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Patriotism: How Important?  
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1693 times:

How important is patriotism to you? And how important do you think that patriotism should be to the average citizen?

To me, patriotism is very important. But, although I think that everyone in America should be patriotic, part of being a free society means that those citizens who aren't patriotic should be free to exercise that prerogative.

Agree or disagree?

Thanks in advance for your answers.  

[Edited 2006-05-18 23:12:22]

67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1681 times:

The nation-state these days is an entirely artificial construct left over from the 19th century days of empire, when lines drawn on maps had greater relevance than cultural or linguistic homogeneity, and when people rarely travelled further from home than a days ride on horseback. Globalisation has already sounded the death-knell of anything resembling "countries" or "borders" - with this in mind, patriotism and nationalism (these days, virtually indistinguishable) are at best merely self-indulgent nostalgia, and at worst a source of pedagogic mischief-making.

[Edited 2006-05-18 23:22:19]

User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1681 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 1):
Globalisation has already sounded the death-knell of anything resembling "countries" or "borders" - with this in mind, patriotism and nationalism (these days, virtually indistinguishable) are at best merely self-indulgent nostalgia, and at worst a source of pedagogic mischief-making.

Interesting comments!  Smile But do you think that this is realistic, given the mania shown in international contests in favor of specific national teams?

Also, do you extend this reasoning to apply to loyalty to larger groups, such as the EU, or smaller ones, such as one's alumni association? Thanks.  Smile


User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7643 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1669 times:

I think that Patriotism is very important. Everyone should be proud of where they live or are from. However, I do find that some people do take it to extemes when I find it becomes arrogant.


A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1669 times:

Patriotism means different things to different people.

To some it means screaming and shouting and shoving the stars and stripes in your face.

To me it means the happiness I experience when I arrive in the US after a trip abroad and the guy who stamps my passport says "Welcome home." It doesn't matter where I'm coming from. Its that experience of coming home and seeing those enormous flags hanging on the walls of the airport and all the other silly little things that you re-experience again that bring out my own version of patriotic feelings.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1669 times:

Oh, sports. Sports enthusiasm is nothing to with patriotism, it's an excuse for getting drunk, celebrating the ability of 11 complete strangers to perform some arbitrary athletic task well with the capabilities of most 5 year olds, in the mass delusion that said performance somehow confers a kind of vicarious glory on persons having the same nationality. Frankly, it baffles me.

User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1658 times:

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 3):
Everyone should be proud of where they live or are from. However, I do find that some people do take it to extemes when I find it becomes arrogant.

Agreed.  

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 4):
To me it means the happiness I experience when I arrive in the US after a trip abroad and the guy who stamps my passport says "Welcome home." It doesn't matter where I'm coming from. Its that experience of coming home and seeing those enormous flags hanging on the walls of the airport and all the other silly little things that you re-experience again that bring out my own version of patriotic feelings.

I've noticed that some of your postings tend toward the liberal side, if I may be so bold.   Do you resent it when yahoos on the right criticize the patriotism of liberals on the airwaves? I do, because I know that liberals are often as patriotic as conservatives.  

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 5):
Sports enthusiasm is nothing to with patriotism, it's an excuse for getting drunk, celebrating the ability of 11 complete strangers to perform some arbitrary athletic task well with the capabilities of most 5 year olds, in the mass delusion that said performance somehow confers a kind of vicarious glory on persons having the same nationality. Frankly, it baffles me.

Maybe that's part of the strangeness of patriotism, though, and it may not be limited to sports. Might it not be a groupthink thing? Or, in its most virulent form, an aspect of a protean mob mentality?

[Edited 2006-05-18 23:26:25]

User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1658 times:

Patriotism just seems to cause more conflicts and destruction from my point of view. I can't see much of anything positive coming from it.


Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1654 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 7):
Patriotism just seems to cause more conflicts and destruction from my point of view. I can't see much of anything positive coming from it.

Do you think that people who fought against Nazis and Communists were truly patriotic? What about humanitarians who fought in that war, in the name of humanity? Would you say that their motives were commendable, but classifiable as other than patriotic in nature?


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1646 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 6):

Maybe that's part of the strangeness of patriotism, though, and it may not be limited to sports. Might it not be a groupthink thing? Or, in its most virulent form, an aspect of a protean mob mentality?


