Cadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9069 posts, RR: 42 Posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1108 times:
Ok, so I want to get a bit more power from my car, and a friend suggested a K&N airfilter. But I dont feel like dropping 50 bucks for one if its a peice of shite. So does anyone have any experiance with them? Or should I just stick with my god ol Delco standard?
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
NKP S2 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1714 posts, RR: 7 Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1083 times:
They're good filters, for all the reasons noted above. I like the cleanability. I assume you're talking about just the element. The whole kit can help performance-wise, provided everything else on the car/engine is maximized ( and I'm not talking about carbon fiber cam covers/triple-deck spoilers/neon pink spark plug wires/five-point race harnesses/festooned with stickers Honda Civic...or anything else ) to the point the stock air intake ducting/filter becomes restrictive. ( "...up to 30 hp increase...!" ) Power increase will be commensurate with the power to begin with. Other than the sound, you will not notice much if any of an honest "seat of the pants" power increase on a dead stock vehicle. Same goes for a "chip" ( or a flash...reprogramming ) for your ECM/PCM, other than a turbocharged vehicle. Anybody tells you any different: They're shitting you.
Aer Lingus From Ireland, joined Mar 2001, 519 posts, RR: 6 Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1073 times:
I use the K&N stock filter and its quite good. The car struggles to go up a steep slope with a normal paper filter. With the K&N the car goes up the same slope with a slightly faster speed.
I would recommend the use of an induction kit with the K&N filter because the stock filters are quite good.
The only downside of an K&N I think is that the filter has a number of see through gaps on the filtering element.
NIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1071 times:
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2): I swear by them . . . I hve used K&N in all my vehicles for years.
Same here, they are great and actually save you money. When I brought my new car I was lucky enough to get two filter elements cheap. So instead of buying new airfilters these two will probably last the life of the car. I always have a clean one ready to go when the other has been in the car for 7000 miles and I just oil it up and slap it in.
ANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1071 times:
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 5): Same here, they are great and actually save you money.
A lot of $$$ . . . filters for that 7.3l Diesel in my BAFDT are $56US each up here. Replace that twice a year and you're dropping over $100 a year on a paper POS filter. ONE K&N filter, with the recharge kit, cost me $70US here.
It's a no brainer really . . .
Ought to make SATX happy too - I'm doing my bit to burn less fuel.
CFCUQ From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 707 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 1060 times:
We sell lots of K&N's here. No one has ever bitched that they didn't get bang for their buck. However, the vehicle manufacturers do not reccomend them, stating that the oil may cause problems with sensors (mass airflow, M.A.P., M.A.T., etc) on modern fuel injected engines. We have never heard of anyone actually having a failure attributed to the air filter, and the O.E., of course, sells their own paper elements.
AA61Hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13946 posts, RR: 63 Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1038 times:
MrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 818 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1037 times:
Quoting CFCUQ (Reply 7): However, the vehicle manufacturers do not reccomend them, stating that the oil may cause problems with sensors (mass airflow, M.A.P., M.A.T., etc) on modern fuel injected engines. We have never heard of anyone actually having a failure attributed to the air filter, and the O.E., of course, sells their own paper elements.
Before someone modifies such a simple part in their car, you should ask yourself, if the OEM didn't do it, is there a good reason why they didn't?
Turns out there are several good reasons why you shouldn't install an oiled air filter like a K&N:
-As mentioned above, the oil plays havoc with the mass airflow sensors in newer engines. Since these sensors are essentially small pieces of heated wire, the oil will alter the temperature of the sensor, or even worse, burn on the sensor, leaving coke deposits on the wire. A good friend of mine is a mechanic at a local Honda dealership, and he can't keep track of how many MAFs he's replaced because they've been fouled as a direct result of a K&N filter.
-Any time you reduce the restriction on an oil filter, you increase the amount of dirt that gets into your engine. Ultimately, the dirt that gets into your engine ends up in your engine oil. Add this to the fact that manufacturers are increasing oil change intervals to as high as 15,000 miles, and you can see why this is could be a problem. Unless you religiously change your oil every 2000-3000 miles (which most people don't), you are prematurely wearing your engine out with this dirt contamination.
-Any gains realized are much smaller than most people would have hoped for. The most I have ever heard of anyone gaining by installing an oiled air filter is 8 whp and 8 ft. lb. of torque (the car was an LS1-powered Camaro Z28, which already would pull 260 hp at the wheels).
I've built a few engines so far in my life, and I can tell you that there are many other easy ways of getting more power out of an engine without having to resort to one of these things.
VVVVVV An oiled air filter is one where you put some light oil on a cotton filter element to collect dirt, instead of collecting it on a traditional dry paper element.VVVVVVV
AAFLT1871 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2331 posts, RR: 20 Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1022 times:
DeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2821 posts, RR: 5 Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1019 times:
Quoting MrChips (Reply 9): (the car was an LS1-powered Camaro Z28, which already would pull 260 hp at the wheels).
Yikes, that has a 305 horsepower engine at least! Whats up with that? Our 2000 T/A dynos at 319. Does your flag have anything to do with it? WHP????
Anyhoo, all this stuff about filters is just like the whole air-induction crapola. It is a myth. John Delorean sp? chuckeld about that until the day he died, knowing hood scoops do NOTHIN unless they are away from the airflow of the hood by a large distance, for reference, look at pro street dragsters and where thier snorkles take in air. The fact race cars must "snorkle" should tell you something.
If you dont have enough power, reprogram the computer, change the gear ratio, polish and port the heads and intake manifold, add equal length headers and high performance cat back exaust. Or just put in a better engine. Whatever you do, dont risk crap getting into the engine, scratched cylindar walls will be the result. And dont do anything that messes with the sensors, that is never good.
