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Hybrid Owners - Not Getting The MPG's You Hoped?  
User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1785 times:

I came across these two very good articles that will help you understand why. Good reads.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-02-03-hybridmileage_x.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prius

61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1775 times:

I love to see that they acknowledge that the cars batteries loose efficency below 32 degrees.

I've told you all before my sister used to work the customer service desk at the local toyota dealership and in the winter they where getting all sorts of compaints from Prius owners who where getting on the order of 10MPG for the car. Of course the temps in Alaska at that time of the years where below Zero.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1770 times:

Working just fine here in South Texas.  Smile


Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineBHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1747 times:

I've put 60,000+ miles on a Civic Hybrid and get very close to EPA mileage. I'd probably do better but I tend to drive 75 mph+ when possible.

There are some things that will hurt your mileage:

1. Wrong oil - use the 0 weight oil! I let a quick oil change talk me into 5W20 one time and it cost me 5 mpg+ until I had the oil changed again.
2. Wind and rain - these can really hit you, more than I would have expected.
3. Excessive use of brakes or hard acceleration.
4. Hot weather when the a/c runs hard
5. The defroster only works when the gas engine is running so if conditions require the defroster, city mileage will take a pretty hard hit.

Of course, even on a bad day I'll usually get about 45 mpg!

btw, if you look around on the net you'll find some ubergeek hybrid forums with people who are so careful in the way they drive their hybrid that they get 20% better than EPA. If you're not getting good mileage with it, look in the mirror for the reason in most cases.

One last rant, hybrids are not all Prius! It's a great car but when I looked at things the Civic was almost as efficient and cost $10k less so it was a pretty easy decision. I was also able to get a Civic on demand vs. a waiting list for the Prius. I've learned more since then and it seems that Civics rated mileage is closer to real world than Prius as well.



Where are all of my respected members going?
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1709 times:

I have a 01 Prius, I get 52 mph in the winter, and then the Arizona summer comes and that means the a/c is on and the mileage drops to 48. Still not bad, now has over 80,000 and one power pack later..

User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1702 times:

Quoting AirCop (Reply 4):
I get 52 mph in the winter, and then the Arizona summer comes and that means the a/c is on and the mileage drops to 48.

Should have bought a diesel.


User currently offlineCptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1695 times:

AirCop; out of curiosity, what does a power pack cost for your Prius and what exactly does the R&R entail (your Rep4)? Thanks...jack


all best; jack
User currently offlineMigfan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1689 times:

Sounds like a lot of comprimise. I do not get as much, but my diesel gets 28mpg. 2001 F-250 4x4.

/M


User currently offlineBHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1669 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 5):
Should have bought a diesel.

Unfortunately, it's not much of an option in the states. The only two that come to mind are Mercedes(expensive!) and VW(POS).



Where are all of my respected members going?
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8701 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1663 times:

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 8):
VW(POS)

Maybe you should actually check them out before insulting them.  Wink I know quite a few people who would buy their "pieces of shit", as you put it, for a second time in a heartbeat.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1642 times:

Quoting Migfan (Reply 7):
but my diesel gets 28mpg. 2001 F-250 4x4

And my 2002 does about the same . . .

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
I love to see that they acknowledge that the cars batteries loose efficency below 32 degrees.

Every battery I've ever dealt with loses something below a certain temperature . . . they'll have to solve this problem before Hybrids will ever be mildly accepted up here.


User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1634 times:

Quoting Migfan (Reply 7):
I do not get as much, but my diesel gets 28mpg. 2001 F-250 4x4.

Is that city or highway? My dad's thinking about gettin an '03-'05 250 to replace our '97 150 and that seems like a decent number as I get about 28 highway in my '96 lumina with a 3.1L V6....



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1623 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
Every battery I've ever dealt with loses something below a certain temperature . . . they'll have to solve this problem before Hybrids will ever be mildly accepted up here.

True. I bet that the next accessory will be a "block heater" type of design for the battery casing for those really cold environments.


