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Terrorist Strike At Srinagar.  
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1503 times:

http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/may/21jk.htm
Another Wound for India.Another day of Paitence.  banghead 
regds
MEL


Think of the brighter side!
52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4868 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1480 times:

MEL,

From your previous posts, I know this particular topic always bothers you deeply. Unfortunately, even a mighty nation like the USA is vulnerable to wild-eyed terrorists, and things are only getting worse.

Even during the accession of Kashmir, Afghan warlords (they just love doing this stuff) were behind the invasion, and also implicated in the Baramulla massacre. These guys are hard to kill as they slip away in the mountains.

What are the choices? If you partition Kashmir again, perhaps things may get better, but not all Kashmiri Muslims want to join Pakistan.( Even Jinnah was dumbfounded when 1947 happened - he loved Bombay and hated the idea of moving to uncivilized Karachi ). You could also bomb the terrorist camps in 'Azad' Kashmir, but that will only lead to more bloodshed like in Israel or Srilanka, and possibly wake the sleeping dragon in the North.

My guess is that Indians are getting sick and tired of this, and want to swat this nuisance once and for all. Sometimes a good whack is the only way to get a message across to savage folk.

Cheers.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1446 times:

Quoting Comorin (Reply 1):
From your previous posts, I know this particular topic always bothers you deeply.

True.Very much bothers me.
A Democracy can't go on having Paitence.Especially when Uninvolved civilians are getting hit.
The GOI needs to take a stand & stop this Cross-Border attacks.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineTRVYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1369 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1419 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 2):
The GOI needs to take a stand & stop this Cross-Border attacks.

How? What do you suggest?
The whole kashmir thing makes me sick.
I've never fully understood it,actually what's going on there?

[Edited 2006-05-23 13:41:05]

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1399 times:

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 3):
How? What do you suggest

Strike accross the LOC on those camps.As it is the Neighbour keeps denying they exist.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4868 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1382 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 4):
Strike across the LOC on those camps.As it is the Neighbour keeps denying they exist.

Srilanka, Northern Ireland, Israel have had to fight guerrilla wars over extremely long periods of time. Eventually, the guerrillas seem to prevail (Ireland). The situation in Kashmir is different, as much of the terrorism is cross border, well-funded, and blessed by Al-Qaeda.

Striking across the LOC will be difficult now that the Neighbor has USAF AWACS patrols in the air; perhaps supersonic cruise missiles may be harder to detect. Nevertheless, if India doesn't do it, it will just be interpreted as a sign of weakness. If India does go ahead, then it will serve to unite other jihadists against India, and could lead to all-out war. After all, Delhi is only a 20-minute missile ride away from the border.

The war against terrorism in India cannot be fought by conventional forces. There has to be a systematic covert war that will undermine and root out this menace.

The other choice India has is to hold a Plebiscite in Kashmir. Unfortunately, if the majority vote to stay with India, the insurgents will be back in full force.

I think the GOI has realized that there isn't much it can do except at a covert level. It's mission now is to make sure India remains undistracted in its economic growth.

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 3):
I've never fully understood it,actually what's going on there?

I'll get you some links, but meanwhile here is the 2 minute version:

During partition, the princely states were given the choice of going with Pakistan or India. many of the states contiguous with the Sind and Punjab with Muslim minorities (and East Bengal) went with Pakistan.

Many Muslims however remained in India quite happily and India is the second largest Muslim country in the world.

In Jammu and Kashmir, the ruling Maharaja was Hindu, and chose to side with India despite a sizable Muslim population. There was some question about the authenticity of the letter of accession, and Pakistan would not accept that Kashmir was part of India. Many wars later, the situation has ended up as a long-term guerrilla war with no end.

There have been many attempts to resolve this, but the only practical solution seems to be to accept the present Line of Control (LOC) as a de facto boundary. Musharraf, appears to be more interested in finding a solution, but there are too many hard-liners in Pakistan today that he will antagonize.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1367 times:

Quoting Comorin (Reply 5):
Striking across the LOC will be difficult now that the Neighbor has USAF AWACS patrols in the air

Dont think they have them yet.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineHKA From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 148 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1361 times:

The solution is simple if the Indian Govt. wants it.

