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User currently offlineSeb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11720 posts, RR: 15
Posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 973 times:

It is possible to have an electric/gasoline hybrid engine. The way I understand, the Prius can switch between electric and gas power for the engine. Is it possible to have an electric/biodeisel hybrid engine? Would it have any power? I have heard that biodeisel is better for the environment than gasoline, is cheaper, and reduce dependance on oil.

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15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineChristeljs From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 533 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 973 times:

What kinda engines are we talking about here ?


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User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29805 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 959 times:

Quoting Seb146 (Thread starter):
Is it possible to have an electric/biodeisel hybrid engine? Would

Yes.

A hybrid is a combination of an electric plant and a internal combustion plant.

So you could have any form of internal combustion engine in it, Gas, Diesel, Biodiesel, Wankel, Rotary, turbine.

Quoting Seb146 (Thread starter):
Would it have any power?

Don't see why not. Normal Diesel engines seem to do just fine.

Quoting Seb146 (Thread starter):
I have heard that biodeisel is better for the environment than gasoline, is cheaper, and reduce dependance on oil.

Thats the sales pitch. Right now I don't belive it is because of the costs of manufacturing the fuel. Those will go down as mass production starts to take place, but for right now I don't see it being cheaper then normal diesel.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlinePilotsmoe From United States of America, joined May 2005, 249 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 956 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 2):

Don't see why not. Normal Diesel engines seem to do just fine.



Quoting Seb146 (Thread starter):
Is it possible to have an electric/biodeisel hybrid engine? Would it have any power?

Don't forget about diesel/electric train loco's  Wink


User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 945 times:

You can mix and match all you want from a purely technical standpoint. One car alone can have the following power sources...

1. Bio-diesel fuel tank (also charges the battery)
2. Electrical power from your house (stored in the battery)
3. Electrical power from the sun (on-the-go or stored in the battery)

The charge from the house wouldn't go very far, but it would increase the overall mileage just the same. Likewise, the charge from the sun would not be enough to power the car on its own but it could still help increase the overall mileage even more. There is no limit to the number of potential energy sources from a technical point of view, but getting Americans to pay more for better mileage and better emissions is a tough sell where I live.



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User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 945 times:

I don't think a diesel/electric hybrid would be that great of an idea.
Diesel engines lose efficiency if they were to be repeatedly switched on and off, as is the case in the Prius hybrid. I'd think you'd fry the glow plug.



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User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 936 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 5):
I don't think a diesel/electric hybrid would be that great of an idea.
Diesel engines lose efficiency if they were to be repeatedly switched on and off, as is the case in the Prius hybrid. I'd think you'd fry the glow plug.

Most freight trains and long-distance passenger trains in the US are diesel-electric hybrids and they've been that way for a very long time now. The diesel engine never stops, but it can drop the RPM to a low idle when it's not being used. Although this is not how current production hybrid cars operate, it seems like it could be a viable option to use a small diesel engine to create electricity that is then used to move the wheels. From what I've read, some functional hybrid proto-types already use this type of system to move the car. Maybe somebody who knows more about this process can chime in here.



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User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29805 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 932 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 6):
Most freight trains and long-distance passenger trains in the US are diesel-electric hybrids and they've been that way for a very long time now

I have issues with describing a deisel-electric as a hybrid. In a train you have a continuously runninger engine driving either a generator or alternator that then provides the power for the electric drive motors on the axles. There is no storing of power. Now when a train is going downhill there can be installed a provision for the drive motors to act as generators and produce electricty which is not stored by run through a bank of resisters to use up the energy produced as heat. This is Dynamic Braking. Not all locomotives have this option.


THe UP is testing a switcher that is a true hybrid.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 924 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
I have issues with describing a deisel-electric as a hybrid.

The original diesel locomotives didn't have electric traction, they had a gearbox somewhat similar to how a car or truck does today. Conventional electric locomotives don't have diesel engines, they have powered rails or overhead wires. Certainly the combination of the two was worthy of the name hybrid? Today the term hybrid is more often associated with special-purpose locomotives that can function both as pure electrics and as diesel electrics, but the term can still be used on older designs that were new combinations for their time. Howstuffworks.com seems to agree with my view.

