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Battle Of Gettysburg, Circa 2006  
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1501 times:

Today, July 3rd, is the 143rd anniversary of the bloodiest battle ever fought on American soil. The Battle of Gettysburg was a defining moment in American history, and in the outcome of the American Civil War. 53,000 Americans were killled, wounded or declared missing in 3 days of fighting.

Now, there's a new "civil war" brewing in the town that is home to what many consider the most hallowed ground in the United States. There is a proposal there to build a casino about 2 miles northeast of the main battle site.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2149742

Those for the casino say it will bring a needed boost to the Gettysburg area economy, create jobs, and give "after-hours" entertainment to those visiting the area. The opponents say it is simply unimaginable putting a casino withing close proximity to such a hallowed and sacred place in American history, where many of our forefathers fought and died.

I'm of the latter, being someone who, over the last few years, has read a lot about Gettysburg and the American Civil War. It is unconsionable, I believe, to even consider the idea of a casino, of all things, within cannon shot of the place where George Meade and Robert E. Lee, and those under their command, waged one of the most fateful battles this nation has ever fought.

What say you, fellow Anutters?

Gettysburg is about this:



Not this:



And on this anniversary of that battle, may those who perished there, North and South, rest in peace.

[Edited 2006-07-04 01:16:24]

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHandcuffs From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1491 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And on this anniversary of that battle, may those who perished there, North and South, rest in peace.


Amen to that.

As you know Vicksburg and Natchez, MS has a lot of Civil War history under their belt, and they have casinos there now. They only catch is they have to be on water ,so alot of the casinos there have some part of them touching the Mississippi River. Sounds like a similar situation.
Regards,
HC



Freedom isn't free...peace isn't pretty!!!
User currently offlineMrmeangenes From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1478 times:

Casinos ! God in heaven - casinos !!

If you've ever been to Gettysburg-I've visited twice, and can hardly bear the sensations of that battleground-you'll know you're visiting a very special moment in history.

If someone is going to put up casinos,it's about in the same league as walking out there and pissing on those graves.



gene
User currently offlineAirwave From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1117 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1463 times:

Would anybody stand to have a casino plopped down next to Ground Zero? How about in Oklahoma City, right by the site of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building? Or maybe put one on top of Old Faithful--that'll attract tourists, right? Hell no--everybody would be up in arms about any of them. Apparently, however, the same reverence for loss and triumph and even natural splendor has a statue of limitations as it were. Simply because the Battle of Gettysburg is far removed in time and memory doesn't lessen the historic or national import of the site.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Those for the casino say it will bring a needed boost to the Gettysburg area economy, create jobs, and give "after-hours" entertainment to those visiting the area.

That argument is ridiculous and has to originate with the casino operators themselves, not any citizens group. First off, Gettysbugh borough has a population of less than 10,000, and a good portion of that are gainfully employed with Gettysburgh College, the National Parks Service, plus local enterprise as well. Further, Gettysburg is located about a half-hours drive from the state capital of Harrisburgh, offering even more opportunity there, especially in federal employ. Granted, the economy of Gettysburg isn't growing explosively, but I think you'd be hard pressed to say that it isn't humming along quite nicely as it is.

I say, leave the site well enough alone and let tourists and students enjoy it as it was 143 years ago. Let the site speak for itself--without the "aid" of neon and velvet rope. And if a casino *is* built--I hope any and every spectre in the area haunts the place.  cheeky 


Airwave  eyebrow 



When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
User currently offlineDragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3986 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1463 times:

I was at Gettysburg 3 years ago. In the mornings there was fog all over the area and gave a surreal feeling to the place. Casinos do not belong anywhere near that place.


Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
User currently offlineTpasxm787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1730 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1459 times:

this is typical of the bullshit that goes on more and more these days.

yeah, ok, build a casino at one of the most (in)famous battle sites of the civil war. what brilliant politicial came up with this fucking gem?

while we're at it, how about this idea: let's throw some people out of their homes in CT and build a shopping/entertainment center.

oh wait...

as you can see i have a bit of a strong opinion on matters like this...



This is the Last Stop.
User currently offlineAGC525 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 989 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1448 times:

As a devout civil war buff (although I haven't reenacted in a few years) I agree with everyone else. It would be a disgrace. If your not into history, Gettysburg is a great, small town just to visit and see the shops. I've been to Gettysburg and love it the way it is. Thank God they tore down that awful "observation" tower a few years ago.

They can keep their need for a "nightlife" I'll take a night at O'Rourkes any day.



