9VSPO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1633 times:
A record 10,000 women had an abortion at home last year, the British Pregnancy Advisory Service has said.
It said nearly one-third of the 32,000 terminations it provided in the first nine weeks of pregnancy had been "medical" - involving abortion drugs. The BPAS described the trend as a "success" for sexual health, but campaign groups have been critical.
I'm all for personal freedom and responsibility, and I believe abortions are justified in certain instances...But there's nothing healthy about "abortion on demand" in the form of a pill, all in the name of retaining an active sex life...
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
Dougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1610 times:
I've got two grandchildren, two kids, and their respective spouses. They wine me and dine me and feed me like the prodigal son. I'm sure that if any of them had a fatted calf it's days would be numbered when I come to town. Vickie is six and Jackie is 1 year old and they're lovely people.
Thank heaven the ex didn't listen to me back in 1969.
KaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12241 posts, RR: 35
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1529 times:
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And more is to come if abortion is made illegal. People will still want an abortion and making it illegal will only cause people to do it underground with all the risks involved. As anti-choice people are against this simply for religious reasons, it shouldn't be outlawed, as others might not share their beliefs.
QANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1525 times:
I'm not too keen on 'home abortions' no matter how it's done. My greatest fear is that changes to the law may put women in a situation where they can only have an abortion in some shoddy basement at the hands of a dubious individual. Abortion should be regulated, and legal. That said, I believe governments have a greater responsibility (if they really want to lower the abortion rate) to create a national environment where women would be able to better handle the responsibilities of parenting (paid maternity leave, free child care, better financial assistance).
No sane person 'likes' abortion, but we don't live in a world where what we dislike automatically disappears.
Jap From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1516 times:
Jesus... tough subject.
I've had an abortion myself- for the sake of the child. I wouldn't be able to take care of a baby- especially when the man isn't in the picture anymore. And with all the problems I have, it was the best anyway. Even though I regret it today. But that's mostly the guilt of killing a defenseless creature playing a part here, not the fact that I actually wanted the baby to have a mother like me.
Adoption wasn't a possibility either- the child would wonder where he/she came from, wonder why I didn't want him/her and probably hate me for the rest of his/her life. Also, a lot of my adopted friends tell me they would rather have been dead than go through the torment of being an adoptee again.
So depending on the situation, I say it's ok for a woman to decide what's best for her unborn child. If death is better than life, then so be it. And I don't care much for men who scream "MURDER!"- they don't know what it's like
However, more control is needed. Women who don't protect themselves (which I did before you jump the gun... turned out the pill has no effect on me) and use abortion as a contraception should be shot. It shouldn't be allowed anyway.
It takes a lot of courage to speak so openly about such a delicate and intimate issue, specially in a forum like this. I admire your courage and I am sorry you had to make such a difficult choice.
Quoting Jap (Reply 8): However, more control is needed. Women who don't protect themselves (which I did before you jump the gun... turned out the pill has no effect on me) and use abortion as a contraception should be shot. It shouldn't be allowed anyway.
What should not be allowed? Abortion? we have to deal many, many times with babies that are born with all sorts of problems from parents who do not even see them once (once!) after birth. These babies are not even given for adoption, they are simply "shoved" into an asylum since there is no hope for them. I think that having an abortion, albeit painful and with ever-lasting consequences, should be always an option for cases in which the welfare of the child (and mother) will be severely compromised, both physically as well as socially.
With that said, I feel very frustrated that decades of sexual education, of intense mass-media advertising about the need from precaution (besides getting pregnant, women may be getting all sorts of STD's) seem to have brought about little in terms of actual safe sex practices, particularly among adolescents.
If anyone is against abortion, I would say they should either engage in real campaigning for education of children and teenagers (and not by proclaiming that abstinence is the best method - it is unrealistic and dangerous to think young people will abide to that) and/or creating/supporting shelters or institutions that deal with the amount of unwanted children in the world. Otherwise, cruel as it may sound, I think abortion is a valid solution.
Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 6): And more is to come if abortion is made illegal. People will still want an abortion and making it illegal will only cause people to do it underground with all the risks involved. As anti-choice people are against this simply for religious reasons, it shouldn't be outlawed, as others might not share their beliefs.
An ignorant comment. Some atheists are also against abortion on demand, as they see it for what it is - the taking of a human life, a fact which has been medically proven.
