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Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths-Part 2  
User currently offlineDiamond From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3279 posts, RR: 63
Posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1305 times:

Part 1 of this topic has reached 200 replies and has been archived. A previous attempt to start Part 2 resulted in a technical error.

Please continue the discussion here.








Part 1: Palestinian Explosives Caused Beach Deaths (by Dtwclipper Jun 13 2006 in Non Aviation)


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82 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1296 times:

Thank you Diamond. Here is what I tried to post and was unable to...

New information on the case:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

It seems that there is now little doubt that Israel was not responsible. MEAVNFAN, Cairo, QR and others--Gonna take back your harsh criticism now?

On Monday, the Human Rights Watch, while sticking to its demand for the establishment of an independent inquiry into a blast on a Gaza beach 10 days ago that killed seven Palestinian civilians, conceded for the first time since the incident that it could not contradict the IDF's exonerating findings.

Strengthening claims that the IDF was not responsible for the explosion, the Tel Aviv hospital said that no shrapnel was found in her body, except for one piece that was not reachable by surgery and would have to be left there. The damage to her body was "without doubt" caused by shrapnel.

Ichilov hospital did not accuse Shifa Hospital in Gaza of directly of removing shrapnel for no medical reason, but it said that it had never received a patient who was in an explosion with all the shrapnel removed (except for one unreachable piece).

Israeli authorities say the chances are "one-in-a-billion" that she was hurt by an Israeli missile.

Lucy Mair - head of the HRW's Jerusalem office - said Klifi's team had conducted a thorough and professional investigation of the incident and made "a good assessment" when ruling out the possibility that an errant IDF shell had killed the seven Palestinians on the Gaza beach.


User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1274 times:

It most likely was not Israeli artillery, but an RPG attack initiated by the Mossad agent posing as a Ghanaian football player.

User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1270 times:

If I am a radical, then I'm happy to be in the same boat as the head of Harvard's Kennedy School of Government:
http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011
"Why has the United States been willing to set aside its own security in order to advance the interests of another state? The U.S. national interest should be the primary object of American foreign policy. "

And My Main Point, which is taught today at Harvard:

"...no lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical."

Anyone who thinks their credentials are higher than Harvard's or Jimmy Carter's, I invite you to post them here.


This is a paper not a sylibus for course work, how to you conclude that this is what is being proffesed?

"The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy
By John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt
Working Paper Number:RWP06-011
Submitted: 03/13/2006
In this paper, John J. Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago's Department of Political Science and Stephen M.Walt of Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government"


User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1265 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 3):
"Why has the United States been willing to set aside its own security in order to advance the interests of another state? The U.S. national interest should be the primary object of American foreign policy. "

And My Main Point, which is taught today at Harvard:

"...no lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical."

What is your conclusion besides spouting unproductive cynicism? Sometimes things are done for what is right and not for what is the easiest thing to do.

Stating that there must be something wrong if America cares so much about Israel without receiving anything in turn is pretty silly. Unproductive cynicism with no sound conclusions.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1244 times:

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 4):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 3):
"Why has the United States been willing to set aside its own security in order to advance the interests of another state? The U.S. national interest should be the primary object of American foreign policy. "

And My Main Point, which is taught today at Harvard:

"...no lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical."

Sorry, I should have pointed out that is a quote from "Cairo" from the first thread.

Sorry, bout that.


User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1225 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):
It seems that there is now little doubt that Israel was not responsible. MEAVNFAN, Cairo, QR and others--Gonna take back your harsh criticism now?

I never said one word about this incident as I, nor anyone else on this board, has the slightest way of knowing what happened. I only speak what I can back with respected sources, such as this.*

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 3):
This is a paper not a sylibus for course work, how to you conclude that this is what is being proffesed?

The way these things work is that they are tested in classes, discussions and coursework before or while they are in the draft paper stage. They are informally shared with academics across the world before they get to this point.