American Aviation: From Kitty Hawk to the Moon in 66 years!
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1442 times:

Everything seems to be about the almighty dollar anymore. Casinos at Gettysburg, shows the total lack of respect for American history. Its an insult to all men and women that ever served this country in the military. What next a Casino on the USS Arizona? Just let these mens souls rest in peace.

Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 4):
In the mornings there was fog all over the area and gave a surreal feeling to the place

 checkmark  Almost feels like the dead soliders were trying to reach to us.


User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1422 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
The Battle of Gettysburg was a defining moment in American history, and in the outcome of the American Civil War.

First let me say that There are several groups fighting this. My recent trip to Gettysburg to lead a tour was in May and there were signs all over town fighting to keep the Casino out.

I hope they succeed and have help ed them financially with donations.

However Falcon84 you have hit on a pet peeve of mine with your quote above. Gettysburg DID NOT determine the outcome of the Civil War. While I agree that it BECAME a defining moment in American history that only happened AFTER Lincoln's Gettysburg address. IMO (and this is an area I studied in detail) Gettysburg's importance to the war is overblown, especially Little Round Top.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1413 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 8):
However Falcon84 you have hit on a pet peeve of mine with your quote above. Gettysburg DID NOT determine the outcome of the Civil War.

No, but it, along with the taking of Vicksburg the next day, pretty much sealed the fate of the Confederacy.

I don't think the battle is overblown in any way, with all due respect, and I know you've studied it. I think it was a terrifically important battle, and, in hindsight, I do think it was a defining moment for one reason-after Gettysburg, Lee's army never again took the offensive. They were reacting instead of taking the initiative. When they lost at Gettysburg, it took away, forever, the offensive capability of the ANV.


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13113 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1411 times:

Would this be an 'Indian' Casino or a general one? I have been to Gettysburg a couple of time and to me a casino near the site would be insulting. The town has a lot of problems dealing with the large amount of tourists as it is for it's sacred ground. It is also not far from the 'Pennsylvania Dutch' region so is insulting to them too. Probably the politicans of the State of Pennsylvania are too afraid to raise other taxes so are looking for the easy out of legalize gaming.

User currently offlineGQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1411 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
There is a proposal there to build a casino about 2 miles northeast of the main battle site.

I agree with you, this is pure cow pie...

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 8):
Gettysburg DID NOT determine the outcome of the Civil War.

HA! And what if Lee had taken Gettysburg? The Army of the Potomac would've been routed, a shell of it's former self, and Lee most likely would've marched on Philadelphia, then thought about Washington DC. Little Round Top determined the OUTCOME of the battle. You say you studied it, yet you ignore what happened there, and why Lee lost Gettysburg. Jeb Stuart being 20 miles ahead of the Army of Northern Virginia didn't help much, either...


User currently offlineOldman55 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1525 posts, RR: 31
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1402 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 10):
Would this be an 'Indian' Casino or a general one

Regular casino, No indians involved. in fact the head of the oufit seeking the casino is the former head of "conrail", I think his name is david leven.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 11):
! And what if Lee had taken Gettysburg? The Army of the Potomac would've been routed, a shell of it's former self, and Lee most likely would've marched on Philadelphia, then thought about Washington DC. Little Round Top determined the OUTCOME of the battle

Maybe!! the bridge across the Sus. River at Wrightsville was already burned down and probably the bridge at harrisburg would have been burned also if necessary, and while the Sus. river is pretty shallow it is almost a mile wide so crossing it under heavy artillery shelling would't have been a given imho. As for what determined the battle, it could have been a number of things; the failure of the Rebs to follow-up on their victory of the first day, Picketts, charge,Hell maybe even the death of "Stonewall" Jackson at Chancellorsville.back in May sealed the fate of the Confederates. The whole Civil War is such an intriguing series of What If's.



too bad most of us get too soon old and too late smart
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6812 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1378 times:

What are the zoning laws in and around Gettysburg? Didn't they have a big fight about building an observation tower a few years ago?

Damn shame if they spoil that whole landscape....I remember being there years ago and it seemed like total undeveloped countryside.


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1366 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 13):
Didn't they have a big fight about building an observation tower a few years ago?

Yes they did. I was at Gettysburg a couple of years ago and did not see such a thing. I assume it did not get built.

Quoting Slider (Reply 13):
Damn shame if they spoil that whole landscape....I remember being there years ago and it seemed like total undeveloped countryside.

One of the things I appreciate about Valley Forge is the good job they've done so far, keeping the 21st Century from intruding. For most of the site it looks much as it might have in the 18th Century. There are a couple of highrise hotels nearby that can be seen from certain places on the grounds, and of course, you can drive your car through there, but overall it is quiet and reflective.