Secondly, abortion should be allowed- but being able to use it as a contraception shouldn't... Of course it wouldn't help to force these girls to have the babies as the babies would probably suffer.
Let me give you an example... when I went to school, I was in the same class as a girl who, at age 16, had had THREE surgical abortions. Whenever someone mentioned condoms, her response was- "why? You can just have the 'accident' removed!".
Flyingbabydoc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1492 times:
Quoting Jap (Reply 11): Girls like that need to be educated.
First of all, Jap, let me apologize - I misunderstood your post.
Secondly, I think you are too kind with a girl like this. This girl should be taken to an IVF center, and watch the enormous effort it is for some parents to get pregnant. She should also be shown what consequences all these abortions will have for her own ability of procreating in the future. And then assist in a few abortions to see what exactly is removed.
Unfortunately, as we have discussed on a thread about a 12 y.o. pregnant, education comes ultimately from home. As long as parents are relapse in educating their children about the value of a human life and the responsibility towards children to their own offspring cases like these are bound to repeat themselves.
Dougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1472 times:
I concur. Takes a lot of heart for a woman to stand up in public and say "I've had an abortion" and set out the rationale for it.
The problems that lie behind the argument relate to widely divergent world views, further complicated by resorting to sloganeering and demagoguery.
The truth lies somewhere in between.
One thing has puzzled me over the years is the trivialization of fathers, what their role should be, and what their responsibilities are to the unborn. I was looking at a website the other day which has several pages of interesting statistics on the teenage mother phenomenon and it said nothing about fathers and their responsibilities at all. Often they're marginalized or characterized as empty headed sperm donors with no standing to even open their mouths and voice an opinion. Certainly, the pro abortion people are not interested in hearing from prospective fathers.
One thing I've learned is that if you treat people like idiots or third class citizens, they usually will get busy showing you what idiots they can be.
Back in the day where I grew up, girls occasionally did get pregnant. You always knew who was dad, because he dropped out of school and the next time you saw him he was working as a box boy at the A&P struggling with the GED and paying the rent on a small apartment over a store. His life had suddenly changed.
There was a normative force that is missing today.
Shotgun weddings will make a man of you. I was at one. It was my own, point of fact, and both families were holding the shotguns. That being said, with the perspective that only age can give, I think on the whole making people take ownership of their errors of judgment, even though it has life changing results, is a worthwhile thing. I certainly can see the wisdom of it at this remove. That, and two lovely grandchildren make the point amply for me.
One starts down the road to self interest, eugenics, and ultimately the death camp by making it easy to dispose of a fetus and dehumanizing it with empty headed rhetoric. Making abortion anything other than difficult to obtain is an exceedingly dangerous social policy.
Having said all that, the best way for the pro abortion people to advance their cause is precisely that-consistently dehumanize the fetus and trivialize the father. These days, abortion is no more than a bad method of family planning. We're bound to pay for bad social policy in divers ways.
As Jefferson said, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.
I don't care either way whether it's the morning after pill, or surgery, or a coat hanger. I'd just like to see more people think before they act. No one wants an abortion, and if everyone put a little more thought into their actions (I know, revolutionary concept) we could reduce abortions by over 90% probably.
It also has the potential to make two people very unhappy, although this is obviously not the case for you.
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14): I think on the whole making people take ownership of their errors of judgment, even though it has life changing results, is a worthwhile thing.
For you, maybe. For you, going through with a pregnancy may be the right decision. But society isn't made up of multiples of you, or me; it's a collection of individuals with unique lives and different backgrounds. I think it's incorrect for you to want your opinion forced on people.
Flyingbabydoc From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1453 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15): I don't care either way whether it's the morning after pill, or surgery, or a coat hanger
Well, I do care: Morning after pill: increased risk of Stroke, cardiovascular problems, pituitary dysfunction
Surgery: adhesions in the Uterus, perforation, bleeding.
Coat Hanger: infection, septicemia, death.
At least where abortion is legal these women have a chance of undergoing a procedure with minimal risk to themselves.
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14): One thing I've learned is that if you treat people like idiots or third class citizens, they usually will get busy showing you what idiots they can be.
Well, sometimes you can treat them as 1st class citizens and they will still behave as trash. I believe that once a "level" of education has been established and reached for a certain family, there is little room for improvement.
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14): consistently dehumanize the fetus and trivialize the father.
