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Abbas To Hamas: Recognize Israel Within 10 Days  
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1482 times:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/25/palestinian.talks/index.html

Not quite Sadat's "I will go to the Knesset", but this is as ballsy a move as ANY Middle East leader has ever made. This guy is putting it all out on the line-including his life, I suspect. I'd give him the Nobel Peace Prize if he pulls this off.

We MAY be at a true turning point in the Middle East, whichever way this goes.

I earnestly pray to God this is a positive turning point, not another negative one.

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1463 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
This guy is putting it all out on the line-including his life, I suspect.

Even before this, there have been two foiled assasination attempts in the last month. In both instances, Israeli Intelligence warned him to cancel his appearances (which he did).


User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1451 times:

From the article: Some observers believe Hamas may reject a deal with Fatah, but not oppose a referendum, CNN's John Vause reported from Jerusalem.

"In some ways this could give Hamas an out because they've been looking for some kind of way of moderating their position while remaining true to their charter, remaining true to their platform on which they were elected," Vause said.

"They can't recognize Israel. If Hamas recognizes Israel, it ceases to be Hamas. So for many within Hamas, this could be a convenient way out of that dilemma -- go directly to the people, hold a referendum, be bound by those results and then turn around and say, 'We are listening to the will of the Palestinian people. This is true democracy.' "


This sounds a bit over-simplified to me, but if anything can bring some peace to that region, I'm all for it.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11445 posts, RR: 76
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1451 times:
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Putting Israel on the spot and recognizing them and their right to exist will open the door to two way talking. I think they are all ready for it.

I guess cutting off the cash has forced some reality checks.....that and the fact that nothing else has gotten anyone anywhere but dead or maimed.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1444 times:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 2):
"They can't recognize Israel. If Hamas recognizes Israel, it ceases to be Hamas."]

I thought that was interesting, too. They may cease to be Hamas, in the terrorist form, but could become champions of peace and the future in the Arab world-IF, they have the boldness and foresight to realize that this state of war has not gotten their cause anywhere.


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2325 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1441 times:

Yeah saw it here as well:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3255057,00.html

In unwritten speech, PA chairman says ‘if within 10 days gov’t does not recognize plan for Palestinian state on '67 borders, I will hold referendum on issue;’ adds that 'we must stop dreaming and take what we can get now'

Personally if or when the Palestinian authority steps up, and takes care of their people and their land and do what is best, then will there be prosperity for the whole region!
In the future, I hope to see negotioations and cooporation between the two, maybe even an agreement on Jerusalem?

I am hoping and praying for the best anyways...

Wa' salam.
Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1441 times:

I think the reason Abbas is proposing this is much more complicated than a genuine desire for peace. But this proposal might allow him to get on top of the Palestinian leadership crisis between Hamas and Fatah. And if this results in a recognition of the State of Israel, more power to Abbas.

User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1441 times:

Big Co. Jones on this guy. Gutsy move. Let's hope that it moves the process forward.

User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1433 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 7):
Gutsy move.

"Gutsiest move I ever saw, man."

Signed,

Slider


User currently offlineCO7e7 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2848 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1430 times:

If the Hamas gov't officials are smart enough, they'll listen to Mr. Abbas.....

User currently offlineTIA From Albania, joined Mar 2006, 524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1425 times:

I guess there is no way of knowing this now, but I'll ask anyway. Are there any preliminary estimates of the result of a possible referendum? Since Abbas wants to hold such a referendum if Hamas doesn't recognize Israel, it seems like he believes that the majority of people will back him up, which is great, if true.

User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2325 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1425 times:

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 9):
If the Hamas gov't officials are smart enough, they'll listen to Mr. Abbas.....

IQ is of no importance, only pride and anger needs to be controled for them to listen.

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1413 times:

Quoting TIA (Reply 10):
I guess there is no way of knowing this now, but I'll ask anyway. Are there any preliminary estimates of the result of a possible referendum? Since Abbas wants to hold such a referendum if Hamas doesn't recognize Israel, it seems like he believes that the majority of people will back him up, which is great, if true.

I was wondering that as well. My guess is that a substantial minority would reject peace (maybe 20-40%), but a majority would favor a two-state solution.....Unfortunately, all of the happenings there in the past few weeks have "Coming Civil War" written all over it.


User currently offlineCO7e7 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2848 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1412 times:

Quoting Windshear (Reply 11):
IQ is of no importance, only pride and anger needs to be controled for them to listen.