User currently offlineDuff44 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1723 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1614 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
they'll have to solve this problem before Hybrids will ever be mildly accepted up here

That, reducing the price, and for the more performance-oriented like myself, weight.

I personally think that the future is going to be burning something different than gasoline or diesel (ethanol, bio-ethanol, bio-diesel, CNG, LPG, etc) because the basic 4-cycle archtecture of that system is already 'perfected'.



I'll rassle ya for a bowl of bacon!
User currently offlineGilligan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1614 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 2):
Working just fine here in South Texas.



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 3):
I've put 60,000+ miles on a Civic Hybrid and get very close to EPA mileage. I'd probably do better but I tend to drive 75 mph+ when possible.

Are you using your gas savings to pay for the new power pack that is coming?

Quoting AirCop (Reply 4):
one power pack later..

How much did that power pack cost? I've seen and read where that only can cost up to 5 thousand or more and the sales people don't go out of their way to explain that to shoppers. Seems to me that if that is true then the value of saving the gas puts you in a robbing Peter to pay Paul situation.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1608 times:

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 14):
How much did that power pack cost?

The power pack failed at 71,000 miles, it was covered 100% by Toyota. Cost of a new unit is currently $4,000 according to the service manager, plus they covered the rental for nearly two weeks while they waited to get an new pack in. The power pack is covered by warranty for 100,000 and again the service manager stated that Toyota will cover beyond that on a case by case basis. Apparently the want the information for their research.


User currently offlineMrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 927 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1608 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 9):
Maybe you should actually check them out before insulting them. Wink I know quite a few people who would buy their "pieces of shit", as you put it, for a second time in a heartbeat.

He's right...for the last two generations, the TDI VWs have been the diamonds in the pigs***, for lack of a better way of putting it.

And as for hybrid cars, there are a few unanswered/ignored questions that I have:

1) How much more pollution results from the manufacture of these cars? Batteries and other electrical components aren't easy or clean to make by any means.

2) When hybrids reach the end of their life cycle, will they be as easy to recycle as a conventional car?

3) Why do hybrid drivers act as smugly as they do? It's not like they're making a gigantic improvement in their fuel consumption, unless they traded in a Hummer H1...



Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
User currently offlineAC773 From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 1730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1599 times:

Quoting Aloges (Reply 9):
Maybe you should actually check them out before insulting them. Wink I know quite a few people who would buy their "pieces of shit", as you put it, for a second time in a heartbeat.

Now you say that, but the VWs that we get are not the same as yours. Yours are put together in Europe, while ours hail from Mexico. Not to mention that our Golf is still a generation behind yours.

BTW if anyone happens to know what on earth VWs problem was that they couldn't get us the Mk5 in due time, let me know. I'd love to know.

-AC773



Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
User currently offlineGilligan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1587 times:

Quoting AirCop (Reply 15):
The power pack failed at 71,000 miles, it was covered 100% by Toyota.

Sounds suspiciously like a Chrysler product. Warrantied for 100k and dying at 71K. It doesn't say K car on your vehicle anywhere does it.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 15):
Cost of a new unit is currently $4,000 according to the service manager, plus they covered the rental for nearly two weeks while they waited to get an new pack in.

It was good of them to pick up the tab but considering they probably tacked that cost on the front end of the car what are they really losing? 2 weeks seems like a long time to have to wait considering they know that this is something that is going to happen. What happens when they are being bought en mass? Will the wait get even longer? Still not worth the trouble in IMO but hope you enjoy the vehicle.


User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1578 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 5):
Should have bought a diesel.

Can you even name a diesel vehicle of similar size and cost that can get better mileage and is sold at hundreds of dealerships in the US?

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 12):
True. I bet that the next accessory will be a "block heater" type of design for the battery casing for those really cold environments.

The battery makes its own heat; it might just need a simple insulation pack around it.

Quoting Duff44 (Reply 13):
That, reducing the price, and for the more performance-oriented like myself, weight.