I would agree with the notion that patriotism is entirely externally induced, and so could be considered "groupthink" - picture the mania for flags and yellow ribbons on cars in the U.S. - I find it hard to believe that all 50 million or so drivers with flags/yellow ribbons on their cars, individually and as the result of no external influence, decided off their own bats to express their solidarity in that manner.

Europe suffered 600-700 years of brutal pointless vicious bloody warfare, culminating in the biggest blood-letting in human history, WW2, all as a result of nationalism, which is patriotism big ugly elder brother. Small wonder then that most Europeans look with undisguised horror on demonstrations of overt patriotism.


User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3509 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1638 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 1):
The nation-state these days is an entirely artificial construct left over from the 19th century days of empire, when lines drawn on maps had greater relevance than cultural or linguistic homogeneity, and when people rarely travelled further from home than a days ride on horseback. Globalisation has already sounded the death-knell of anything resembling "countries" or "borders" - with this in mind, patriotism and nationalism (these days, virtually indistinguishable) are at best merely self-indulgent nostalgia, and at worst a source of pedagogic mischief-making.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6912 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1629 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 1):
The nation-state these days is an entirely artificial construct left over from the 19th century days of empire, when lines drawn on maps had greater relevance than cultural or linguistic homogeneity, and when people rarely travelled further from home than a days ride on horseback. Globalisation has already sounded the death-knell of anything resembling "countries" or "borders" - with this in mind, patriotism and nationalism (these days, virtually indistinguishable) are at best merely self-indulgent nostalgia, and at worst a source of pedagogic mischief-making.

Spoken like a true one-worlder. Sorry you feel the need to ridicule those who believe a nation can be comprised of people united by IDEALS.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1627 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 11):
Spoken like a true one-worlder. Sorry you feel the need to ridicule those who believe a nation can be comprised of people united by IDEALS.

Surely any "ideal" worthy of the name would have such universal appeal as not to require anything as intrinsically limiting and introspective as a "nation" to cherish it. Real ideals have a global appeal, they don't NEED nations.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21801 posts, RR: 55
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1627 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
To me, patriotism is very important. But, although I think that everyone in America should be patriotic, part of being a free society means that those citizens who aren't patriotic should be free to exercise that prerogative.

Agree or disagree?

Patriotism's definition has been twisted around so much lately that it's difficult for me to agree or disagree with this.

Here's how I feel about it:

If patriotism is to identify your home country as such (pretty much what Jaysit described), and be proud of where you are from, then I have no problem with it.

If patriotism is to be proud of where you are from, and making sure that everyone around you knows it (as well as letting them know that where they are from doesn't compare to where you are from), then I think that's something the world would be better off without.

If patriotism is to never question your leaders, then I could never support it. If patriotism is to always question your leaders, I couldn't support it either. Blind following of orders is not patriotic, nor is dissent solely for the sake of dissent.

I don't believe in "I'm more patriotic than you" contests, nor do I believe that putting a sticker on my car makes me any more patriotic than not putting it on. Consumer patriotism disgusts me.

So there's your answer, basically. I've been to many cities in several countries over my short time on this Earth. Some of them I have enjoyed immensely, and some of them I've wanted to live in some day. But no matter where I end up, one place will always have a certain spot in my heart. And that's patriotic enough for me.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
If patriotism is to identify your home country as such (pretty much what Jaysit described), and be proud of where you are from, then I have no problem with it.

This is an odd concept. By what right can one be proud of where one was born ? This is merely an accident of biology, and not something for which one can take any credit whatsover. Certainly you can like where you were born, and be happy that you were born there, but proud ? Unless you actually built the hospital yourself, that's going a bit far.


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6912 posts, RR: 34
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
Surely any "ideal" worthy of the name would have such universal appeal as not to require anything as intrinsically limiting and introspective as a "nation" to cherish it. Real ideals have a global appeal, they don't NEED nations.

Yes, they do.

Just as all human being are different, so are people's comprehension of, willingness to accept and sacrifice for, and sustain said ideals. Not all men believe in forming social compacts in which the individual comes first, and is bound by ideals. Some believe in organizing under religious or spiritual ideals, others by a strong government that robs a person of individual liberty. Others yet have a singular dictator, some benevolent, others not so much.