Why doesn't it hold a refrendum in Kashmir in neutral way, under UN and see if the Kashimris want independence from India.

like it was done in Quebec in Canada....


User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2175 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1353 times:

Quoting HKA (Reply 7):
Why doesn't it hold a refrendum in Kashmir in neutral way, under UN and see if the Kashimris want independence from India.

As in the case of the United States, Indian states do not have the right to secede. Kashmir though, gets special constitutionally protected autonomy, but that's as far as they'll get. Terrorism from neighbouring nations is not a basis for a referendum anyway. Kashmiris on average have a per capita income among the highest in India, but a lot of it is because of generous central assistance. What ought to receive priority is their economic integration with the rest of the country. Geography is a hurdle, but there's an epic railway line being built from Punjab that should help.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlineEmirates773ER From Pakistan, joined Jun 2005, 1448 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1349 times:

Quoting Comorin (Reply 1):
.( Even Jinnah was dumbfounded when 1947 happened - he loved Bombay and hated the idea of moving to uncivilized Karachi ).

Are you freakin kidding me? How did you even make this assumption in the first place? Jinnah made Pakistan b/c he knew the Muslims would never have the freedom and rights in India as they would have in their own seprate country, if it seems unrealistic to you then watch a documetary on the Gujrat riots.



The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
User currently offlineTRVYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1369 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1342 times:

Quoting HKA (Reply 7):
Why doesn't it hold a refrendum in Kashmir in neutral way, under UN and see if the Kashimris want independence from India.

Again, what is the problem with this approach?

Is Kashmir worth the trouble? what to gain and what to lose? opinions please, just curious.....
My views are pretty neutral on the issue as I am not personally affected by the issue. All I hope is peace in the subcontinent. What is a practical solution?

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 9):
Jinnah made Pakistan b/c he knew the Muslims would never have the freedom and rights in India as they would have in their own seprate country, if it seems unrealistic to you then watch a documetary on the Gujrat riots.

Gujurat is an exception.

But most other states are pretty good, I believe.
My state of Kerala, Christians and Muslims enjoy equal rights with Hindus, if not more Big grin


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1332 times:

Quoting Comorin (Reply 5):

The other choice India has is to hold a Plebiscite in Kashmir. Unfortunately, if the majority vote to stay with India, the insurgents will be back in full force.

if anything, most will vote to become an independent state from both Pakistan and India..and neither Pakistan nor India doesn't want that...that being said, if it had to be done this way, Pakistan would still get the "upper hand"...

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 9):

Are you freakin kidding me? How did you even make this assumption in the first place? Jinnah made Pakistan b/c he knew the Muslims would never have the freedom and rights in India as they would have in their own seprate country, if it seems unrealistic to you then watch a documetary on the Gujrat riots.

 checkmark ....absolutely...while its always "big news" when Muslim "terrorist" fight, yet its never big news when thousands of Muslims get killed.....

THOUSANDS of Muslims werewhole-heartedly SLAUGHTERED by hindu fanatics, and it turned out (by the Indian Supreme Court Investigation) that the train caught on fire due to an accident....!!!

of course, where is the justice for the thousands of Muslims slaughtered and burned alive? NONE....flippin' NONE!!

and the Indian Governement ALLOWED it to happen, they had the power to stop it, yet did NOTHING...


and what about this? this is ok?  sarcastic 
" India 'will halt Kashmir abuses'"

"Indian PM Manmohan Singh has said specific steps will be taken to stop human rights violations by his security forces in Indian-administered Kashmir.

so some people here should keep their gob shut...because the hypocricy here is disgusting yuck 

Comorin, here is a link which should help...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Nation_Theory

Jinnah believed in the "Two Nation Theory" hole-heartedly.......

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 10):
My views are pretty neutral on the issue as I am not personally affected by the issue. All I hope is peace in the subcontinent. What is a practical solution?

well..the practical solution would be for letting the people decide...

from the link provided below, it seems as if the India is basically opposed to all seven scenerios...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/h...03/kashmir_future/html/default.stm



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1745 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1324 times:

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 9):
Muslims would never have the freedom and rights in India as they would have in their own seprate country, if it seems unrealistic to you then watch a documetary on the Gujrat riots.