This is an interesting point. Dehumanize the fetus is a consequence of empowering women, since it is their body and nothing else. However, it is the truth. In a situation where both mother and fetus are in jeopardy, preference is given to save that one who is already "alive" - the mother. Since 68,5% of all conceptions end up NOT resulting in an alive birth, over-humanizing fetuses may also be detrimental.
Nonetheless, the trivialization of the father is a reality. We seldom see a conjoint decision-making between parents, particularly when the couple is young, regarding difficult medical situations with the children. I think that men are often to blame for that - and the lack of responsibility a sign of the abysmally minute value a child has nowadays for many young people.
If you want to reduce abortion, improve education in general - parents and children alike. Otherwise, it is a lost cause, IMHO.
Jap From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1430 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15): I'd just like to see more people think before they act. No one wants an abortion, and if everyone put a little more thought into their actions (I know, revolutionary concept) we could reduce abortions by over 90% probably.
I hope you're bloody kidding me! MOST women don't just go to the doc saying "Hi! I'd like an abortion!"- most women actually cry, mourn and think it through!
It's not humanly possible to go through what I've been through without feeling ANYTHING. If you don't react, your body will. And you WILL get depressed. Some more than others.
As surprising as it sounds NO ONE goes through an abortion without really thinking about it. And if they do, they regret it afterwards and certainly won't ever do it again!
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18): What about the one you forgot? Birth control pills and a condom Silly?
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17418 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1409 times:
Quoting Jap (Reply 19): most women actually cry, mourn and think it through!
Yeah, AFTER the fact.
Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 20): Some women don't have a choice, such as in rape cases
They are a small minority, particularly in the EU and US.
Quoting Jap (Reply 19): That's a bit too late if you're already pregnant.
Yeah, that's the point. Think about it BEFORE you're pregnant, and you wont have to "cry, mourn, and think it through"...you can go straight to the shame, embarassment, and regret of sleeping with a bar troll and completely skip the invasive surgery portion of the affair
Tough question that is sure to stir up the pot. Personally I am against it as a form of contraceptive. If the life of the mother is threatened then fine. If the mother is raped or the victim of incest (most likely rape) then fine. I know if I was in that situation I would want nothing to do with something that is made up of half of the monster who did the rape. As someone who is adopted I am thankful that I was given a chance. Yes, I was born before Roe v. Wade, but we all know back alley abortions happened even then. The problem with this question is that so many people are going to fall one way or the other with little room in the middle. It is such a polarizing question that we have ended up with it being a litmus test for almost anyone who wants to hold elected office in the USA.
Quoting Jap (Reply 8): Adoption wasn't a possibility either- the child would wonder where he/she came from, wonder why I didn't want him/her and probably hate me for the rest of his/her life.
As someone who is adopted I can tell you that thought has never entered my mind. I've even met my birth mother and I don't hate her one bit. While she has been successful with her life had I been a part of it she wouldn't be where she is today. I also would not have made it to where I am today either and for that I thank her for giving me up and my real parents for raising me right. She and I no longer talk but that is for different reasons than her putting me up for adoption.
Quoting Jap (Reply 8): a lot of my adopted friends tell me they would rather have been dead than go through the torment of being an adoptee again.
Perhaps in older children that get passed around the foster care system but not if you gave them up at birth. Truthfully the only reason why I even know I'm adopted is because my parents decided to tell me on their terms before my drunk grandfather decided to tell me on his.
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 14): Takes a lot of heart for a woman to stand up in public and say "I've had an abortion" and set out the rationale for it.
Yes, it does. I may not agree with it in many cases but it takes guts to speak out about it.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
: If we held up our responsibilities as parents, our children would be smart enough to not find themselves in this position to begin with. That being sa
: Why thank you... No, before. You really think it's easy for a woman to make a decision like that? Tough break- it ISN'T. For the 1% that actually use
: I think it's upto the individual whatever they decide. I think it's a very difficult decision to make and I respect any decision that person makes. Th
: Calm down there. I'm not the one that said anyone should be shot. Also, if you've read anything I've said, you would see that all I want is that one
: You are welcome. If being on the pill and using a condom are not enough, ok, fine, I understand a TRUE accident. But I think you know as well as I do
: I/we did. So. What you just wrote didn't really come through in your original post. Just seemed like you described everyone who have an abortion as s
: In a perfect world they carry the baby for 4.5 months. If they did; then they'd bare more responsibility. Unfortunately while you are right in concep
: Mistakes, Accidents can happen, precaution or not.