But if a "worthy" ideal (a subjective term if I've ever heard it) has universal appeal, you tell me what it would be. Because mankind hasn't found one yet.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1615 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 4):
Patriotism means different things to different people.

 checkmark  Depends on your definition.

Quoting SATX (Reply 7):
Patriotism just seems to cause more conflicts and destruction from my point of view. I can't see much of anything positive coming from it.

See, above lies someone without the proper definition.

I posted the paragraphs below on A-Net over a year ago. It definies what I think patriotism is . . . .

Patriotism . . . . interesting concept. What does my Patriotism mean to me . . . .

My Patriotism is being proud to be American. Yes, proud. Damn proud. Lucky to have been born here; lucky to live here. I have been to all 54 US States and Territories, and 66 Foreign Countries, been shot at in a few of those countries as they have not been very friendly given my past profession. Having looked at all that I have seen in this world, I'm PROUD to be American and LUCKY to have been born American. If that makes me dangerous as someone said above, then, so be it.

My Patriotism is being able to support this country and it's democratically elected government and to equally be able to question actions of that government without fear of being jailed or killed for my actions; without fear of my family being jailed or killed for my actions.

My Patriotism is borne from many years defending the country and it's ideals and the citizens in this country, without regard for personal comfort or convenience. It was, IMHO, my duty and it was an awesome ride. It is, IMHO again, everyones duty. There are those that disagree, and I support and defend that, just as I have for my adult life. That is defending this country's ideals.

My Patriotism is to wish well on every other nation and their citizens. In turn, I hope they wish well on my country and I.

My Patriotism is to question that which I find disturbing, support that which I do not, and defend the right of others to do the same whether we agree or not.

My Patriotism is flying my US Flag on my house, on my camper, on my truck and any damn where else I see fit, and to dare anyone to deface or burn that flag. It's not fascism, it's Patriotism. I am not, as was suggested above and in another thread, weak of mind or morality, I am an American Patriot. When I go to other countries, I expect to see that country's Standard flying high. I do not think them fascist for doing so, exactly the opposite, I think them proud of their nation and their heritage. That is their Patriotism.

My Patriotism is realizing that with all good things, comes some bad. There is a line to be drawn. I must understand when issues colored as Patriotic are truly not so, that I have a Patriotic duty to raise question about those issues, lest I become no better than those involved with the issue.

My Patriotism is the love of this country. Although love is an emotional state not logical, it is possible to love a country, as it also possible to 'love' an inanimate object. It isn't physical, it's not like loving a dog or a good woman or family. It is a love of an a set of ideals. When those ideals are attacked they must be defended, whether they are attacked from within or without.


Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
Surely any "ideal" worthy of the name would have such universal appeal as not to require anything as intrinsically limiting and introspective as a "nation" to cherish it.

But that doesn't hold water my friend.

We have the ideal in this country, that women and men should share equal rights under the law . . . as relates to jobs, voting, etc. Show me that ideal in a most Muslim hard-line countries . . .

Apparently, there is something amiss with your "universal appeal" perspective.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1615 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 15):
Just as all human being are different, so are people's comprehension of, willingness to accept and sacrifice for, and sustain said ideals. Not all men believe in forming social compacts in which the individual comes first, and is bound by ideals. Some believe in organizing under religious or spiritual ideals, others by a strong government that robs a person of individual liberty. Others yet have a singular dictator, some benevolent, others not so much.

I choose respectfully to disagree. Those nations for whom you claim this inspired and noble ability to cherish and sacrifice for their "ideals" are merely those having the economic luxury of moving beyond subsistence living. Those countries organised under religious ideals or under dictatorships are mostly countries that cannot afford to take time out from scratching a living to sit in libraries scratching their beards and pondering the infinite. It is nothing to do with comprehension or sacrifice, it is to with economic wherewithall. Unfortunately for these non-idealistic countries, the "idealistic" few are very happy with the Third World just the way it is, cheap and easily exploitable, and fight tooth and nail to keep it that way. So much for "ideals".


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1611 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 16):
We have the ideal in this country, that women and men should share equal rights under the law . . . as relates to jobs, voting, etc. Show me that ideal in a most Muslim hard-line countries . . .