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 11):
THOUSANDS of Muslims werewhole-heartedly SLAUGHTERED by hindu fanatics, and it turned out (by the Indian Supreme Court Investigation) that the train caught on fire due to an accident....!!!

As a neutral who has spent sometime in both these countries I'll add my Euro 2.
First, all this talk of muslims suffering more than the others in India is completely untrue. Sure, there are some riots and chaps get killed, but India is the only country I know which has had three muslim presidents, a whole host of muslim ministers in the government, several muslim sportspersons hogging national media news (hey, sania mirza is a real babe), and tons of important muslims in public life , all the while having a majority hindu population. As for its minority record, the prime minister of India is a sikh, and sikhs are a hopeless minority in India, and there are millions of christians doing very well out there. Given all this I can only say that India treats its minorities so well that even us Europeans can take a leaf out of its book. It is indeed strange that the strongest criticism of its record should come from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan where no non-muslim can be a leader of any kind.

As for Kashmir, I've read a lot about it, and even some of my friends in India agree that it should have been given off to Pakistan in 1947, when the two countries separated on the basis of religion. But after all these years, I doubt the Kashmiris will do better under Pakistani rule than under India's. If you ask me, they should stay with India and enjoy its booming economy rather than asking for any union with a much backward Pakistan.

No offence meant here chaps, but in all fairness I must say that the Pakistanis are a really friendly lot, even more than the Indians.



Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlineHKA From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 148 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1308 times:

DIJKKIJK:

I am not sure what exactly you mean Pakistan being much more backward than India. Agreed that India is doing well in technology but thier are still millions leaving in abject poverty, many more per capita than Pak. and there is widespread descrimnation even among Hindus, caste system etc.You should visit a slum or talk to some lower caste Hindu to get the picture.

Maybe we'll see a non-muslim president in Pak. (98% muslim population) at such a time when a muslim becomes a head of state in Germany, France, U.K. etc !!

India boasts as the biggest democracy, so let them hold a refrendum and it is better Kashmir remains independent of Pak. or India. Hopefully then, both countries would stop wasting money in buy weapons.


User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1745 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1292 times:

Quoting HKA (Reply 13):
I am not sure what exactly you mean Pakistan being much more backward than India. Agreed that India is doing well in technology but thier are still millions leaving in abject poverty, many more per capita than Pak. and there is widespread descrimnation even among Hindus, caste system etc.You should visit a slum or talk to some lower caste Hindu to get the picture.

Agreed, India has problems with millions living in poverty, and there is also discrimination, but Pakistan isn't exactly a model state in comparison , is it? and you cannot deny that India's democratic setup and booming economy is definitely a better bet for most kashmiris.

Quoting HKA (Reply 13):
it is better Kashmir remains independent of Pak. or India.

Unfortunately, it cannot. Just look at its geographical location. It is sandwiched between India, Pakistan and China, so any war between any of these chaps, and Kashmir is going to be the battle field. And apart from some beautiful mountains and lovely valleys, it has no resources to speak of and must rely on some other big country for its maintenance.



Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4868 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1286 times:

MEL, I guess we now have a hornet's nest going! You can see that Kashmir is a touchy subject for anyone on the subcontinent.

A good book about Jinnah (Jacobin777, Emirates773ER ) is "The Man who divided India", by Rafiq Zakaria, a distinguished writer and promoter of Hindu-Muslim Unity. (Jinnah spoke no Urdu, nor could he read the Holy Quran except in English).

For a more Western (though slightly anti-Indian) point of view, read Victoria Schofield's scholarly book "Kashmir in the Crossfire".

Subhash Kak, a Kashmiri scholar at LSU, has an interesting comment on the state of affairs:

How do we explain Pakistani obsession with Kashmir? It is a nation in
search of an identity. Predominantly a Punjabi state, it has failed to
develop a federal structure where the Sindhi, Baloch, and the Pathan
minorities would feel equal partners. No wonder, since its creation,
its politics has been driven by urges of self-definition in relation to
its neighbors. United primarily by its enmity for India, it has also
attempted definition as a member of the Islamic world and more recently
as an aspiring leader of the newly independent Turkic states of Central
Asia. Pakistani preoccupation with Kashmir might serve internal
political ends but it only postpones and makes more difficult the
resolution of its own basic problems


On the plebiscite issue, neither India, China or Pakistan want to see another state as a geopolitical pawn. As for the alternative, Kashmiri muslims will wonder if being subsumed in a Punjabi-dominated state is such a good idea.