From http://www.howstuffworks.com...

This combination of diesel engine and electric generators and motors makes the locomotive a hybrid vehicle.

http://travel.howstuffworks.com/diesel-locomotive.htm



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User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29805 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 905 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 8):
The original diesel locomotives didn't have electric traction, they had a gearbox somewhat similar to how a car or truck does today

Ny original you are talking very early, because even the boxcab locomotives (Back then as many where gasoline powered) of the 1890's used electric traction motors.

Hell I think CN finally retired some after 90 years of service.....they built them strong back then.

Even what I could call the first really successful diesl locomotive the General Motors E-2 was diesel electric and that came out in the 1930's.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineGo3Team From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3267 posts, RR: 16
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 888 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 5):
I'd think you'd fry the glow plug.

Glow plugs are only needed if the temperature of the block is below a certain point. Depending on compression ratios, glow plugs are not needed in certain applications. Dropping the engine to idle would be the best solution as they hardly use any fuel at idle. A turbo could probably be added to increase performance.



Yay Pudding!
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 828 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 8):

The original diesel locomotives didn't have electric traction, they had a gearbox somewhat similar to how a car or truck does today. Conventional electric locomotives don't have diesel engines, they have powered rails or overhead wires.

Dang it L188 you beat me to the punch.

The commercialized 'automotive' type high speed diesel is a relatively recent development-it didn't exist much before the twenties because injector and pump technology wasn't good enough for high pressure direct injection. What you had was air blast injection that required a lot of compressor capacity....they used air blast injection oil engines in the U boats of war one. But there was no direct drive diesel locomotive that I am aware of unless you mean one a those trashy little Plymouth switchers or something.

As far as the conventional electric locomotive, I grew up on the Pennsy main line, the real high iron in central Jersey....they still had a lot of K4 steamers back in the day when I was a kid, and mother would take me down to the REA depot and we'd sit on the baggage carts and watch how the Pennsy moved stuff...but the pride of the company was the GG1, and I am sure I saw everyone of them. When you see *that*much*metal*doing*95 mph from 8six feet away* you can *feel* it.


User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 815 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 11):
But there was no direct drive diesel locomotive that I am aware of unless you mean one a those trashy little Plymouth switchers or something.

The gearbox was certainly a severe limitation when dealing with large amounts of force and it lent itself to small switchers more than anything else. However, pure diesels still predated diesel-electrics and the combination of diesel and electric technologies is still worthy of the term hybrid in my view. The fact that pure diesels were too weak and clumsy to handle heavy hauling has no bearing on my view of what constitutes a hybrid.



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User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29805 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 806 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 12):
However, pure diesels still predated diesel-electrics and the combination of diesel and electric technologies

I would also argue that the pure electric train predated the diesel-electric.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineGo3Team From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3267 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 803 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 13):
I would also argue that the pure electric train predated the diesel-electric.

I would argue that the horse and carriage predated that. :smirk:  Smile



Yay Pudding!
User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 764 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 13):
I would also argue that the pure electric train predated the diesel-electric.

How true indeed. Frank Sprague had electric trolleys running in the late 1880s. Amazing how soon we forget what technology can do for us if used appropriately. LA had a wonderful, efficient mass transit system inherited from the Pacific Electric, then tore it up and replaced it with freeways and a patchwork bus network. Now the State of California is spending hundreds of millions of dollars to replace something that should never have been abandoned.

As for the reason of the diesel electric combination-railroads reasoned that the hybrid locomotive was more cost effective for large operations than a pure electric locomotive and the power distribution systems required to operate them (catenary wire, substations, etc) and could be easily supported by the then existing networks of railway shops. Vehicles don't have to be capable of storing power to be true hybrids, it's just that most vehicles do to make maximum use of energy.



"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
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