In any event, we can assume that the 2 professors who wrote it profess their correct belief that American policy in the ME is driven by Israeli interests at the expense of America** in their own classes and/or among their graduate students.

Furthermore, for a progressive leftward leaning instiution such as the Kennedy School of Government to have its teaching head publish this FACTUAL document means he is absolutely sure of is points and quite able to challenge the east coast forces that have their panties in an uproar about his paper.***

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 4):
What is your conclusion besides spouting unproductive cynicism?

The conclusion is that US foreign policy is hijacked by what is best for Israel.

It is productive since the first step to solving a problem is discovering it, admitting it, and moving on to creation of a foreign policy that puts America first. The opinion that the Iraq war and all of US policy in the ME serves mainly Israel - to the detriment of America, is not found only among radicals****.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 4):
Sometimes things are done for what is right and not for what is the easiest thing to do.

No argument with that.

The argument is what is right for America. Results, costs and consequences are of primary concern. To quote Spock - the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 4):
Stating that there must be something wrong if America cares so much about Israel without receiving anything in turn is pretty silly

Caring is fine. I care about Bolivia, too. It's making America the undisputed tops of world resentment and distrust^, all for the sake of Israel, that is the problem.

I'd have no problem selling Israel weapons - and if the UN mandated a garrison of Israel to protect its borders, I'd accept it. The only thing I don't accept is sending Israel a trillion of my tax dollars for free and putting the safety of all of Americans at risk in the name of Israel.

Cairo


* http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5099978.stm
** http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62438-2004Sep4.html
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050704fa_fact
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20041004/dreyfuss
*** http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/12/ed...i=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19062
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5353855
(You won't find many west coast American sources concerned with this since the further you are from NY and DC, the more Israel is of minimal concern)
**** http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion...editorials/2003-03-17-oppose_x.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...n/A7832-2003Mar10?language=printer
http://www.amconmag.com/03_24_03/cover.html
^ http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1797771,00.html

[Edited 2006-06-21 07:17:58]

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20563 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1216 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):
(You won't find many west coast American sources concerned with this since the further you are from NY and DC, the more Israel is of minimal concern)

Well I guess that pretty much blows the whole "Hollywood is controlled by liberal Jews" theory out of the water.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1211 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):

The conclusion is that US foreign policy is hijacked by what is best for Israel.

Funny you should use the term hijack. A majority of Americans support an Israeli state. How is that hijacked?

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):
The opinion that the Iraq war and all of US policy in the ME serves mainly Israel - to the detriment of America, is not found only among radicals****.

Yes, I believe that this opinion is incorrect. It also serves as a fight for democratic ideals. I don't know if we are going about it in the correct manner, but if in five years Iraq is a funtioning democracy, then all of this trouble was worth it. It does not mainly serve Israel as it will hopefully serve Iraqi citizens as well as the rest of the world.

You must have missed my above post that this position on America's motivations is merely hypothetical cynicism. It has no basis and serves no purpose.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):
The only thing I don't accept is sending Israel a trillion of my tax dollars for free and putting the safety of all of Americans at risk in the name of Israel.

Well its up to the American voters to decide if they are willing to take that risk, and with the re-election one could say that they were.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):
To quote Spock - the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

...and that is Unamerican. We need to protect the few as well.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1201 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):
The way these things work is that they are tested in classes, discussions and coursework before or while they are in the draft paper stage. They are informally shared with academics across the world before they get to this point.

In any event, we can assume that the 2 professors who wrote it profess their correct belief that American policy in the ME is driven by Israeli interests at the expense of America** in their own classes and/or among their graduate students.

No, that is not correct. It is a paper written for publication, and not "tested" in the classroom.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):
Furthermore, for a progressive leftward leaning instiution such as the Kennedy School of Government to have its teaching head publish this FACTUAL

It is not factual, because you say it is, nor is it fact because it is written by to Profs. Please, it's a bad argument here.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):
(You won't find many west coast American sources concerned with this since the further you are from NY and DC, the more Israel is of minimal concern)

Again, BS...