There are right-thinking leaders in both India and Pakistan who can put an end to this conflict, but the same bigotry that led to the holocaust at partition is still well and alive in both places.

I do hope I haven't offended anyone on a.net - politics and religion are not good conversation topics. Smile

It's over and out for me...  wave 


User currently offlineAseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2045 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1282 times:

my final words and i won't be posting again in this thread.
"If Pakistan and the terrorists have the balls, then go and get Kashmir". No matter what excuses you give, there is no way you can justify voilence. If you do then be ready to face it yourself and then don't ask for justification".
Jai Hind!!!
VT-ASJ



ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1277 times:

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 14):
and you cannot deny that India's democratic setup and booming economy is definitely a better bet for most kashmiris.

I hope you had not just spoken based on the impression the media want you to have. Look up the figures by which the economy of the two countries expanded recently. I don't have time to say much right now or post links, but you will find these are the 2 countries second and third in the percentage of the expansion of their economies after China. Its just that I believe the name of the second one in the past year will surprise you.
I will post again regarding the rest of the highly ignorant views expressed here.

[Edited 2006-05-26 01:29:39]

User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1263 times:

Quoting Comorin (Reply 15):
. (Jinnah spoke no Urdu, nor could he read the Holy Quran except in English).

he was supposedly a "convert" to Islam (many claim he wasn't a Muslim-but that's not for me to say).....regardless, that is why he never was able to read the Quran as his upbringing never had him speak Urdu nor learn the Quran...

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 17):
I hope you had not just spoken based on the impression the media want you to have. Look up the figures by which the economy of the two countries expanded recently. I don't have time to say much right now or post links, but you will find these are the 2 countries second and third in the percentage of the expansion of their economies after China. Its just that I believe the name of the second one in the past year will surprise you.

 checkmark 

Quoting Comorin (Reply 15):

How do we explain Pakistani obsession with Kashmir? It is a nation in
search of an identity. Predominantly a Punjabi state, it has failed to
develop a federal structure where the Sindhi, Baloch, and the Pathan
minorities would feel equal partners. No wonder, since its creation,
its politics has been driven by urges of self-definition in relation to
its neighbors. United primarily by its enmity for India, it has also
attempted definition as a member of the Islamic world and more recently
as an aspiring leader of the newly independent Turkic states of Central
Asia. Pakistani preoccupation with Kashmir might serve internal
political ends but it only postpones and makes more difficult the
resolution of its own basic problems

Pakistan was a mixed country from the start and there is still internal rife within the country, but as it stands...if you looked at the BBC link I provided above..all the scenerios were either neutral to positive for Pakistan, where as they were neutral to negative for India, hence India rejecting a few of the proposals....

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 12):
First, all this talk of muslims suffering more than the others in India is completely untrue. Sure, there are some riots and chaps get killed, but India is the only country I know which has had three muslim presidents, a whole host of muslim ministers in the government, several muslim sportspersons hogging national media news (hey, sania mirza is a real babe), and tons of important muslims in public life , all the while having a majority hindu population. As for its minority record, the prime minister of India is a sikh, and sikhs are a hopeless minority in India, and there are millions of christians doing very well out there. Given all this I can only say that India treats its minorities so well that even us Europeans can take a leaf out of its book. It is indeed strange that the strongest criticism of its record should come from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan where no non-muslim can be a leader of any kind.

while its true this has happnened, there have been thousands of Muslims murdered on a mass scale every decade or less...in 1992, a very old and beautiful 16th century historical mosque (Babri Mosque)was destroyed by approximately 200,000 thousand fanatics and ultra-right nationalist groups..the dickhead LK Advani was present..in fact, he his partially responsible for the incitement..as a result of those riots, thousands of innocent Muslims were killed....

also, though Muslims are the minority, they are a strong minority...with a fairly sizeable population.