Gettysburg deserves no less.

As a combat veteran myself I flatter myself that I identify with these places. That said, I am not sure I oppose the plan entirely. If no part of the casino can be seen from any part of the NMP then I might not oppose it at all.

To be honest, when walking around the battlefield I was slightly offended by the ENORMOUS stone monuments erected, seemingly by every platoon that fought there. These things are everywhere. Of course I would not presume to take offense - these monument were erected by the comrades-in-arms of the fallen. I have no right to pass any such judgement. In the 1870s and 1880 when they were being put up, that was the style. Today they will not even permit street signs for navigation.

There are already businesses of every description at Gettysburg PA. It is my understanding that the casino is to be on the other side of town. So tell me, if there is something inherently indecent about casinos, why on earth do we tolerate the continued existence of Las Vegas or Atlantic City? Bad is bad. Bad is not good just because of geography. So, separate issues here; is it the casino itself or is it the likelyhood of neon-lit, thirty story mood killers we are debating?

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 8):
Gettysburg DID NOT determine the outcome of the Civil War.

Not alone, but it would be hard to argue a more important battle. Lee's general line of march could have turned the entire Union right here. The Susquehanna was not so much of a factor as both armies were on the same side. Lee could have defended his crossing first from the west side then from the east. In any event, turning the Union right would have placed Lee's armies between the blue and Washington DC. Not a good thing.

I might agree that Little Round Top was not vitally important. Had the south turned the Union Left at that point, half the cannon along the ridge could have been turned around and cut them to pieces. Whatever regiments turned that corner would likely have become more interested in getting OUT than advancing. That ridge commands its own east flanks as well.

Gettysburg holds one place of honor for sure though. It is maybe the best-ever forum for us armchair generals.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineChrisjake From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 870 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1361 times:

Big Round Top...
Little Round Top....
Devil's Den...
Blood Run....
Pickett's Charge....

Gettysburg is a very special and unique place. i've visited several times. Go, get up early in the morning and walk among its battlefields. you'll know what i mean.

please don't ruin this. keep the casinos out.


chris



Well nothing's dead down here, just a little tired
User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1352 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
I think it was a terrifically important battle, and, in hindsight, I do think it was a defining moment for one reason-after Gettysburg, Lee's army never again took the offensive. They were reacting instead of taking the initiative. When they lost at Gettysburg, it took away, forever, the offensive capability of the ANV.

I think you misunderstood me. I don't dispute Gettysburg's importance to the outcome of the war. The double hammer blow of Gettysburg with the loss of the flower of the ANV and the loss of Vicksburg a day later signalled the begining of the end of the Confederacy. However, as shown by some comments after yours, people think that Gettysburg IS the preeminent battle. Most scholarship (James McPherson of Princeton and the GOD of Civil War historians) actually point to Antietam as the true turning point of the war. And In studing thier arguments I have come to agree.

Gettysburg has captured the imagination of the American public to a degree that over inflates its reletive importance to the war. IMO Vicksburg was strategically more important to the end of the Confederacy. In one fell swoop the Confederacy lost slightly more men at Vickburg than they did at Gettysburg.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 11):
HA! And what if Lee had taken Gettysburg? The Army of the Potomac would've been routed, a shell of it's former self, and Lee most likely would've marched on Philadelphia, then thought about Washington DC. Little Round Top determined the OUTCOME of the battle.

Fair question. What if Lee had taken Gettysburg? You think Lincoln would have surrendered and the War would be over? Or would Meade had fallen back onto the Pipe Creek Line he wanted to fight at in the first place? Read the Gettysburg Address and what Lincoln was saying in speeches that whole summer. Lincoln was commited to winning the war he had commited to country to winning the war. If The stunning losses at Fredricksburg and Chancellorsville had not shaken Lincoln's resolve than A loss at Gettysburg would not have either.

Now the tactical question of LRT. I and many others are coming to the conclusion that LRT was secure the moment Strong Vincent's brigade occupied it. Have you been there? Have you seen that hill? Now imagine you marched 20 some miles in July heat to that hill without a drink or rest?

LRT as the key to the Battle of Getysburg rests on some shaky assumptions.
1) That the Confederate force that attacked it was in a condition to take it.
2) That Union leadership would have NOT counter-attacked. Or..
3) That the Confederate forces could have HELD it if Union forces had counter attacked.

