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Official Infringement On Your Right To Travel  
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6619 posts, RR: 35
Posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2024 times:
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A few years ago, when South Africa was under the Apartheid regime, any Mexican Passport would have on its first page the phrase "Void if traveling to South Africa" in effect, the government telling you that you could not go to South Africa. Same thing happened with Chile. We Mexicans could not go to Chile under Pinochet, and it was also printed in the Passport "Void if travelling to Chile" I'm using both as an example, I don't intend to discuss Apartheid or that other butcher. But I've seen other passports from other countries with similar legends about other countries. Can your country or government actually tell you were you can travel and where not? Is that not an infringement on your rights? How do you feel about that?

[Edited 2006-06-29 23:08:52]

[Edited 2006-06-29 23:11:09]

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2014 times:

Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
Can your country or government actually tell you were you can travel and where not?

My passport clearly states that it is the property of the U.S. Government, so I guess they could if they felt so inclined to do so, but there are no other travel restriction endorsements in it.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3772 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2011 times:

Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
Can your country or government actually tell you were you can travel and where not?

AFAIK the Swedish government does not dictate where we can and cannot go. Did the "void if traveling to South Africa"-thing have anything to do with the various UN sanctions in place at the time?

Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
Is that not an infringement on your rights?

I suppose that depends on which country you live in...

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6619 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2002 times:
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Quoting Doona (Reply 2):
Did the "void if traveling to South Africa"-thing have anything to do with the various UN sanctions in place at the time?

No, it had been there before the UN sanctions took place in the 80's

Quoting Doona (Reply 2):
I suppose that depends on which country you live in...

Well, yes, let's assume we are talking about a country that has is respectful of human rights and a democracy.


User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3772 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1995 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 3):

No, it had been there before the UN sanctions took place in the 80's

Good for Mexico!

North Korea has a reverted version, they don't grant visas to people of American or Israeli citizenship. Not sure what they think of South Koreans or the Japanese, though...

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineSabena332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1990 times:

German passports have the following remark on page #3 (in German, English, and French):

Countries for which this passport is valid

For all countries


Patrick


User currently offlineSFOMEX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1968 times:

Interesting thread!

Imagine for a moment that you travel to any of those "forbidden countries". If they let you in, they would stamp your passport. Once you are back in your country, they would realize that you've been in a place you weren't supposed to go. What would happen?

For the record, AFAIK there is not a "right to travel" outside your country. Every nation has the right to accept or not foreign visitors, thus it would be more a privilege than a right.


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1956 times:

Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
Is that not an infringement on your rights?

Man, I'm telling you the World Constitution sure has a lot of 'rights' in it for us.

It really is astonishing how many rights people believe they have. I am all for them of course, but most of them don't exist. Check out an English dictionary for differences between 'rights' and 'privileges' some of which probably should be rights.

In my current passport I cannot find any such travel restrictions, unless my Schengen visa is covering them, which seems unlikely.

My older passports had the usual US hatelist, North Vietnam (remember that?) North Korea, Cuba, China, Albania. Funny thing was, when I came back from Vietnam the Government put a separate travel restriction on me because of access to classified material - then promptly sent me to several countries on that list.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1953 times:

No restrictions on my passport  Smile



Lee



Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlineSabena332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1953 times:

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 6):
Interesting thread!

Indeed, so allow me another contribution.

Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
A few years ago, when South Africa was under the Apartheid regime, any Mexican Passport would have on its first page the phrase "Void if traveling to South Africa" in effect, the government telling you that you could not go to South Africa. Same thing happened with Chile.



Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 6):
Imagine for a moment that you travel to any of those "forbidden countries". If they let you in, they would stamp your passport. Once you are back in your country, they would realize that you've been in a place you weren't supposed to go. What would happen?

In addition to SFOMEX's question above: What had happen when you had to go for an emergency situation (death of a relative, urgent business related stuff, etc.) to the aforementioned countries while your passport is not valid to enter them? Did they give you a special passport without the remark that it is not valid for country XXX?

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 6):
For the record, AFAIK there is not a "right to travel" outside your country. Every nation has the right to accept or not foreign visitors, thus it would be more a privilege than a right.

Every nation should give their citizens the right to travel wherever they please. But of course can the country you want to travel to say: "No we don't want you here, you don't get a visa". But your homecountry should absolutely not ban you from entering another country just because they have a political problem with them!

Patrick


User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3772 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1953 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7):
Man, I'm telling you the World Constitution sure has a lot of 'rights' in it for us.

If it's restrictions imposed by your own government, I don't see how this "World Consitution" comes into play...



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineSFOMEX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1937 times:

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 9):
your homecountry should absolutely not ban you from entering another country just because they have a political problem with them!

Agreed! Furthermore, what could be more exciting than traveling to a country that is not in good terms with yours? Imagine... Americans shopping in Tehran, Cubans sightseeing in Washington DC, North Koreans in any other country and son on.  Wink


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1932 times:

Quoting Doona (Reply 10):
I don't see how this "World Consitution" comes into play...

Okay, a guy in Mexico posts in English on a forum located in Sweden but where the majority are probably Americans on the subject of a 'right' to travel from Mexico to South Africa.

It gets responses from the US, Sweden, Mexico, Sweden again, Germany, and Mexico again.