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 12):
No offence meant here chaps, but in all fairness I must say that the Pakistanis are a really friendly lot, even more than the Indians.

I agree... bigthumbsup 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineAseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2045 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1256 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):

here are a few question my Paki friends will have to answer
1. Before cursing India's secularism and democratic values, please explain what happened to all those Hindus who were left behind after partition? With Pakistan itself an theocratic state what right does it have to question otheres?

2. Rather than lamenting India's economic development, why don't you guys do something about your country. If a General at helm is what pleases you, then don't complain about otheres.

3. How would you justifty killing and displacement of Kashmiri Pandits? Or is it something that is justified by your philosophy?

4. Do you understand the meaning of the word "introspection"? If you do, then you'd be able to answer all my questions.

Good Luck
VT-ASJ



ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1255 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 4):
Strike accross the LOC on those camps.As it is the Neighbour keeps denying they exist.
regds
MEL

Pakistan can keep denying the existence of the camps (as it will), but Kashmir is a complex issue. The uneasy detente that exists right now is far better than India launching missiles or acting with a hot head. The death of 7 shouldn't result in the death of millions. And lets face the fact that the Indian military hasn't exactly been blameless in how they've handled Kashmir over the past 15 years. Nor has the Congress party that back in the '80s was largely to blame for allowing Kashmir to turn into the mess it is today. By and large militant action across the LOC has decreased over the years. Given that India and Pakistan share a huge border, and given that there are Kashmirs on the Indian side who probably share the beliefs of those on the Pakistani side, its not surprising that the borders aren't air tight. All that India can and should do is contain the situation as much as it can. In any case, the average Kashmiri Muslim is sick of the militants at this point.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 17):
I don't have time to say much right now or post links, but you will find these are the 2 countries second and third in the percentage of the expansion of their economies after China.

I don't know what you're getting at, but even if Pakistan's growth in 2005 and the first quarter of 2006 bested India's, this comes after a decline in per capita for over 10 years. In fact, 2004 was the first time that Pakistan's GDP was over 6%, and although it hit a high of 8.5% in mid 2005, India's economy grew at 8.2% in the last quarter 2005-2006 after several years of a relatively constant 5 - 7 % growth rate. So, niggling over small percentage points is pointless given that economics is not an exact science. The reality is that both countries need peace at the border for their economies to grow at the current rates or more. Currently Pakistan's PPP is about $ 2200 and India's is $ 3300.

Remember that foreign investors are still wary of investing in Pakistan, and that back in 2001 when India and Pakistan engaged in sabre rattling, foreign investors and Indian industry delivered a strong message to New Delhi to shut the f*ck up.

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 14):
Agreed, India has problems with millions living in poverty, and there is also discrimination, but Pakistan isn't exactly a model state in comparison , is it? and you cannot deny that India's democratic setup and booming economy is definitely a better bet for most kashmiris.

While, the slums of Karachi may be a bit less ghoulish than the ones in Mumbai, and while Pakistani cities in general don't look as disheveled as Indian ones, there is an insane bustle one sees in India that is not always witnessed in Pakistan. When you factor in India's press (one of the largest and freest in the world in comparison to Pakistan, the relative freedom that women have in India and their higher educational rates and achievements, and the fact that India's noisy democracy can withstand change at a faster pace than Pakistan's Islamic dictatorship, its a no brainer as to which country has the upper hand.


User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2175 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1243 times:

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 12):
As a neutral who has spent sometime in both these countries I'll add my Euro 2.
First, all this talk of muslims suffering more than the others in India is completely untrue. Sure, there are some riots and chaps get killed, but India is the only country I know which has had three muslim presidents, a whole host of muslim ministers in the government, several muslim sportspersons hogging national media news (hey, sania mirza is a real babe), and tons of important muslims in public life , all the while having a majority hindu population. As for its minority record, the prime minister of India is a sikh, and sikhs are a hopeless minority in India, and there are millions of christians doing very well out there. Given all this I can only say that India treats its minorities so well that even us Europeans can take a leaf out of its book. It is indeed strange that the strongest criticism of its record should come from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan where no non-muslim can be a leader of any kind.

