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The End Of The Bush Doctrine  
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2659 times:

http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.all,pubID.24452/pub_detail.asp

Last week, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice announced resumption of full U.S. diplomatic relations with Libya, citing Tripoli's renunciation of terrorism and intelligence cooperation. This ends a quarter-century diplomatic freeze. It also marks an effective end to the Bush doctrine.

At his second inauguration, President Bush declared: "The survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands. The best hope for peace in our world is the expansion of freedom in all the world."

Since that soaring pronouncement, the Bush administration has watched Egypt abrogate elections, ignored the collapse of the so-called Cedar Revolution in Lebanon and abandoned imprisoned Chinese dissidents; now Washington is mulling a peace treaty with Stalinist North Korea.

The rhetoric of democracy, it turns out, comes more easily than its implementation.

58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2648 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Since that soaring pronouncement, the Bush administration has watched Egypt abrogate elections, ignored the collapse of the so-called Cedar Revolution in Lebanon and abandoned imprisoned Chinese dissidents; now Washington is mulling a peace treaty with Stalinist North Korea.

I think you make an interesting point. Let's not forget that Russia appears to have become more authoritarian, as well.

Also, Latin America has become more and more leftist, which some may deem at counter-purposes to the freedom of which the President has spoken.

However, on the positive side of the ledger, from a purely governmental standpoint, are Afghanistan and Iraq, both of whose governments are, in theory, more democratic than those they replaced.


User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2621 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 1):
Afghanistan and Iraq, both of whose governments are, in theory, more democratic than those they replaced.

Don't forget Palestine is a democracy now  Wink


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2610 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
The rhetoric of democracy, it turns out, comes more easily than its implementation.

So what do you propose?


User currently offlineAA777 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 2544 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2604 times:
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This is what you get when you start mucking around thinking you can decide to make the world into whatever you want. Bush has found that he does not have limitless power. Everything is easier said than done. The Iraqis would be welcoming us into the streets, right?

-AA777


User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8045 posts, RR: 54
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2592 times:

To me, "Bush Doctrine" = preemptive military action on any target in any country. And I don't think that has ended - despite overwhelming public opinion and indeed the complete and grisly failure of the US to achieve it's goals in Afganistan and Iraq, the administration is gunning for Iran. I personally am astounded how little effect these factors have had on the Bush admin. You would think the hideous failures in Afganistan and Iraq, not to mention the worldwide unpopularity of the US as a result, would have put the brakes on their twisted ambitions, but it almost seems to spur them on. These people really don't give a shit. Remarkable.

(RJPieces, as though you or the Bushistas could care less about the freedom of any non-Americans, with the obvious exception of Israel. Come on - the US has supported undemocratic regimes in the ME for decades, to safeguard Israel and get mega cheap oil. Who cares about the Egyptians, living under a horrific dictatorship? That horrific dictatorship gets $6b a year from the US in return for a peace treaty with Israel, making Egypt the second biggest recipient of US aid behind you-know-who. So the idea that the Bush admin ever cared about freedom anywhere is absurd. The "Cedar Revolution"? Give me a break. If Syria would back down from it's pro-Palestinian principles and give US corporations access to it's resources and markets, the US would give it stacks of cash and Lebanese sovereignty on a plate, the freedom of it's people be damned.)



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2586 times:

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 5):
To me, "Bush Doctrine" = preemptive military action on any target in any country. And I don't think that has ended - despite overwhelming public opinion and indeed the complete and grisly failure of the US to achieve it's goals in Afganistan and Iraq, the administration is gunning for Iran. I personally am astounded how little effect these factors have had on the Bush admin. You would think the hideous failures in Afganistan and Iraq, not to mention the worldwide unpopularity of the US as a result, would have put the brakes on their twisted ambitions, but it almost seems to spur them on. These people really don't give a shit. Remarkable.

(RJPieces, as though you or the Bushistas could care less about the freedom of any non-Americans, with the obvious exception of Israel. Come on - the US has supported undemocratic regimes in the ME for decades, to safeguard Israel and get mega cheap oil. Who cares about the Egyptians, living under a horrific dictatorship? That horrific dictatorship gets $6b a year from the US in return for a peace treaty with Israel, making Egypt the second biggest recipient of US aid behind you-know-who. So the idea that the Bush admin ever cared about freedom anywhere is absurd. The "Cedar Revolution"? Give me a break. If Syria would back down from it's pro-Palestinian principles and give US corporations access to it's resources and markets, the US would give it stacks of cash and Lebanese sovereignty on a plate, the freedom of it's people be damned.)