Now honestly are legal rights in all of those places the same?
How could we come to any consesus about what our rights are under the circumstances unless there was some sort of Constitution that applied to all who had posted.

In short, a facetious remark, levity, jocularity. It wasn't that good a joke in the first place, adding a smiley would have killed it and this explanation just drove a stake in its heart.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13209 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1910 times:

For USA Citizens, there are certain countries where they need permission, in effect an endorsement in their passport (like a visa) from the USA State Dept. to visit certain countries, I believe including Cuba, Cambodia, Yemen and a few others. The passport I have issued in June 2003, doesn't list resticted countries.

User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6619 posts, RR: 35
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1893 times:
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Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 9):
In addition to SFOMEX's question above: What had happen when you had to go for an emergency situation (death of a relative, urgent business related stuff, etc.) to the aforementioned countries while your passport is not valid to enter them? Did they give you a special passport without the remark that it is not valid for country XXX?

No, you would have a regular passport. Still with the legend. You would travel at your own risk. But, really my question is more about wether your government in spite that the passport is their property, has the right to tell you where to go or not. I see it, in effect, as a totalitarian policy.

Thousands of Americans go to Cuba through Mexico. I don't know if your passport tells you not to, AFAIK it does not, but still, I believe the US has a law against commerce with Cuba and that includes tourism. So in effect, they are pretty much doing the same, telling you that you cannot go to a certain contry. It's a contradiction in a democracy, or I might be exaggerating, so what is the general view?


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6619 posts, RR: 35
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1890 times:
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Quoting AR385 (Reply 14):

I really do not know what would happen if you travel to the country. I know that Cuba will not stamp your passport.


User currently offlineXpat From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 634 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1888 times:

Looking back at a very old passport (Indian) of mine, in 1981 an endorsement was added that stated: "This passport valid for travel to all countries, except the Republic of South Africa." Always wondered about that myself.


The only thing we have to fear is the sky falling on our heads. -Asterix
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1886 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 14):
Thousands of Americans go to Cuba through Mexico. I don't know if your passport tells you not to,

That's a curious way of stating it. Didn't you say at one time you either had citizenship in the U.S. or dual citizenship? Correct me if I'm wrong, please.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6619 posts, RR: 35
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1877 times:
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Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 17):
That's a curious way of stating it.

I don't get you. I have double nationality and citizenship, thus I have both passports.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6619 posts, RR: 35
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1877 times:
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Triple, actually, as I am an Argentine National and Citizen too.

User currently offlineLatinplane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2738 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1874 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 14):
Thousands of Americans go to Cuba through Mexico. I don't know if your passport tells you not to, AFAIK it does not, but still, I believe the US has a law against commerce with Cuba and that includes tourism. So in effect, they are pretty much doing the same, telling you that you cannot go to a certain contry. It's a contradiction in a democracy, or I might be exaggerating, so what is the general view?

Stupid rules that just don't make any sense. That is correct! Once you arrive in Cuba, if you're an American, you have an option to get stamped or not. The officer will stamp a blank piece of paper that will be put on your passport. What do you do with it? Throw it away before you get back to the U.S. via Mexico, or any other second country.

The general view by an ordinary American is: WHO CARES - Let's get some Havana cigars while we're at it!

 Smile LatinPlane


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1874 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 18):
I don't get you.

It looks like I misread who you were quoting. On second look it was Sabena332 which would explain how you worded it. It appeared on first look you weren't familiar with how a U.S. passport read.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7396 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

I know that Malaysian, Iranian & many muslim countries have "Valid all countries except Israel" and Israeli passports have some restrictions on countries too.

Tongan passports have no Cuba & I think also Iran. Personally I like my NZ passport - I can go everywhere, in many cases without Visas.

It pisses me off when politics and struggles that other people are fighting get in the way of my right to travel. It is my decision to choose where I want to go, not my governments.


User currently offlineTrekster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1858 times:

There is a strange law re Gib and ummm, i cant recall. Your not allowed to do something, and its very strange. Can someone tell us what it is. I will look at work today. It kinda goes, If you have this stamp in your passport, your not allowed in untill u get it crossed off or something like that.

User currently offlineBoeing744 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1846 posts, RR: 23
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1853 times:

Quoting Latinplane (Reply 20):
Stupid rules that just don't make any sense. That is correct! Once you arrive in Cuba, if you're an American, you have an option to get stamped or not. The officer will stamp a blank piece of paper that will be put on your passport. What do you do with it? Throw it away before you get back to the U.S. via Mexico, or any other second country.

When I was there, it was not even an option to have my passport stamped. They just stamped our visa. If I could have chosen, I would have got it stamped. I am a Canadian citizen, so it wouldn't have really mattered for me. We did have an American travelling with us though, and she had the same thing for her, with no problems.


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 25, posted (8 years 6 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1840 times:

Just like my older passports (well, at least those that I can remember - I got my first regular passport when I was 5 years old), my current one has the wording "This Passport is valid for all countries of the world" in it; no restrictions, nothing.

I guess that somewhat came with the territory of being a non-aligned country (and a country that only regained it's independance after WW2 because of its decision to be non-aligned) located between Nato states and the Warsaw Pact block of states... having restrictions in our passports would (or could) have probably been considered showing a preference for one or the other side.



Smile - it confuses people!
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