As for Kashmir, I've read a lot about it, and even some of my friends in India agree that it should have been given off to Pakistan in 1947, when the two countries separated on the basis of religion. But after all these years, I doubt the Kashmiris will do better under Pakistani rule than under India's. If you ask me, they should stay with India and enjoy its booming economy rather than asking for any union with a much backward Pakistan.

No offence meant here chaps, but in all fairness I must say that the Pakistanis are a really friendly lot, even more than the Indians.

Bravo DIJKKIJK! That was an excellent post - perfectly summarizes the situation from a neutral perspective.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1234 times:

Quoting Aseem (Reply 19):
1. Before cursing India's secularism and democratic values, please explain what happened to all those Hindus who were left behind after partition? With Pakistan itself an theocratic state what right does it have to question otheres?

when the partition occured, millions of Muslims fled to Paksitan and Millions of Hindus and Sikhs moved fled to India....the area which eventually became Pakistan already had a large majority of Muslims of Punjabi, Afgahani, and Irani (Persian) descent...that is why Pakistanis from the south such as Karachi look and different and speak differently from the Pakistanis from the north..

northern Pakistanis primarily speak Punjabi, pushto, ect. and are pathanis-which are of Afghani and Persian descent, where as southern Pakistanis' speak urdu, are darker in skin colour, and are more of Indian descent.....hence the "MQM" versus "PPP" political dramas...

MQM=muhajar qaum movement-the muhajars from India
PPP= Pakistan's People's Party-from which Bhutto came from

Quoting Aseem (Reply 19):

2. Rather than lamenting India's economic development, why don't you guys do something about your country. If a General at helm is what pleases you, then don't complain about otheres.

 confused 

Quoting Aseem (Reply 19):
3. How would you justifty killing and displacement of Kashmiri Pandits? Or is it something that is justified by your philosophy?

who said its all justified? some is and some isn't..both sides seem to be bent on killing each other..my point of the argument was to show the other side of the OP..which was biased towards one side....

Quoting Aseem (Reply 19):

4. Do you understand the meaning of the word "introspection"? If you do, then you'd be able to answer all my questions.

I was obviously introspectional when I posted my comments.... sarcastic 

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 20):
The reality is that both countries need peace at the border for their economies to grow at the current rates or more. Currently Pakistan's PPP is about $ 2200 and India's is $ 3300.

 checkmark ...less fighting and more investment (as well as education) would go a long way...

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 20):
While, the slums of Karachi may be a bit less ghoulish than the ones in Mumbai, and while Pakistani cities in general don't look as disheveled as Indian ones, there is an insane bustle one sees in India that is not always witnessed in Pakistan. When you factor in India's press (one of the largest and freest in the world in comparison to Pakistan, the relative freedom that women have in India and their higher educational rates and achievements, and the fact that India's noisy democracy can withstand change at a faster pace than Pakistan's Islamic dictatorship, its a no brainer as to which country has the upper hand.

..while Pakistan's press isn't as large as India's, it certainly still has more freedom than it did during the Bhutto years......

by enlarge, I agree that India has more "freedom" than Pakistan does, however, with a 98% conservative muslim population, it really doesn't bother the general population all too much....

both sides have to work on their human rights and both sides need international investment......


at the end of they...regardless if one is Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Pakistani, Indian, etc.....most people want the same thing..........

1)happy family
2)food on the table
3)nice roof over the head
4)good job with a good income



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1230 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):
by enlarge, I agree that India has more "freedom" than Pakistan does, however, with a 98% conservative muslim population, it really doesn't bother the general population all too much....

And therein lies the problem, doesn't it?