Economical efficiency and enhanced performance are mutually exclusive requirements, as recent hybrid screw-ups by both Honda (Accord Hybrid) and Toyota (RX Hybrid) have unequivocally shown us.


Quoting Gilligan (Reply 14):
Are you using your gas savings to pay for the new power pack that is coming?

What an appropriate username for a cheap-shot comment like that. The battery is already covered for as long as I currently plan to own the car and the life of the battery is expected to last 10-12 years.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 14):
How much did that power pack cost? I've seen and read where that only can cost up to 5 thousand or more and the sales people don't go out of their way to explain that to shoppers.

The price of the battery isn't terribly important until the warranties start running out, and it's unlikely even the first models sold have hit that point yet. By then the price of replacement batteries will hopefully have dropped some.

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 14):
Seems to me that if that is true then the value of saving the gas puts you in a robbing Peter to pay Paul situation.

If you're already scraping nickels together to buy gas, then a hybrid vehicle probably isn't for you. Otherwise, you can probably afford it without any issue and the more gas goes up the quicker you make your money back. When I first bought my hybrid it was going to take well over 6 years to make my money back, then it was over 5 years, then it was over 4 years and now it's a little over 3 years. At this rate I'll have made all my money back sometime this year with many years left of useful service. You just can't beat that.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 16):
1) How much more pollution results from the manufacture of these cars? Batteries and other electrical components aren't easy or clean to make by any means.

I don't currently have a specific answer for this, but none of the environmental groups I watch has issued any warning about this. Since the manufacturing process is probably considered a 'trade secret' by law, we may never know everything about it unless Honda or Toyota voluntarily release everything they know.



Quoting MrChips (Reply 16):
2) When hybrids reach the end of their life cycle, will they be as easy to recycle as a conventional car?

It just occurred to me that if you were truly concerned about the environment you'd probably have already researched this years ago instead of presenting it as a potential reason to be suspicious of hybrids now. However, for the benefit of people who simply don't know, here's the answer...

How often do hybrid batteries need replacing? Is replacement expensive and disposal an environmental problem?

The hybrid battery packs are designed to last for the lifetime of the vehicle, somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles, probably a whole lot longer. The warranty covers the batteries for between eight and ten years, depending on the car maker. Hybrids use NiMH batteries, not the environmentally problematic rechargeable nickel cadmium. "Nickel metal hydride batteries are benign. They can be fully recycled," says Ron Cogan, editor of the Green Car Journal. Toyota and Honda say that they will recycle dead batteries and that disposal will pose no toxic hazards. Toyota puts a phone number on each battery, and they pay a $200 "bounty" for each battery to help ensure that it will be properly recycled. There's no definitive word on replacement costs because they are almost never replaced. According to Toyota, since the Prius first went on sale in 2000, they have not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.


If you want to learn more, you can start by following this link: http://www.hybridcars.com/faq.html

Quoting MrChips (Reply 16):
3) Why do hybrid drivers act as smugly as they do? It's not like they're making a gigantic improvement in their fuel consumption, unless they traded in a Hummer H1...

My take on this is...

America has slowly but continually become an almost blindly materialistic society that routinely rewards conspicuous consumption and yet almost completely ignores ethical considerations. Since there are surprisingly few choices for those who do factor ethics into their purchases, people who buck the trend and do what they can feel that they have already done more than most, and rightly so. The day America stops whining about the cost of gas and actually sacrifices a bit of our mobility for the good of all is the day that hybrid owners will take breather and stop looking at some drivers with contempt.



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineMigfan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1576 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 11):
Is that city or highway? My dad's thinking about gettin an '03-'05 250 to replace our '97 150 and that seems like a decent number as I get about 28 highway in my '96 lumina with a 3.1L V6....