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1200 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):
that Israel was not

I very much earlier stopped any allegation. BUT at the other hand do NOT accept the Jerusalem Post, btw. an excellent paper nevertheless, as a neutral source of information. And they base their information on information of the IDF, which has been the accused party. As I explained it earlier, it anyway is a kind of accident as neither the IDF nor Hamas wanted to kill that family, whatever may have happened there. And AGAIN, something very important HAS changed and that is that while the beaches were hardly accessible just last year they now are open and within easy reach of the population again. Weapons and landmines etc ? What if what as landmine originally "planted" to secure a settlement ? In my view simply a deplorable accident. -
-
What DID make me angry in the original thread is how US-Americans (not all but many) jumped with joy upon getting served by the IDF a chance to bash Palestinians. Without actual proof and without any independent investigation.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1199 times:

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 8):
The conclusion is that US foreign policy is hijacked by what is best for Israel.

Funny you should use the term hijack.

A) Whatever the details, fact is that consecutive US-governments with the exception of the one of Jimmy Carter totally and absolutely and without real reservations supported Israel throughout
B) Majority of the US-people ? possible, but has there been a popular vote about this topic ever ? and how many percent of the US-population really ARE in favour of that unreserved support ? details please --- thanks


User currently offlineMrmeangenes From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1183 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
A) Whatever the details, fact is that consecutive US-governments with the exception of the one of Jimmy Carter totally and absolutely and without real reservations supported Israel throughout
B) Majority of the US-people ? possible, but has there been a popular vote about this topic ever ? and how many percent of the US-population really ARE in favour of that unreserved support ? details please --- thanks

I think it rather interesting that a thread - supposedly devoted to the question of whether Palestinians were killed by an Israeli shell - has been diverted to a discussion of US/Israel relationships ...especially when it appears there is increasingly strong evidence no Israeli shell was involved.

In answer to our Swiss friend,no: to my recollection there has never been a
direct vote by the American people on the questions of our relationship with Israel-any more than the Swiss people voted to retain control of judengelt hidden there by the Nazis.

We are a representative democracy. If our representatives do not please us,we remove them by electoral process : not instantly, but effectively.

Hope that answers your question !



gene
User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1175 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 1):
Israeli authorities say the chances are "one-in-a-billion" that she was hurt by an Israeli missile.

Cool, so do you also ask Saddam about his murders, Bush for the propaganda ("WMD in Iraq")? The Israeli authorities are a very weak source.



signature censored by admin - so check my profile
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1169 times:

Quoting Mrmeangenes (Reply 12):
has been diverted to a discussion of US/Israel relationships

true, but NOT by me !


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1168 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 14):
true, but NOT by me !

Not by me either! Wonder who did?  banghead 


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1162 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 15):
Wonder who did?

I know who did it ......................., but why NOT discussing about it


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1159 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 15):
Wonder who did?

I know who did it ......................., but why NOT discussing about it

You're right....I got trapped in the discussion, and should have extracted myself much earlier.


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1141 times:

As I see it, we are all persueing the truth about this no?

Israel has documented all of their shell strikes on video.
Maybe a military guy can explain, but Israel use unmanned drones for guidance and documentation of shell hits, I know that the US does the same.
The shells that has been in question clearly shows the shells hitting around 250 meters (aprox 800ft) from where the Palestinians claims it hit.

Now also this fact has arisen today:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3265729,00.html

"I can unequivocally state that the shrapnel taken from the child injured in the Gaza beach incident is not a 155 millimeter shell," he said.

The child, Adham, is 12, and was brought to Israel after the incident, where he is hospitalized in the Soroka Medical Center in serious but stable condition.
The IDF took a piece of shrapnel from his body for a lab analysis. The army and the Palestinians have contradictory versions of who was responsible for the explosion, and the argument over who was responsible for the deaths of the family members continues to cause an international storm.


Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1136 times:

Quoting Windshear (Reply 18):
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3265729,00.html

Your going to get it from our buddies for using a biased source!

When Al Jazeera reports it (Oh about the time hell freezes over, they raise the Titanic, or Hillary becomes President which ever comes first) it will be believed.


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1135 times:

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 2):
It most likely was not Israeli artillery, but an RPG attack initiated by the Mossad agent posing as a Ghanaian football player.

Oh yeeeeaaah Big grin

Quoting Cairo (Reply 6):

The conclusion is that US foreign policy is hijacked by what is best for Israel.

That is so untrue!
Israel is the one under restraint by the US, not vice versa!
Do you remember when Bush first entered office? They told Israel the following after each suicide attack: Calm down, and do not retaliate something that enfuriated many Israelis, guess what changed the Bush administration's views??

I also remember my grand mother in Israel who struggled with her gas mask, because of the gulf war in '91, Israel was furious, but was asked to stay out, so they did.

Your emphasis is quite distorted, USA is the major player here, Israel is not, do not make it the other way around.

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1132 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 19):

Your going to get it from our buddies for using a biased source!

When Al Jazeera reports it (Oh about the time hell freezes over, they raise the Titanic, or Hillary becomes President which ever comes first) it will be believed.

Yeah well Cairo thinks BBC is unbiased  Yeah sure What can you say?
I don't really care, I see Ynet as balanced, he might think otherwise because of his views, but Ynet is an Israeli media which is not owned, controlled or paid for by the Israeli government.

I think we should start making the same claims as "they" do, lets say if Cairo can call BBC unbiased, I can call FOX unbiased. Big grin

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1106 times:

The latest, apparently from Israeli sources originally, is that what exploded has been (may have been) a non-exploded dud-shell of a grenade fired onto the beach two or three years ago. Which now went off due to the many people now around. A tragic accident as a result of what otherwise are positive developments.

User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1094 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 22):

Did you read the Ynet link I posted? The theory is in there as well.

Here is another thing today:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3266200,00.html

Justice Minister Haim Ramon tells Ynet 'accidents during battle happen to every superpower engaged in war on terror, but firing 40 Qassams a day on Sderot and trying to intentionally kill civilians is a war crime'

I mean how can the Palestinians fire into Israel, and not only that, but target civilian cities and especially the schools in the area?
The children in S'derot are traumatized beyond reasonable, their school is almost daily evacuated because of incomming Qassam rockets.

It is by pure "luck" that no children have died, seeing as many of the rockets have hit right smack in the school yard several times.

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 1084 times:

Quoting Windshear (Reply 23):
how can the Palestinians fire into Israel, and not only that, but target civilian cities and especially the schools in the area?
The children in S'derot are traumatized beyond reasonable, their school is almost daily evacuated because of incomming Qassam rockets.

It is by pure "luck" that no children have died, seeing as many of the rockets have hit right smack in the school yard several times.

-
it admittedly is outright disgusting. When considering to be in the place of the Israelis affected in such places, I can understand ........... . I suppose that the "authors" of these attacks still believe that the Israelis, when being sufficiently molested will one day "pack and leave". I remember to have had a "lively" discussions with two Israelis in 1994 who claimed that many of those Hamas people had such ideas and I said that to live so much "in the clouds" is not possible. The two gents unfortunately were proven right and I wrong, it IS possible !