That 98% so-called conservative Muslim population isn't monolithic - I mean they did elect a woman, albeit an idiotic and corrupt one. However, the Generals have struck a faustian pact with the most conservative of the lot (the ones who make the biggest noise). I doubt if Musharaff would want to, but he has no choice. He's the heir of General Zia's Islamo-fascism and its too late to change things radically.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1217 times:

Well The Frustration was over the regular Terrorist strikes over the Country for years now.Kashmir is one reason.But Why strike Innocent persons is the Question.Even Kids are not spared.
Obviously when it turns to Kashmir.Each side has their own reasons & rightly so.
But the question is Is Attacking Innocent Civillians Justified.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
25 AndesSMF : I second that motion. Never. Can you explain that a little more? I heard reasoning from a Pakistani once, and it was pretty good and unbiased. BTW, h
26 Jaysit : Of course, not. But civilian attacks are the raison of terrorists everywhere. That having been said, over the top retaliation isn't justified either.
27 Post contains images HAWK21M : India is doing quite well,apart from the recent market hiccup. True.I have a Friend from the Region [J&K] & his stories are amazing.Its a tough world
28 AndesSMF : Good to hear, my next door co-worker is from New Delhi. I hope there werent too many problems over the hiccup.
29 Jacobin777 : Musharaff himself is in a very partiuclar situation..he has to deal with many conflicting forces from all sides.. 1)taliban/al queda supporters in th
30 TRVYYZ : I thought they already had half of Kashmir. Correct me if I'm wrong.
31 HAWK21M : Wrong 1/3rd.Don't forget Aksai chin. regds MEL
32 TRVYYZ : That's even worse, I thought India had half, but now it seems only 1/3rd. But In my school, the map showed whole of kasmir in India. I realized the1/
33 Comorin : Looks like it's safe to jump back in this thread for a short visit. Thanks Jacobin777 for your thoughtful posts. You know, If India gave away Kashmir,
34 Aseem : Along with that country's underlying philosophy which is at stake. At the time of partition, India started off with the premise that Hindus and Musli
35 TRVYYZ : Here's one question. What do people of Kashmir think of the whole issue? For me, a guy from the south I can say it doesn't affect me but what about th
36 Post contains images HAWK21M : Open Border from LOC Only solution.Defence stays with India/Pakistan.Rest with Kaskmir. Aksai Chin should be a part too. regds MEL
37 Bravo45 : This is just as strong as the arguement gets. I was appalled to read this and decided not to reply, but this underlines the real reasons behind any r
38 Aseem : And what about rhetoric Paki media spreads? What about the complete blackout of plight of Kashmiri Pandits who ware now refugees in their own country
39 Post contains images HAWK21M : You'll be Surprised how different J&K is from POK. regds MEL
40 Post contains links Bravo45 : My impressions come first hand from those whose families are divided by the LOC and who don't respect it and cross it often for various reasons, incl
41 Bravo45 : And BTW expect the trip report when I get to go back hopefully this year (fingers crossed, I have said this in a row for almost 3 years now). In the m
42 Post contains images AGM100 : I wish you were right about that , if it were true how does the Islamic fundamentalist ideal prevail in Pakistan. The only excuse I can give them is
43 TRVYYZ : India is not Gujurat, it is a bigger country. Whatever you say may be applicable to gujurat but not all of India. I am also a from a minority religio
44 Post contains links and images Aseem : give me the opportunity to shread your post into pieces. that is because there is no militancy in PoK. And what about militant organizations like LeT
45 Aseem : the bottom line is that people of pakistan should not complaining about other people's secularism. As for us, we very well know what our shortcomings
46 Post contains links and images Bravo45 : And this is what you call shredded to pieces? Maybe if you hadn't tried to annex Kashmir by force against the will of the people and hadn't commit hu
47 Bravo45 : Okay so my statement goes beyond what this one or two incidents that I pointed out, but then is this an exuse that I was almost sure then, sure now t
48 Post contains images HAWK21M : True As for the Views on Either side......Every side believes the Demon is on the Other side until they visit. regds MEL
49 Post contains images Aseem : we tried to annex kashmir!!! who sent those afghan warlords in 1947. Maybe if you hadn't cried like a kid before British, there wouldn't have been Pa
50 Post contains images Aseem : fogot to ask,"Are you from Lahore or Karachi?". VT-ASJ
51 HAWK21M : Yesterday At Work the Debate over Striking Accross the LOC on the Training camps was a huge topic. The Locations are Known to the Indian side,only the
52 HAWK21M : Is the Fencework on the Border with Motion sensors In Place.Or is work still on. regds MEL
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