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

WHAT DO YOU PROPOSE!?!


User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2582 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 3):
So what do you propose?



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 6):
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

WHAT DO YOU PROPOSE!?!

Using your logic, I should do your job, you should do mine, and RJPieces or Cedarjet should be PotUS. It's not Reese's responsibility to have an alternative.


User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8045 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2579 times:

I propose a regime in DC that either (a) fights to protect the freedom of people everywhere, so bye bye US aid to Egypt, bye bye to US protection of the Saudi royal family, bye bye US aid to Israel unless they immediately withdraw from the West Bank and hand over their nukes and WMDs etc etc, sort out Iran, N Korea, Algeria, Syria, god knows where else (it's a long list) - not by killing tens of thousands of civilians in those countries but by talking to the leaders and working out why they behave the way they do and enforcing a solution with incentives; no more torture flights, no more Guantanamo Bay, no more "Patriot" Act, no more military strikes against civilians... or (b) keeping the hell out of everyone else's business - no aid to anyone, no military action against anyone.

It's the hypocrasy that is so damaging, claiming to show an interest in "freedom" with words then doing the opposite with actions. If Bush & Co said, "We're invading Iraq cos Saddam is threatening to do oil deals in Euros, and we need an alternative to Saudi oil cos the Saudis just attacked us, and it's in Israel's interest," I think it would have been better cos everyone's worked all that stuff out anyway, so in addition to attacking Iraq for dodgy reasons (the ones I've just listed), everyone also knows the Bushistas to be liars. At least telling the truth about their motivations would take one thing (liars / hypocrites) off the charge sheet.

(CFalk, please don't be so rude; you will notice I am not quoting you then saying "Blah blah blah", or shouting.)

Next.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6785 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2563 times:

The ultimate irony and, I believe historical footnote, to the "Bush Doctrine" will always be that he went to fight for liberty and freedom on the other side of the planet while neglecting liberty in his own country.

That's it in a nutshell.

We fight in Iraq, we won't so much as put up a fight for our borders, language, culture or sovereignty.

I wonder who the next Edward Gibbon is who is chronicling this for history.


User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4292 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2558 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 1):
Also, Latin America has become more and more leftist, which some may deem at counter-purposes to the freedom of which the President has spoken.

I'm not a leftist (I'm a liberalist). Meaning free markets, people educating and helping themselves, a moderate limited safety net when people fall on hard times not of their doing, civil rights for everyone from religious extremists to atheists to poligamists.

I would have to disagree that voting 'left' means lesser freedoms. Of course to like minded people to Bush that may seem so, then again, it probably is so when the US left wins in elections too.

Besides Chavez and Morales, I would not worry about curtailing of freedoms in Chile, Brazil, etc.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8045 posts, RR: 54
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2540 times:

I must agree with Derico - I didn't earlier cos there were other points I wanted to make but I did notice our friend Aerospace Fan associate leftism with a curtailment of freedom and that really is rather specious.

Canada, France, Greece, Brazil are all "leftist" and could be classed as "socialist", and I would consider them all to be more free than the US, the ultimate bastion of right wing policies. Even the UK after two decades of right wing rule by Thatcher and her less well known successor John Major has a national health service entirely paid for by the central treasury, and other defining characteristics of left wing nations - and I would consider us to be more free than the US.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21504 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2540 times:

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 8):
I propose a regime in DC that either (a) fights to protect the freedom of people everywhere, so bye bye US aid to Egypt, bye bye to US protection of the Saudi royal family, bye bye US aid to Israel unless they immediately withdraw from the West Bank and hand over their nukes and WMDs etc etc, sort out Iran, N Korea, Algeria, Syria, god knows where else (it's a long list) - not by killing tens of thousands of civilians in those countries but by talking to the leaders and working out why they behave the way they do and enforcing a solution with incentives; no more torture flights, no more Guantanamo Bay, no more "Patriot" Act, no more military strikes against civilians... or (b) keeping the hell out of everyone else's business - no aid to anyone, no military action against anyone.

The first of those options is idealistic, but impractical. Not just for the US, but for any country. International politics is a messy game, and sometimes you have to accept the lesser of two evils.

The second of thoe options would be disastrous for the world. US aid is relied upon in many places. Pulling out of everywhere just so that we can be equally unkind to everyone makes no sense.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2528 times:

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 8):
I propose a regime in DC that either (a) fights to protect the freedom of people everywhere, so bye bye US aid to Egypt, bye bye to US protection of the Saudi royal family, bye bye US aid to Israel unless they immediately withdraw from the West Bank and hand over their nukes and WMDs etc etc, sort out Iran, N Korea, Algeria, Syria, god knows where else (it's a long list) - not by killing tens of thousands of civilians in those countries but by talking to the leaders and working out why they behave the way they do and enforcing a solution with incentives; no more torture flights, no more Guantanamo Bay, no more "Patriot" Act, no more military strikes against civilians... or (b) keeping the hell out of everyone else's business - no aid to anyone, no military action against anyone.