25 Post contains images Windshear : I don't know why, but I can picture this in my head Anyways ME AVN FAN, being realistic isn't always comfortable, it isn't always nice... Many of the
26 Post contains links Cairo : My sources are major mainstream news organizations in the west. You are the first to bring up Al Janeera, I believe. Any organization is biased to th
27 Dtwclipper : May I remind you of your previous statement? I admit now that I look at it further that the lat 3 sources in my reply number 122 are partisan and the
28 Post contains images Windshear : Err and vice versa no? Omph that gotta hurt I am sorry, but the BBC quite openly changed their focus recently, and I disagree with much of their emph
29 Cairo : I freely admit when I make a mistake and/or when my sources are weak. Do the pro-Israelis? Since my country has no important interest in the outcome
30 RJpieces : And what about the British and Spanish? Were their citizens killed for the sake of Israel?
31 Post contains links Cairo : The backers of the Iraq invasion do pay their price. Only those who use force against the Arab/Muslim world have anyting to fear from 'radical Islami
32 Post contains images ANCFlyer : This thread went way off track . . . . I haven't read a damn thing in part 2 about Palestinian Explosives . . . . Just Cairo's constant bitching about
33 RJpieces : Well as far as I'm concerned, it's already been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the IDF was not to blame. MEAVNFAN and Cairo keep twisting thei
34 Post contains links Cairo : For the 3rd time I have never said one word about who is responsible for the beach incident except to say that it is impossible for me to know. I kno
35 RJpieces : Again with your NYC-centric crap after posting in the last thread how support for Israel is a Republican issue and is mainly a Southern, conservative
36 Post contains links Cairo : Where are you from? America and the free world don't need "friends" that spy on them like Israel.* Cairo * http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/38
37 Dtwclipper : You're link is about a Mossad agent arrested in New Zealand? "New Zealand jails Israeli 'spies'" " target=_blank>http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Da
38 RJpieces : Like 8 million other people; I call New York City home. I go to school in Washington DC so I must perfectly fit your Jewish conspiracy model! But jus
39 Post contains images Windshear : As Ancflyer suggests this has gone way off track, but what the hell... Shocking?? How is that shocking?? Contrary to what many in the ME would think,
40 Post contains links Cairo : I read evey link I post. I don't expect anyone from the pro-Israeli side to reach much, no, because they aren't interested in facts and hate when you
41 Falcon84 : As far as I'm concerned, they didn't let an American through. They let somone who is firmly in the camp of those who want to destroy, instead of buil
42 Post contains links Cairo : The child mind responds primarily by attacking the individual personally when they can't win on the issue. Many of us Amiericans who put America befo
43 Falcon84 : The side I'm on wins the issues, dude. I don't stand on the side of those who spit on freedoms that we've won through a lot of shed blook over 250 ye
44 Post contains links Cairo : The definition of a traitor is one who puts a foreign country's interests above their own. Americans who put Israel before America are wrong because I
45 Post contains links Dtwclipper : Quoting Cairo (Reply 44): The definition of a traitor is one who puts a foreign country's interests above their own. Americans who put Israel before A
46 Post contains links AeroWesty : Perhaps you need a new dictionary. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/traitor One who betrays one's country, a cause, or a trust, especially one
47 Falcon84 : Seems to me you meet your own definition, Cairo. After all, you're putting the interests of the Palestinians before those of the United States. You s
48 ME AVN FAN : it is rumoured that the second father of Ms Rice is of Jewish origin, and Mr Rumsfeld is rumoured to be of partially Jewish origin, while the VP is r
49 Dtwclipper : And what a great place for rumours the internet is!
50 FUMANCHEWD : ...told by a Mr. Aj Jazeera. Is it just me, or when islam wants to smear someone, do they label them as jewish? They know that there is no evidence f
51 Falcon84 : He says he's an American. Well, I wouldn't care where I was at the time, I'd be flying the American flag next to my name, not that of another nation.