I do mostly highway without a hitch. Make sure you get a diesel, and not gas. A gas V8, V10 probably gets 10-14mpg. The vehicle weighs in at 7000lbs, twice as much as a hybrid, and it is much more functional. If someone hits me in the truck, I'll be alright. Who knows what will happen if I got hit in a Prius/Civic.

/M


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1568 times:

Quoting MrChips (Reply 16):
1) How much more pollution results from the manufacture of these cars? Batteries and other electrical components aren't easy or clean to make by any means.

That is a concern of mine also. The heavy metals that are in those batteries have to end up someplace. Apparently there is a recycling program, but that is only if you turn it in. And from all the abandoned cars I have seen in gravel pits, not all do.

Also another concern is all the extra wiring in the cars and the risk those high power lines pose to firecrews cutting into a car in the case of an accident. Every firetruck should have a copy of a manual that shows where all the key lines are in them, but still you know that some poor guy is going to get zapped at some point trying to effect a rescue.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1568 times:

Quoting Gilligan (Reply 18):
Sounds suspiciously like a Chrysler product. Warrantied for 100k and dying at 71K. It doesn't say K car on your vehicle anywhere does it.

Now you've gone and insulted Superfly. Way to go!



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1546 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 19):
Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 12):
True. I bet that the next accessory will be a "block heater" type of design for the battery casing for those really cold environments.

The battery makes its own heat; it might just need a simple insulation pack around it.

But that battery won't make it's own anything sitting in a garage or out in your driveway at -50F . . . . even overnight . . . . welcome to Alaska.

Thusly, they are not quite so popular here . . . even warming the battery with a commercial battery blanket installed under the hood doesn't always do the trick. And we're not talking about a single 12 volt style battery here, right . . . we're talking about a LOT of battery. it's going to need a damn big blanket and pull a lot of juice to even keep it above freezing while it's sits there.

Nope, SATX, they just ain't gonna make it here . . . . Texas - where you can cook an egg on your driveway . . . sure. Not here, not until they solve the problem.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1543 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 23):
And we're not talking about a single 12 volt style battery here, right . . . we're talking about a LOT of battery. it's going to need a damn big blanket and pull a lot of juice to even keep it above freezing while it's sits there.

When I worked for AS in 1994 they had two pushback tugs that where electric. They had to be parked inside in winter otherwise the batteries would freeze.