I don't know how either of those advances US interest or advances the peace and security of the world. To me those are the first two measures (and in that order) by which we should evaluate US policy.

Politics is the art of the possible. For that reason there will always be US foreign aid to Israel. The pro-Israel lobby is simply that strong and powerful within the US political establishment. Get a copy of Hedrick Smith's the POWER GAME. It's an excellent book about the role of money in politics with a particular focus on AIPAC.

Going out and picking a fight with N Korea is a sucker move. NK is a regionalized threat. Yeah they could launch a bunch of weapons to Japan and South Korea but until they get an ICBM, they're really not a threat to us. They've got absolutely no ability to sustain offensive warfare operations so an invasion of SK would simply be an act of desparation by the regime. Sitting them out is the best way to go. By the way if NK gets too out of hand, the Chinese will simply slap them silly. PRC is not going to allow NK to think it's the big swinging d*ck of the region if they act in any way that is contrary to Beijing's interest.

The only way I see NK and PRC cooperating is if China decided that it was going to take back Taiwan. In exchange for NK diverting US attention by a conventional war on the Korean penninsula while China invade Taiwan, China might throw them some support but even that's a huge stretch.

As long as oil is king, the US will protect the Saudi Royal family. That's just reality.

And as for Algeria and Syria... well we've got enough real problem to focus on instead of worrying about little piss ants like these two countries.


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6785 posts, RR: 34
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2515 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 13):
Going out and picking a fight with N Korea is a sucker move. NK is a regionalized threat. Yeah they could launch a bunch of weapons to Japan and South Korea but until they get an ICBM, they're really not a threat to us. They've got absolutely no ability to sustain offensive warfare operations so an invasion of SK would simply be an act of desparation by the regime. Sitting them out is the best way to go.

Actually, by that rationale, wouldn't it make perfect sense to withdraw our troops from SK? We won't be a tripwire for such a "regional" threat if that's how you want to characterize it.

We'll sit this out out and let SK, Japan and the region handle it.


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7405 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2507 times:
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I would hardly call this opinion a deathnail to the Bush Doctrine. Mostly the reason of why things have transpired the way they have, is becuase other things, from the CIA leak scandal, the high oil prices, to the Git'mo detainee "scandal"(if you can call it one) that have diverted the attenion and the resources. The Bush Doctrine is still alive and well in the standoff with Iran over the nuclear enrichment.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 2):
Don't forget Palestine is a democracy now

Well, they were given free elections, and they voted for a terrorist organisation. Irony?

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 8):
sort out Iran, N Korea, Algeria, Syria, god knows where else (it's a long list)

And how would you propose doing that?

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 8):
not by killing tens of thousands of civilians in those countries but by talking to the leaders and working out why they behave the way they do and enforcing a solution with incentives;

Talking to these leaders, through dialogue, and diplomacy? What a load of garbage. Have you not been watching the events unfolding with Iran? They were offered incentives by France, Germany, and Britain in which they turned it all down. All this while calling for the destruction of Israel, suggesting special clothing for non-muslims in Iran, and lying about their pursuit of nuclear technology. Talking is really showing that it works. When Iran says it wants to talk, it means they're stalling. Talk is cheap.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2487 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 15):
Well, they were given free elections, and they voted for a terrorist organisation. Irony?

Either that or a vast right wing conspiracy...  Wink


User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4895 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2477 times:

I'm a little confused by the statement "Palestine is a democracy". I know that elections were held in the occupied Territories, that there is a Palestinian Authority, but is Palestine a country yet? Isn't that for the Israelis to decide?

User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8045 posts, RR: 54
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2443 times:

Quoting Comorin (Reply 17):
is Palestine a country yet? Isn't that for the Israelis to decide?

I suppose you're right in a way. Shows how little the US cares about freedom though, America's #1 ally / client state holding a whole nation (Palestine) under brutal occupation.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlinePSA727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 974 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2404 times:

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 8):
not by killing tens of thousands of civilians in those countries but by talking to the leaders and working out why they behave the way they do and enforcing a solution with incentives;

O.K., let me get this correct...