Here's why i think IQ is important: If they start thinking with their brains, they'll get somewhere.. however, if they keep thinking with their hearts (which are full of hate and anger) then they ain't going nowhere... and i do believe that the Palestinian people are getting fed up with Hamas!
Poverty right now in the West bank and Gaza has hit bottom ground...

But i see where you're coming from Boaz.


User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1717 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1410 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
I guess cutting off the cash has forced some reality checks.....that and the fact that nothing else has gotten anyone anywhere but dead or maimed.

 checkmark 

There was also a statement just yesterday that Israel would unilaterally define the border if the PA didn't step up as a negotiating partner. I agree with you though, the money was, and remains, a key leverage tool. Something like 85% of the Palestinian GNP is from aid, and almost all of that comes from the US and the EU.



WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2325 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1404 times:

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 13):

Couldn't agree with you more! Big grin

This is a delicate matter no doubt about it, I mean just look at some of the debates in this forum eh?

I just agree 120% with abbas when he says, that they need to take what they can get, and do that now! The Palestinian people have been in the background and in the casualty lists for way too long. I cannot even begin to imagine just how little hope there must be in their hearts at this time...

The leaders how ever must act accordingly, and not continue to hold revenge and struggle as their only willing.

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 21 hours ago) and read 1347 times:

I think this is an important step for both sides of this issue that has gone on way way to long. I am not convinced Hamas recognize Israel, based on thier hard liners, but I think they want it to go to a vote, and I think it will pass, and hopefully setting the stage for a long term settlement on this issue. Lets hope for a peaceful coexsistence between the Israelis and Palestinians in a two state system.

User currently offlineCO7e7 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2848 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 20 hours ago) and read 1319 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 16):
Lets hope for a peaceful coexsistence between the Israelis and Palestinians in a two state system.

Amen brother!


User currently offlineScalebuilder From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 20 hours ago) and read 1315 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
I guess cutting off the cash has forced some reality checks.....that and the fact that nothing else has gotten anyone anywhere but dead or maimed.

Let's not forget that the US has promoted the idea of free elections and the freedom to chose everywhere since Bush took office. I think this idea has lived in the heart of every US President.

Even though Hamas was democratically elected by all means, I think it is very questionable that the Bush Administration joins in the effort to just "shut" Palestine down by withholding funding and necessary aid because the "wrong" party won the election. Isn't this election the result of a worldwide democratic crusade that the President himself promoted? He may praise the election process, but he also needs to gracefully accept the outcome of these. After all, it was a fair election by all means.

Even though I do not in any way support random suicide bombings and the violence of Hamas in the past, there could at least be willingness in the US administration to communicate with the new Palestinian leadership. Remember, Hamas is fulfilling a new role in Palestine now, and that role comes with much more responsibility when it comes to the Palestinian people. Today, they, the Palestinian people, are looking to Hamas as their hope for the future.

That a party will lose an election is just as fair as one declaring victory. What impression is the Palestinian people going to be left with when it comes to democracy in the wake of this? Is the alternative to actually send people in to Palestine and "tell" the common man who to vote for so that the outcome will line up with long term strategy for the US and other stakeholders? We all know that is both wrong and undemocratic.

The fact that the people of Palestine ended up with Hamas as their government is nothing more than the expression of a People that has tried everything else and failed with too much help of a better knowing world. They tried the peace treaties with Arafat and the continuation of these under Abbas. I praise Abbas for his latest initiative (I have a very high regard for him), and I do think that the new Palestinian government ultimatly will recognize Israel. Israel needs to make moves towards opening up dialog and ultimately recognizing the new Palestinian government too.

There is a lot the US can assist with in the aftermath of this election. We managed to get a fair one, the Palestinian people have spoken, but now the real work begins.

To shut Palestine down is just the wrong way to go as a start.


User currently offline11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1717 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 15 hours ago) and read 1268 times:

I cannot help but notice that not a single one of our normally vocal Arab members or any of our equally loud Palestinian supporters has said anything in this thread. Why is that?


WhaleJets Rule!
User currently offlineSoyuzavia From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 1243 times:

Under no circumstances should Hamas agree to this, as it is no more than an internal Palestinian political move by Abbas. At least not agree to it within 10 days, and without knowing just how much of a 'right' Israel has to exist.