All the diesel ones just needed to be pluged into a 110 outlet to power the heat pump.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
25 ANCFlyer : Exactly the reason every vehicle on the North Slope runs 24/7 from October to May. Either that or you have several tons of monument on your hands unt
26 UALPHLCS : Just gotta tell this quick story. My wife works with a woman who owns a hybrid. She waited a long time to get her Prius. A few weeks ago and after I'd
27 Jamesag96 : My mother loves her Passat diesel and is getting high 30's in the city and near 50 on the highway. My take on hybrids is until they become more cost e
28 BHMBAGLOCK : I have. I can't count the friends and family members who've regretted buying VWs over the last 25 years. At one point they were fine vehicles but the
29 DfwRevolution : Forget Alaska. There's only 650,000 people in Alaska. There are 5.2 million people in Houston, 5.7 million people in DFW, 9.4 million people in Chica
30 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Thank you, will you please explain that to the Bunny Hugging, Tree Hugging, Save the Fuckin' World Enviro-Nut Jobs . . . Correct, in that we have (re
31 Molykote : Make any car lighter and this "theory" is pretty much shot to hell.
32 SATX : Look, everyone knows I'll take all comers when it involves debating issues important to me, but you'll need to do a better job than this if you expec
33 Post contains links Molykote : My comments were not confined to hybrid technology. The grander point is that the goals of "economic efficiency" and "performance" are not always at
34 MigFan : You honestly mean to tell me that in the hybrid, hit by that same truck, you are safer? I just don't buy it, logic flaw or not. The math just does no
35 KaiGywer : Which begs the question. How hard is importing a car to the US?
36 Boeing Nut : Here's my take on the Hybrid "thing". If you are out to get one "just because", then to me, that is no different than buying a Hummer. You getting it
37 MigFan : Is there an additional maintenance overhead on owning a hybrid? The car does not strike me as something that can be taken to "Joe's Garage". I love th
38 777236ER : VW Golf, Jetta (Passat) and Beetle. I bet all are cheaper than a Prius, the Golf is a similar size and the Passat is bigger.
39 DeltaDC9 : Add to that: Tire pressure, acceleration on a uphill grade, carrying unneeded weight, fuel filter needing changed, air filter needing changed, bad PC
40 Mham001 : As these hybrids age, it will be interesting to see the hit they take at resale. I hear a lot of Prius owners glibly saying they will just sell their
41 Mir : Diesels aren't very popular in the US, some states have in fact banned them. I think the difference is in the fuel - European diesel is a lot cleaner
42 DeltaDC9 : That will change very soon Yes, sadly, it applies to most of the VWs sold in America. More every year. Every new model introduction includes "Made in
43 DrDeke : Even if they didn't make a gigantic reduction in their fuel consumption, hybrid engined cars generally produce a LOT less harmful pollution than a no
44 Post contains images DfwRevolution : Don't take it personally ! Haha.. well I'm a Mac user myself, I'm an economy car driver myself, I just don't see why people are so proud of themselve
45 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Yeah, but if a Prius (or Corolla, or Taurus, or Fiat, or Neon, or Crown Vic, or . . . . ) hit me in the side, I'll know it, but I'll make a solid bet
46 Mham001 : Thats not necessarily true. The San Jose Mercury News looked at that and found 20 cars that burned cleaner than the Prius, and that was almost two ye
47 BHMBAGLOCK : Actually there's not much special about working on them at all unless something goes bad in the high voltage electric system. Wal-Mart has even start
48 Post contains images AC773 : Yes, I was wrong on that. Their Mexico factory produces the Golf, GTI, Jetta, and New Beetle. It's a process that's very long and very hard. Anyway,
49 Post contains links SATX : You have got to be kidding me. There is a huge difference. Even the worst hybrid snob still benefits everyone else by reducing fossil fuel consumptio
50 Corey07850 : I know it's a different use, but at TEB we have a few Escape Hybrids and with all the irregular driving on the airfield we do, we get 21-22mpg... not
51 MrChips : OK. 2005 VW Jetta GLS TDI 5-speed manual City - 38 mpg Highway - 46 mpg Combined - 41 mpg Fuel Cost per year - $1061 Kelley Blue Book Suggested Retai
52 BHMBAGLOCK : I paid less than $20,000 new for my Civic Hybrid. It also does about 5 mpg better than the Jetta. As the first owner I also got a $2000 tax deduction
53 SATX : Here was the original question... Your response gets significantly WORSE mileage. Your response is a significantly SMALLER car (compact vs. midsize).
54 Boeing Nut : I meant that from a "status" point of view. I should have given numbers. I was referring to cars that average +/- 30 mpg. Agreed. That is where the H
55 DeltaDC9 : Exactly, total cost of ownership is very important, something this next poster doesn't seem to grasp. Add to that the fact that the EPA numbers are n
56 SATX : And yet the size of the car and the type of the transmission are apparently insignificant? Please. A bigger difference? Why? Because the EPA numbers
57 DeltaDC9 : Then why did they admit their process is flawed and that it will change soon? Wrong, the smaller the engine, the more flawed the numbers are. That is
58 MigFan : I am also a Mac user, but I do not drive the economy car. People are usually proud of their vehicle. I love my truck, irregardless of what others thi
59 SATX : Flawed = imperfect Bogus = fake, useless Which term did you originally choose and which term is actually accurate? If they were "bogus", as you claim
60 MigFan : Funny, hybrid or not. You will still pay 3.00 per gallon. it seems like some folks forget that... /M
61 BHMBAGLOCK : It's also worth noting that the reported numbers on the sticker are not the actual test results under these idealized conditions. The test results ar
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