Americans are killing tens of thousands of civilians? And they are also
responsible for the killing of American soldiers, too? Or are you referring
to the insurgents killing they're fellow countrymen, as well as American
soldiers?

Just want to know...



fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2364 times:

RJ, you're quite right that the president was full of rhetoric that doesn't match up with his actions. BUT, the role of a politician in modern America is to get elected and stay elected, not to effect good policies or policies that match their own words. Rhetoric gets votes. Actual policy and actions now, apparently, are less important.

You are of course bringing this up because you constantly seek to hijack US policy to protect Israel, and therefore you are upset that a potential threat to Israel, Libya, has a rising stock in Washington. I assume Michael Ledeen and Thomas Friedman or some other figure in the constellation of rabid pro-Israel commentators has put this story in your mind? But, anyway, you're right to point out the hypocrisy.

Cairo


User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8045 posts, RR: 54
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2345 times:

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 19):
O.K., let me get this correct... Americans are killing tens of thousands of civilians?

Yes. 100,000 in Iraq, god knows how many in Afganistan.

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 19):
And they are also responsible for the killing of American soldiers, too?

Well, I guess the American taxpayer is responsible for the 3,000+ American combat deaths, yes - it's not as though anyone's doing anything meaningful to get them out of harm's way, where they were placed without an honest and justifiable reason. But you know what I mean.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2319 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 20):
You are of course bringing this up because you constantly seek to hijack US policy to protect Israel, and therefore you are upset that a potential threat to Israel, Libya, has a rising stock in Washington.

LOL, you have really lost it. Libya a threat to Israel? Libya's a little piss country that isn't a threat to anyone, especially not Israel. I object to their "rising stock" because 270 people (189 of whom were AMERICAN) died in the Pan Am 103 attack.

You wonder why Arabs have a negative stereotype in the United States. Throwing out conspiracy theories all the time doesn't help one be viewed as rational.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 20):
I assume Michael Ledeen and Thomas Friedman or some other figure in the constellation of rabid pro-Israel commentators

Michael Ledeen and Thomas Friedman in the same sentence. They have little to nothing in common other than being Jewish, but hey, I was never one to understand the minds of people who rant and rave about Jews.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 20):
has put this story in your mind? But, anyway, you're right to point out the hypocrisy.

Umm, isn't a more logical, simple, and correct explanation that I was browsing the AEI website and found the article MYSELF? But conspiracy theories are alive and well in the Arab world I see. I think they are directly proportional to the lack of progress in the Arab world.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2317 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 3):
Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
The rhetoric of democracy, it turns out, comes more easily than its implementation.

So what do you propose?

Voting out the GOP from power in '06 an '08 is a start.


User currently offlineGilligan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2301 times:

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 18):
Shows how little the US cares about freedom though, America's #1 ally / client state holding a whole nation (Palestine) under brutal occupation.

1947 UN passes resolution 181 laying out the borders of Israel and Palestine. 1948 Syria, TransJordan, Eygpt, and the Palestinians attack Israel with the intent on destroying it. Part or all of them have done so 3 more times since then and the Palestinians have been running a non stop terrorist war since then. So tell me, if Ireland had attacked N. Ireland as many times and the IRA were blowing themselves up on busses and in other public places in Britian with regularity, you're telling me the Queen herself wouldn't be telling Blair to start putting the screws to the N. Ireland population?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 23):
Voting out the GOP from power in '06 an '08 is a start.

Not that I disagree with you but do you really think all that much will change? I frankly gave up on political parties years ago and have focused on the candidate, even more so now. The sad part is that everyone thinks that the other areas represenative is the problem, not their own. I don't think either party really has the countries best interests in mind, just their own protection of power.

As to the Bush doctrine, I think 9/11 showed that we can either fight them here or fight them there, it's all up to us. No matter where though, we will have to fight them to maintain our way of life.

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 8):
but by talking to the leaders and working out why they behave the way they do and enforcing a solution with incentives;

Talk all you want but if you're not carrying a big ass stick and show that you are prepared to use it, it's for nothing. Time has proven over and over again that these types only respond to, and only respect one thing, the use of naked brutal force.