East Jerusalem is the key here. If Hamas recognises Israel's right to exist, then it could be interpreted that they also agree, by default, that Jerusalem is the 'eternal and undivided' capital of Israel, as it is thought of in Israel.

If Israel agree to hand over East Jerusalem to Palestinian sovereignty, then Palestine will in all likelihood agree to recognise Israel's right to exist.


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2325 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 1232 times:

Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 20):
If Israel agree to hand over East Jerusalem to Palestinian sovereignty, then Palestine will in all likelihood agree to recognise Israel's right to exist.

Well em nice "analasys" of the whole dilemma.... How ever.
As of now, there is no way that Israel will agree on East Jerusalem, when the situation is like it is.

That is why I think Abbas is right!
They need to start pulling them selves up from the dust, and start building an infrastructure and a decent society.

When that happens I promise you, all is possible!

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 1223 times:

If Palestine wants to be treated like a sovereign and legitimate nation, it is time for them to act like one and recognize Israel.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 19):
I cannot help but notice that not a single one of our normally vocal Arab members or any of our equally loud Palestinian supporters has said anything in this thread. Why is that?

No need to ask question that we all know the answers to. They do not want Israel to exist and this will contribute to it's legitimization. While I hope that this will be the beginning of the end of violence, we all know that the anti-zionest movement is powerful and extends far beyond Palestine. I seriously doubt that this will lead to any meaningful events.


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2325 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 1218 times:

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 22):
They do not want Israel to exist

Surely you don't mean all the Arabs on A.net do you?

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 1217 times:

Quoting Windshear (Reply 23):
t

Surely you don't mean all the Arabs on A.net do you?

I wouldn't say all, but most moslems are anti-zionist.


25 Post contains images Windshear : Loads have written anti-zionist remarks, with out even knowing what the hell Zionism is... But you wrote that they did not want Israel to exist Boaz.
26 Fumanchewd : Yes. I have the historical evidence to back up that islam is predominantly anti-zionest. If you ask me to back it up, please wait, I have an intervie
27 Windshear : I just thought that you meant, that to be opposed to the creation of the state, was the same as being oposed to the continued existance of the state
28 Fumanchewd : Now, there is historic evidence of moslems attempting to persuade jews that mohammod was the prophet, and since they, of course, did not believe it,
29 Fumanchewd : Upon further consideration, I think that there could be a valid difference of opinions between the two. But I don't believe that anyone would argue t
30 Fumanchewd : Or is this perhaps a passive/aggressive trait? "I don't want to see them get killed, but I don't want them here." It seems a little suspect and contr
31 Post contains images Windshear : Interesting historic elements you wrote, are you sure about their accuracy? I have heard a Saudi man tell a journalist, that the reason why they do n
32 AGM100 : Wow ! Very good news ! Just the idea that the words "Referendum" are being used is positive in my view. Not exactly the kind of ideas being thrown aro
33 Post contains links and images Emirates773ER : Agreed. By the way it is spelt as Muslims and not Moslems anymore. How are you even making that statement? Please bring some facts to the table, if t
34 Post contains links Dtwclipper : I've read this too: Jerusalem has great significance in Islam, being closely associated with two much prized traditions about Muhammad's life, and al
35 RJpieces : Significant sure, but it only became a "must have" after Israel captured it in 1967. Between 1948 and 1967, when Jordan controlled East Jerusalem, on
36 Emirates773ER : Sorry for not making my reply clear enough, my issue was with claim being made about Muslims praying three times a day which is not true. But the Mus
37 Falcon84 : And holds high importance to the Jewish and Christian faiths as well, for obvious reasons. The "Jeruselem Question" cannot be, ultimately, decided in
38 AndesSMF : Amen, brother! Thats the only way Jerusalem will work.
39 AGM100 : Agreed , 100% . Is this not the position of the government of Israel ? I have alwayes heard that they supported the "open city idea".
40 Stirling : A lot of you guys are heaping mass quanities of praise upon Mahmoud Abbas...and that's ok, I suppose. Just don't forget that the source of the referen
41 Slider : Totally--and if he lives to tell about it. Tremendous step. Of course, now that Israel has capitulated fully, he can still claim victory, which certa
42 Falcon84 : I wish that was true, but it's not. Israel wants Jeruselem as it's Capital, something I've always opposed. It should be neither the Capital for Israe
43 RJpieces : I would have said this before Israel was founded in 1948. But the capital of Israel has always been in West Jerusalem...That is where the Knesset is,
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