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Doublespeak: When Rhetoric Goes Horribly Wrong  
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1275 times:

Remember when World War II was called, "World Peace II"? Or when guns were renamed, "peace promotion devices"?

Yeah, me neither.

However, in my humble opinion, doublespeak reigns supreme in a world in which, upon news that a single state judge struck down the decision of a supermajority of voters, a spokesman for a political interest group can be heard to say, "It's a victory for voters."

(Excerpt)

Quote:
"It's a victory for voters," said Jack Senterfitt, who challenged the amendment on behalf of the gay rights group Lambda Legal. "It protects the right of voters to make independent decisions on each independent issue."

Likewise, perhaps he'd agree that the Supreme Court decision in Bush v. Gore was also a victory for voters, or even Democrats, since the Court protected the right of voters -- and Democrats -- to be in the minority. As one may recall, the Court's ruling had the effect of stopping recounts of ballots in Florida.

War is peace! Love is hate! Victory is defeat! And vice versa.

Or not.

See:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060517/...;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MjBwMWtkBHNlYwM3MTg-

[Edited 2006-05-17 13:12:25]

11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1245 times:

And the point is???



Filler Filler


User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1233 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):

Just Curious,

Do you have a random topic gnereator? Canned text for replies?


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1222 times:

Ohhhhhhhhh... My freakin' skull..............Make it stop!

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1203 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Likewise, perhaps he'd agree that the Supreme Court decision in Bush v. Gore was also a victory for voters, or even Democrats, since the Court protected the right of voters -- and Democrats -- to be in the minority.

If you actually understood the issue at hand, you'd realize this wasn't rhetoric at all. It was "can there be more than one issue on the ballot", which clearly there cannot be, according to Georgia law.

So yes, this was a victory for voters, since it upheld state law, and prevents flawed ballot issues from becoming law.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1193 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
As one may recall, the Court's ruling had the effect of stopping recounts of ballots in Florida.

But you conveniently leave out the fact that numerous news organizations did manual recounts themselves proving Dubya won Florida thus winning the Electoral votes and ultimately the Presidency. If you don't like the Electoral College system then work to change it but get your facts straight.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
War is peace! Love is hate! Victory is defeat! And vice versa.

Welcome to 1984! Since the article is about Georgia you should know we don't call it the Atlanta City Jail anymore. We call it the Atlanta Pre-Trial Detention Center on the off chance we might offend an "alleged" criminal being held.

A victory for voters? I don't know. Personally I think we are smart enough the handle a ballot issue that involves a double question but for now the Georgia Constitution says we can't. The issue will be revisited and rephrased and it will end up right back on the ballot, maybe not in this election (I don't know the deadline to get stuff on the ballot) but it will return.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineViv From Ireland, joined May 2005, 3142 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 1185 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Yeah, me neither.

Don't you mean "No, me neither"?



Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1144 times:

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 2):
Do you have a random topic gnereator?

I have a patent on it, too. And don't you forget it.

 

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
f you actually understood the issue at hand, you'd realize this wasn't rhetoric at all. It was "can there be more than one issue on the ballot", which clearly there cannot be, according to Georgia law.

No, it's rhetoric. Basically the argument is just a pretext, in my view. The guy's a lobbyist, fer cryin' out loud. As I see it, if he were honest about it, he would admit that he used this argument in a successful attempt to strike down the vote so that his group could achieve his motives. It's not so much a victory for voters as it is a victory for his special interest.

Upon the same premise, guns are "peace promotion devices" and "World Peace II" made the world safe from Hitler.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):
But you conveniently leave out the fact that numerous news organizations did manual recounts themselves proving Dubya won Florida thus winning the Electoral votes and ultimately the Presidency. If you don't like the Electoral College system then work to change it but get your facts straight.

No, I don't disagree. But I don't think that most Democrats would say that voters benefited from the decision except in an ancillary manner; the resolution of the case had the effect of preventing the counting of votes, and this in itself is used by most Democrats to justify criticism of the Supreme Court decision on the basis that it made the President's election less legitimate. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, some of these Democrats would be hard-pressed to defend the same argument on principle if they agree that the Georgia court's decision promoted the rights of voters.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):
A victory for voters? I don't know. Personally I think we are smart enough the handle a ballot issue that involves a double question but for now the Georgia Constitution says we can't. The issue will be revisited and rephrased and it will end up right back on the ballot, maybe not in this election (I don't know the deadline to get stuff on the ballot) but it will return.

One of the reasons that there is so much voter apathy is that courts feel quite free to strike down referenda in this rather cavalier manner. Why bother voting when one's vote can be so easily reversed by a single judge?

Quoting Viv (Reply 6):
Don't you mean "No, me neither"?

That works, too.

[Edited 2006-05-17 23:56:43]

User currently offlineBobster2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1137 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
War is peace!

Reminds me of the incredible Tim Buckley song, "Goodbye and Hello".

The vaudeville generals cavort on the stage
And shatter their audience with submachine guns
And Freedom and Violence the acrobat clowns
Do a balancing act on the graves of our sons
While the tapdancing Emperor sings "War is peace"
And Love the Magician disappears in the fun
And I wave goodbye to murder
And smile hello to the rain


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1133 times:

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 8):
"While the tapdancing Emperor sings 'War is peace'"

Sounds like my kind of song -- social criticism at its most trenchant.  Smile


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1114 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
The guy's a lobbyist, fer cryin' out loud.

So he's a trial lawyer, or a mouthpiece, or both? Do we know?

The article:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
Jack Senterfitt, who challenged the amendment on behalf of the gay rights group Lambda Legal.

Your words:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
a spokesman for a political interest group can be heard to say



Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 7):
It's not so much a victory for voters as it is a victory for his special interest.

The ACLU was a plaintiff too. Which special interest did they represent?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1114 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):
The ACLU was a plaintiff too. Which special interest did they represent?

I could guess, but I won't. As for Mr. Senterfitt, he's obviously a spokesman for the group identified. Possibly its lawyer, as well.


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