25 Legend500 : The Palestinians who were already in the area had no say in regards to the UN resolution, and didn't even recognize the UN's legitimacy. It's therefo
26 Falcon84 : I have to strongly disagree with that statement. It was an even that rivaled Pearl Harbor, in both scope and how it shook this nation up. It will be
27 Post contains images Rolfen : What collapse, we did kick out the syrians Ok the rest was not pretty, we did not find ourselves any better off corruption-wise, some of the best pub
28 Soyuzavia : What an absolute load of RUBBISH. Stop reading from the Cheney handbook. This is the arseclown who accuses Putin of using energy as a tool to bully i
29 Post contains images Gilligan : But now they do as they regularly call on Israel to obey UN resolution this or that. If you are going to press for the acceptance of one resolution y
30 Legend500 : Agreed. I didn't say it had to make sense, but that's how it's seen in the region. Everyone wants everyone else to abide by UN resolutions the other
31 RJpieces : Legend, are you joking????? I don't think one thing you said was correct. The government passing a law blocking fringe elements from protesting at the
32 AGM100 : Political issues aside the USA has the airpower to attack any enemy anywhere in the world on very short notice. If we wanted to we could have air sup
33 Soyuzavia : The US could ,if they had the will to do it occupy Iran and destroy it completely. Please, the US couldn't fight its way out of a paper bag, and that
34 AGM100 : My post was not to promote that we attack Iran, just a statement that if we had the will to do it we could. If the people of the US were completely d
35 Dvk : You sound as though you think the Palestinians are completely innocent victims here. You're kidding, aren't you?
36 Slider : Offtopic, but this may be the most idiotic statement uttered in this joint in a long time. And that's weighing a LOT of idiotic statements.
37 Post contains images Legend500 : No, it in itself is not, and I'm not claming that it is. However, it is a further restriction of the freedom of speech, and any loss of freedom is a
38 Soyuzavia : Really? What I stated is pure, unadultered FACT! Without US military bases in Europe, Japan, South Korea, Australia, Kyrgyzstan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar,
39 Clipperhawaii : LOL Toothless tiger huh? Tell that to all the dead Al-Qaeda terrorists and the other burned, holed, or otherwise stiff terrorists that lay dead on th
40 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Well, this certainly explains a hell of a lot . . . . Welcome to LewRockwellisaNumbnut's world . . . . You and MD-90 ought to get together and share
41 Post contains links AerospaceFan : I don't understand Soyuzavia's approach in this or the matter of whether Russian has become more authoritarian, the latter of which manifested to me w
42 Post contains images L410Turbolet : I kinda lostt you Russo... are you talking about Russia now? If you indeed are, I guess we already realized that. Is he not? This "traditional tool"
43 QANTAS077 : all that technology and they can't beat a bunch of half ass mountain boys...so much for the mighty US military machine. they devestated Iraq in early
44 Soyuzavia : Nonsense is the fact that you refuse to recognise what I say is fact. How the hell does anyone think the US could have invaded Iraq without having ba
45 Soyuzavia : And what about all endless number of terrorists which have been created since because of a direct result of your own country's, let's call it an 'act
46 Post contains images ANCFlyer : What you say is bullshit . . . . plain, unadulterated, simple bullshit. No response required.    You don't for a small instant believe they were te
47 Post contains links QANTAS077 : where's the proof to say they were/are? you think the mujahadein in Iraq where terrorists before this war? i'd like to see the proof of that. fact is
48 ANCFlyer : Nope, Mujahedein are certainly not terrorists. But don't be so narrow visioned my friend. Do you think Al-Queda just popped up since 9/11? DO you thin
49 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Wonderful. So now they can finally repay in cash what they owe to almost everzbody since the times of the USSR. Just for the record "your" country is
50 Post contains images ANCFlyer : For future reference - and please feel free to use this photo . . . I prefer "action" shot over "display" shots . . . If you're gonna show a picture
51 QANTAS077 : nope, i spent many hours reading about terrorist groups back in the day...from the likes of Illich Sanchez and the PFLP to the Japanese Red Army and
52 Post contains links Gilligan : What people? The Palestinians? Once again, Israel, i.e. the Jews, can show where a little over 2 thousand years ago they ruled the land that is prese
53 Post contains images Clipperhawaii : You better inform your PM Mr. Howard then. LOL Laughable that's all I can say about your comments Care to make a bet??? You could only wish. If the U
54 Post contains images Gilligan : I thought about that but everyone always stares at the muzzle blast and never at the tank. Sorta like a Peter North movie if you know what I mean!
55 AerospaceFan : Not to derail this thread, but I do believe that I am vindicated in that you would concede, then, that what I was describing could not be said to be
56 AerospaceFan : A bit more.... This is an interesting point. To put it most charitably, what you've described is protectionism, which is may not be authoritarianism p
57 AGM100 : The mission to overthowing Saddam was accomplished, and the troops who performed one of the greatest mechanized strikes of all times deserved credit
58 Cfalk : Actually you are both right. History teaches us that that no "empire", whether, military, financial, or cultural, lasts forever. US hegemony will eve
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