I suggest you guys look beyond Little Round Top. On the second day 1500 confederate troops where about 600 yards from Meade's headquaters and the ambulances and artillery park in the rear. It happend in the CENTER of the line which had been stripped of troops to fight int he Wheatfeild. Handcock had ordered reinforcements and they were lest that a quarter of a mile away. But in between Meand's HQ and 1500 Confederates where the 262 men of the First Minnesota. Hancock needed 5 minutes to get those reinforcements in place. He ordered Col Corvill to charge those 1500 of WIlcox's brigade. They did. And less than 70 of the First Minnesota came back. But they gave Handcock 15 minutes. and the gap in the line was closed. Goto the PA memorial and see just how close the Confederates where to breaking the line there.

Quoting Slider (Reply 13):
Didn't they have a big fight about building an observation tower a few years ago?



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 14):
Yes they did. I was at Gettysburg a couple of years ago and did not see such a thing. I assume it did not get built.

Actually guys there was an observation tower there fromt he early sixties until about 6 years ago now. That is what you are thinking of. It was built on private property so for the longest time the Park could do nothing about it. However, in the fight you guy remember the owners agreed to sell the tower and it was imploded. Much to the residents and Park lovers releif.

I dont see why a Casino can't be built outside of town far from anything historically important. Like South of town where that huge Boyd's Bear Country store is located out of sight and out of mind for those who care about Gettysburg's historical integraty.


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1349 times:

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 16):
I think you misunderstood me. I don't dispute Gettysburg's importance to the outcome of the war. The double hammer blow of Gettysburg with the loss of the flower of the ANV and the loss of Vicksburg a day later signalled the begining of the end of the Confederacy. However, as shown by some comments after yours, people think that Gettysburg IS the preeminent battle. Most scholarship (James McPherson of Princeton and the GOD of Civil War historians) actually point to Antietam as the true turning point of the war. And In studing thier arguments I have come to agree.

Gettysburg has captured the imagination of the American public to a degree that over inflates its reletive importance to the war. IMO Vicksburg was strategically more important to the end of the Confederacy. In one fell swoop the Confederacy lost slightly more men at Vickburg than they did at Gettysburg.

Agree completely. I'm reading a new bio of Grant, and it supports the importance of Vicksburg and the battles out west.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 16):
I suggest you guys look beyond Little Round Top. On the second day 1500 confederate troops where about 600 yards from Meade's headquaters and the ambulances and artillery park in the rear. It happend in the CENTER of the line which had been stripped of troops to fight int he Wheatfeild. Handcock had ordered reinforcements and they were lest that a quarter of a mile away. But in between Meand's HQ and 1500 Confederates where the 262 men of the First Minnesota. Hancock needed 5 minutes to get those reinforcements in place. He ordered Col Corvill to charge those 1500 of WIlcox's brigade. They did. And less than 70 of the First Minnesota came back. But they gave Handcock 15 minutes. and the gap in the line was closed. Goto the PA memorial and see just how close the Confederates where to breaking the line there.

Agree again. LRT was important, but only a part of several important battles that took place over the three days.

Now, with regard to the casino? It is an abomination...


User currently offlineCharlienorth From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1122 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1336 times:

It's not just Gettysburg,too many Civil War sites are disappearing under developments.

User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1323 times:

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 18):
too many Civil War sites are disappearing under developments.

I really liked what has been done with Shiloh. If you had a trapdoor Springfield or a Spencer in your hand you might fall into a timewarp there.

But can you imagine trying to build a strip mall near Petersburg or Richmond or Winchester or Atlanta or a hundred other places? Every scoop of earth must have minié balls or uniform buttons or even bits of bone.

[Edited 2006-07-04 21:19:09]


Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineGo3Team From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3267 posts, RR: 16
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1315 times:

I've been to the area where they are going to build the casino. It is definately not next door to the battlefields. There are 2 or 3 hotels almost built near where the casino is going to be. There is a run down vacant car dealership that is an eyesore to the area. I hear no one complaining about that. I'm not trying to shit on the battlefields, I just think that this is much ado about nothing. There is a fair amount of distance between the two.


Yay Pudding!
User currently offlineGQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1301 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 19):
I really liked what has been done with Shiloh.

Aye, that was really nice. Of course, I just had to visit that site when I lived in that neck of the woods...it is my namesake...  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlinePSA727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 974 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1282 times:

What makes me laugh is the pro-casino side saying that this will add
to the number of visitors to the battlefield site.

Yeah, that's exactly what gamblers love to do on their "down-time".

Could be worse though...a Super Wal-Mart!



fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
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