An ideal that has yet to be fully enacted into law, or put into practise. And how long did it take for that ideal to make it into the American psyche ? About 200 years. Hell, it took the U.S. 150 years to figure out that non-whites were actually human - nobody said universal ideas are quick, but it doesn't make them anytheless universal.


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6912 posts, RR: 34
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1606 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 17):
I choose respectfully to disagree.

Good point, but again, human nature would dictate otherwise.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1604 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 18):
An ideal that has yet to be fully enacted into law, or put into practise.

Oh, I agree, but people - I hazard to say "normal" people - believe in those ideal and strive towards them. You sure as hell won't see that in the Kingdom of Saud . . .

And the beauty of it, we're still growing and accomplishing and developing . . . and we have a long way to go. Show me that, once again, in the Kingdom of Saud . . . .


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1604 times:

Patriotism can make people stop thinking for themselves & rally behind the flag.

Realize in all conflicts the other / bad guys also were partriots blinded by the believe they had to defend their country, values, accomplishments etc. against the other evil ones.



User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4284 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1604 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
To me, patriotism is very important. But, although I think that everyone in America should be patriotic, part of being a free society means that those citizens who aren't patriotic should be free to exercise that prerogative.

Agree or disagree?

Patriotism is fine and dandy, but don't confuse patriotism with egotism, party lines, or country centered-ness (couldn't think of the correct word, so that will have to do). To me, patriotism means doing what is right for the country. It does not mean following what anybody tells you to do or shutting up when the people in power want you to shut up. It means standing up for what is right, making damn sure people know about the problem, and doing your best to find a solution. Sitting on your ass, buying an American flag, and putting a "Support our troops" sticker on your car is not patriotism, it is simply a way for people to say that their beliefs cannot be questioned because they have all this American stuff, and anybody who has that is automatically correct. And this is irregardless of party, because the same type of thing happened with Dems when Clinton was in office.

So stand up for what is right, stand up for the right for people to express themselves (even if you do not agree with them), and make sure that if you see something wrong you do something about it.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1598 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 8):
Do you think that people who fought against Nazis and Communists were truly patriotic?

I think the most patriotic people of all were the Nazis themselves. Patriotism is like faith and pride; in small doses it can make things a little better, but in large doses it can cause otherwise sane people to commit horrible acts in the name of the group with which they ally themselves.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 8):
What about humanitarians who fought in that war, in the name of humanity? Would you say that their motives were commendable, but classifiable as other than patriotic in nature?

I view humanitarians as some of the least patriotic people on earth. Human rights organizations seem to be among the most critical groups of the views and ideologies espoused by fervent patriotism.



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineRobertNL070 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2003, 4533 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1584 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 4):
To some it means screaming and shouting and shoving the stars and stripes in your face.



Quoting SATX (Reply 7):
Patriotism just seems to cause more conflicts and destruction from my point of view. I can't see much of anything positive coming from it

Interesting thoughts. However, a distinction must be made between patriotism, maybe as per ANCflyer's erudite personal definition, and jingoism - flag-waving chauvinism.

Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. Mark Twain.