52 Cairo : The funny thing is I never hear the pro-Israli crowd answer why Israel spies on the US or kills 5 times as many people as Palestinians.....all I hear
53 Post contains links Dtwclipper : Let's take a look shall we? Egypt: Human rights groups have said that the Egyptian electoral process is deeply flawed and undemocratic. The ruling Na
54 Falcon84 : Cairo, stop being naive: EVERYONE SPIES ON EVERYONE. It's simply the way of the world. That's just the way it is, and always will be. As for Israel's
55 Windshear : Well if you do not know this, no wonder you are such a sucker for Euro-news... Left-wings here in Europe are quite anti-US and anti-Israeli, much of
56 ME AVN FAN : It is worse as it not only is Islam, that thing is also quite widespread throughout Europe. To label somebody as Jewish is a widespread method to put
57 RJpieces : Amazing how fast I just lost my respect for you...
58 Windshear : So does this make it any better? Why is this a negative thing? We have a Palestinian politician here, and many others that are Muslim, should I speak
59 ME AVN FAN : no, it makes it far worse ! far worse indeed ! beside the "neighbourhood" to people like Dr Goebbels ................ let's hope so
60 ME AVN FAN : your "respect" is NOT the problem. The problem is that the rumours I mentioned are going round, in Europe, in the Arab World, and elsewhere. And are
61 Windshear : Lets hope what? Not completely understood...?? Boaz.
62 Dtwclipper : So are "The Protocols Of Zion" but that doesn't make it right nor true!
63 ME AVN FAN : let's hope they A) are primarily US-Americans and Jews (and maybe related to people in Israel) second, and B) that they try to do good work. Good wor
64 Dtwclipper : You have a source for this story?
65 ME AVN FAN : I clearly said that it cannot be proven. It however is obvious that most of the contracts in Iraq by sheer coincidence went to enterprises of Hllibur
66 RJpieces : And yet you posted some absurd link trying to make Rice and Rumsfeld into menorah-lighters? And by your post, you believe they might be true!
67 ME AVN FAN : I did NOT try to make them into anything ...... and "menorah-lighters" is insulting and what IF it is true. I DISlike Rumsfeld, regardless of what or
68 RJpieces : Talk about insulting.... It's laughable that you would even suggest it! Glad to know that...Dislike Rumsfeld all you want, but suggesting that he is
69 ME AVN FAN : yes, I in spite of some political dis-agreements with them have respect for them and reject anti-Judaism and Jews-hating I in fact do NOT believe for
70 Zen100 : This discussion is pointless, since, views are so entrenched, no one is going to change them. We can only deal with the facts. ProudQatari
71 ME AVN FAN : A) everybody is dealing with "the facts", only DISagreeing somewhat about what "facts" are B) "entrenched" and controversial views are the basis of d
72 RJpieces : That's very nice of you. Perhaps I took it the wrong way, but even suggesting that Rice and Rumsfeld are perhaps Jewish has very dark historical echo
73 Zen100 : By the way, has anyone noticed, how since the world cup is on, and world is looking elsewhere, we have seen, attacks being stepped up by Israel. Proud
74 ME AVN FAN : "might be" ? possible, but a pointless topic indeed. - and again, what IF ? I favoured the candidacy of Gore/Liebermann, in spite of Mr Liebermann BE
75 Dtwclipper : No.
76 ME AVN FAN : no, not really. The sports-pages anyway are different from the international political pages. So that I canNOT see any connection anywhere in any way
77 NumberTwelve : Zen, the world cup is a great opportunity for that, because live doesn't count then. Lots of governments (also the German) do very un popular things.
78 NumberTwelve : Falcon, you are talking about the freedom of the tortured and imprisoned people in Guantanamo? The freedom of the people from Argentina when the CIA
79 ME AVN FAN : which is bad. those "hunters" who killed the bear should, well, not be killed, but at least grilled for dinner. Or they should come round and kill th
80 LO231 : Nope, it's just you. regards, LO231
81 Cairo : I've lived in Europe for 2 years and while this doesn't make one an expert, it does make me informed. As everywhere, left and right are defined prima
82 RJpieces : HAHA Cairo, any rational person who read your posts would see right through your hate-filled rants.
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