just the latest in his. BTW, if he is nominated see how fast he files a lawsuit against anybody, save the press, that dares air an ad about the "Keating Five" within 90 days of the election.


User currently offlineMaury From United States of America, joined May 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1696 times:

Oh ANC...step down from the righteous box and try to remember the times Democrats (like Sen. Kerry) compromised, and were labelled "wafflers." Reeps compromise, Dems flip-flop, and y'all applaud the strong convictions of a man who's storngest conviction is that he really, really wants to be President of the US, and who will happily lend a couple of hours of his valuable time to say a few words to the good children of Liberty U, as a favor for his new friend Jerry.

His new friend Pat will want some favors too. His other friends, of the religious right and conservative fringe, will ask for and receive favors too. And, given his already-stated antipathy for gays, the rights of women...he won't find it too terribly hard to grant those favors. He'll stand up bigtime in defense of marriage, like any good divorced man would. He'll probably have a big plate of 'cue at Maurice's Piggy Park, for all of that--and it might stick in his craw for a minute, but he *will* swallow.

But our right-wing friends will say: "he's building consensus, not like those appeasin' Dimmycrats." It's amusing; it only becomes sad and a bit scary when people believe it.

I think we all agree that being open to new ideas, being able to listen to many and find positive directions in which to lead, are Good Things. When the "new ideas" you're listening to come from, and your new direction leads to, Falwell, Robertson & Co., well...that's not such a Good Thing to a lot of us.


25 LTBEWR : McCain is a Politican. He wants to stay in power either as a Senator or even run for President. To do that, then has to kiss a lot of 'toads' for mone
26 ANCFlyer : Noooo, Kerry Flip Flopped . . . Other democrats - whether I like them or not - stick to their guns on whatever subject . . . Democats can compromise
27 Jaysit : Actually, McCain is not alone in that. Names that come to mind of Senators who surpass McCain in the ability to compromise are Susan Collins (R-Maine
28 PSA727 : And it's the moderates who control the grassroots level of the Democratic Party??? Someone needs to pass that memo onto Mr. Moore and MoveOn.org
29 Post contains images ANCFlyer : There are others . . . and they are attempting to do the job the people elected them to do, rather than doing the bidding of the Majority/Minority Le
30 Maury : So who's peeling the "McCain in '08" sticker off the back of their car? Thought not.
31 ANCFlyer : I don't have a McCain in '08, if you've one handy, please send it . . . Neither Repubs nor the Dems have a candidate that is as viable as McCain at t
32 DeltaGator : One of my main reasons for ignoring the Cobb County GOP these days. It's not whether you have good ideas or not but rather what church you go to that
33 Post contains images Fumanchewd : Cut Maury some slack. I understand Connie has just hit menopause and is a bear to live with. Please no Prizzly jokes.[Edited 2006-05-15 06:32:09]
34 Jaysit : Actually the grassroots of the Democratic party are controlled by no one. Its sort of a sad testament as well to the confusion that rules the Democra
35 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Well, on this rare occasion we agree 100% . . . I will gladly admit, the repubs have no one in their corner either . . . As a matter of fact, who the
36 DeltaGator : Darn spellcheck doesn't check grammar. I meant "there" obviously. Very true. The Dems seem so scatterbrained at almost all levels these days. There i
37 AeroWesty : Cousin Ken Mehlman
38 ANCFlyer : Cousin WHO? I know my blood line is from Alabama, and we're all related, but who the fuck is Ken whatshisname??? Google here I come.
39 Post contains images AeroWesty : The talking head on the news with a lisp.
40 Maury : Nice swerve: the dems don't have a viable candidate! Reality: many of you are actually looking to see where you can get a bumper sticker to support a
41 Slider : Neither do the Republicans. Both parties are lost in the woods, there are no first raters on the horizon at a time when the country needs a true lead
42 Dvk : No, he didn't. You and millions of others just chose not to listen to his very sound explanation that he voted "against" the war the next time becaus
43 ANCFlyer : Well, okay . . . he didn't . . . I'll play along . . . Nor did he have a plan . . . you know - "I have a Plan to do ABC, XYZ", but no one could ever
44 Bushpilot : I see it differently, and I am pretty liberal in these forums, what I see is him correcting an issue that has/is plaguing DC for a long time. Its an
45 ANCFlyer : Spot on . . . Good post . . . The problem, Bushpilot, with some of the more extreme liberals, is even if a GOP member is a in the center on most issu
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