Regards, Robert



Youth is a gift of nature. Age is a work of art.
25 Post contains images Jaysit : I don't resent it as much as I find it amusing. As a naturalized American myself who has had the (dubious) privilege of living in numerous countries
26 Post contains images AerospaceFan : I'm not so sure of that. I do believe that they were all voluntarily bought and displayed, so why wouldn't it be so that they express genuine beliefs
27 Mir : I didn't mean it in that sense - what I meant is basically to have no shame in saying that you are from [country x]. For instance, while the Iraq war
28 Santosdumont : Absolutely. It is the inviolable right of anti-war protesters to march on the National Mall and make all the noise they want, just as groups as varie
29 Post contains images ANCFlyer : I ahppen to think that's a damned fine tune and I wish many others in this country would take heed. Unfortunately, they're too busy driving their bas
30 Post contains images AerospaceFan : Agreed. The problem is that too many people don't care enough to vote, and particularly not in the primaries. The primaries here in California is whe
31 Basas : Absolutely agree...and I truely believe all citizens should be as patriotic as possible. While it's true we cannot force anyone to be patriotic, I wi
32 HAWK21M : To Me Partiotism is very very Important.But also taking a right desicion is equally Important. As in any Democracy there would be conflicting views.Bu
33 AerospaceFan : What's important in this respect is that one's country must try to do what is right. A principled stand on the part of one's leaders helps promotes pa
34 Post contains images Santosdumont : Oh, man....I gotta write that one down, ANC... What a wordsmith!
35 Pbottenb : Ok - I believe in the ideals of the US Constitution and I believe that they are worth sharing and have global appeal. So are you ready to have your c
36 AerospaceFan : There is a fundamental divide in the world today between those who believe that the nation-state is central to freedom, and others who think that the
37 QANTASforever : Patriotism is an extremely useful tool. Signed, Every successful politician from the 20th and 21st century.
38 Post contains images Mir : I can't stand that song. If you want a nice America-celebrating song, here's a good one: "America the Beautiful." Heck, even "God Bless America" is b
39 Post contains images We're Nuts : It's a choice between "patriotism" and my mind. I, for one, choose my mind.
40 Christeljs : It is important, however I think they take it too far in the schools in the US. Sorry!!
41 AerospaceFan : How so? More than many other countries, the U.S. is bound together by a sense of patriotism, versus race, etc.
42 Keesje : & I think that is a dangerous idea
43 Rolfen : Very, very important. See here in Lebanon we had no pure patriotism, only allegation to religious clans, and you saw what happened.
44 Post contains images Rolfen : Correction: I meant allegiance to religious clans. ( Thanks for correcting me )[Edited 2006-05-22 14:13:33]
45 Post contains images Scbriml : So, you're looking forward to the World Cup then? "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." Samuel Johnson, April 7, 1775.
46 AerospaceFan : Are you saying that patriotism is a dangerous idea?
47 Post contains images Stall :
48 ZKSUJ : I think patriotism means being proud of where you are from. I feel good about being from NZ when I see little thing such as someone wearing an NZ shir
49 Post contains images Wrighbrothers : Same here, I personally believe it's a good thing, sort of makes you proud of being British, American, Australian or whatever. But some people just t
50 Post contains images Mir : Me too. Who the hell are you, Aerospacefan, to determine what kind of patriotism is justified and what is not? Who the hell is anybody, for that matt
51 AerospaceFan : Well, it's not just me. It's the Senate, among other governmental bodies. There is an amendment receiving bipartisan support that requires that new i
52 Mir : Ok, I'll ask again. Who the hell is the Senate to determine what kind of patriotism is justified and what is not? Patriotism is a belief, and you'll
53 Kiwiandrew : While it is nice to have a pride in where you come from I always find excessive patriotism a bit unnerving - especially when it gets to the blind "my
54 AerospaceFan : Who is the Senate to determine anything? An elected body. Let's return to fundamentals. The reason that this country exists is that there was a decis
55 Rolfen : Trusting the gouvernement system is important.
56 AirPacific747 : But it is just as important that the government does everything it can to be trusted by its people
57 Mir : The Senate determines what actions are legally appropriate - nothing more. The Senate does not determine my mood today, nor do they determine my feel
58 AerospaceFan : The Congress, including the Senate, is responsible for passing laws that reflect the will of the people of the United States. If the people want to p
59 Mir : Congress is under no obligation to pass laws that reflect the will of the people of the United States, nor should they be. It's a republic, not a dem
60 AerospaceFan : I truly do not understand your reasoning. Is it your contention that representatives of the people should not, in fact, represent the people? True, b
61 Braybuddy : As Samuel Johnson said "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel". I agree with him completely. What use is it, apart from fuelling wars, footba
62 JGPH1A : Can't you tell ? It's still months away and you can't escape it, I am so bored by the entire, wholehearted and mind-numbing gormless irrelevance of i
64 Braybuddy : So there's at least three of us on here who have NO INTEREST in this World Cup? Let's start a thread!
65 Post contains images Mir : Three people NOT from the US, at that. -Mir
66 PPVRA : I am proud that my fellow countrymen, people I associate with, share the same ideals as I do- democratic ideals. Your mistake lies where you associat
67 MigFan : You just like stirring the pot, don't you?
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