No one will notice a few hp give or take, no one. Make major well planned and researched changes or none at all.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
MrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 818 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1012 times:
Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 12): Yikes, that has a 305 horsepower engine at least! Whats up with that? Our 2000 T/A dynos at 319. Does your flag have anything to do with it? WHP????
260 hp at the wheels, not at the crankshaft/flywheel. This number takes into account the losses in the drivetrain. Also, the engine had almost 120,000 km on it at the time, so a good chunk of the loss can be attributed to that as well.
Cadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9069 posts, RR: 42 Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1011 times:
Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 12): No one will notice a few hp give or take, no one. Make major well planned and researched changes or none at all.
Im just trying to make a chevy go a bit quicker and save some gas milage. Not run the Indy 500...
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
Seriously, if you're looking for SPEED, you're barking up the wrong tree. Mileage, performance, etc . . . that's the ticket with the K&N, it's not about rabbit starts etc . . .
Go3Team From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3227 posts, RR: 29 Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1005 times:
You are not really going to notice any hp gains from just a K&N.
Quoting MrChips (Reply 9): As mentioned above, the oil plays havoc with the mass airflow sensors in newer engines. Since these sensors are essentially small pieces of heated wire, the oil will alter the temperature of the sensor, or even worse, burn on the sensor, leaving coke deposits on the wire. A good friend of mine is a mechanic at a local Honda dealership, and he can't keep track of how many MAFs he's replaced because they've been fouled as a direct result of a K&N filter.
Sounds like those Honda Ricers didn't clean their filters properly. The only time I have heard of MAF failures, the owner didn't properly recharge their K&N. They left too much oil on the filter.
Quoting MrChips (Reply 9): -Any gains realized are much smaller than most people would have hoped for. The most I have ever heard of anyone gaining by installing an oiled air filter is 8 whp and 8 ft. lb. of torque (the car was an LS1-powered Camaro Z28, which already would pull 260 hp at the wheels).
That sounds about right, but any LS1 powered Camaro dynoing 260 has a problem. The one I had dynoed 291 3 days off the show room floor. Once it was properly broken it dynoed 319, which for a basically stock automatic, is pretty good.
Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 12): Yikes, that has a 305 horsepower engine at least!
Thats for flywheel rated horsepower. You are going to lose about 10% thru a manual, and around 15% for an automatic. Given those figures, my "305hp" motor was actually doing around 368-369hp at the flywheel. The LS1 was highly underated for the Camaro, Chevrolet didn't want the Corvetter to be overshadowed by the Camaro. Stock for stock, the LS1 Camaro had more rwhp than the LS1 Corvette - due to the Corvettes independant rear suspension.
Cadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9069 posts, RR: 42 Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1003 times:
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15): Ha Ha Ha . . .buy a Ford, problem solved.
Almost did. 1998 Ford Crown Vic P71 inspectors car with spotlight but the thought of burning thru a tank in less then a week was less then appealing. oh well
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 15): Mileage, performance, etc . . . that's the ticket with the K&N, it's not about rabbit starts etc . . .
Oh, dont get me wrong, im not expecting to make a 140 hp car do 200, just want to make it a bit quicker when im on the highway and I feel like overtaking Dorko in the volvo station wagon with a damp canoe on the roof.
Note to Castleisland, your volvo is not included in the previous mentioned statement. As you are just a chowd
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
KevinL1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 53 Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 972 times:
Quoting NKP S2 (Reply 3): Other than the sound, you will not notice much if any of an honest "seat of the pants" power increase on a dead stock vehicle. Same goes for a "chip" ( or a flash...reprogramming ) for your ECM/PCM, other than a turbocharged vehicle. Anybody tells you any different: They're shitting you.
NKP S2 speaks truth. Any increase in horsepower or torque will occur near the top of the power curve and last for maybe 2 seconds or until the curve drops off.
Quoting CFCUQ (Reply 7): However, the vehicle manufacturers do not recommend them, stating that the oil may cause problems with sensors (mass airflow, M.A.P., M.A.T., etc) on modern fuel injected engines. We have never heard of anyone actually having a failure attributed to the air filter, and the O.E., of course, sells their own paper elements.
I see MAF contamination all of the time. Not only from reusable filters but also from PCV vapor condensation. MAF failure is typically caused by knuckleheads cleaning out the MAF sensor filament with Carburetor spray or other harmful chemicals. A reusable air filter does not cause the MAF sensor to fail, however when the sensor filament becomes coated (contaminated) it causes the MAF to send false air flow information to the ECM.
Quoting MrChips (Reply 9): Turns out there are several good reasons why you shouldn't install an oiled air filter like a K&N:
-As mentioned above, the oil plays havoc with the mass airflow sensors in newer engines. Since these sensors are essentially small pieces of heated wire, the oil will alter the temperature of the sensor, or even worse, burn on the sensor, leaving coke deposits on the wire. A good friend of mine is a mechanic at a local Honda dealership, and he
MrChips....your friend speaks truth in regards to vehicles equipped with a "Hot Wire" Mass Air Flow Sensor. Not all engines utilize the Hot Wire MAF and some (Many Diesels) do not utilize a MAF at all. A reusable air filter is just fine for use on Carbureted engines, throttle body injected (TBI) engines or any other application that does not utilize a "Hot Wire" MAF sensor.
Quoting MrChips (Reply 9): The most I have ever heard of anyone gaining by installing an oiled air filter is 8 whp and 8 ft. lb. of torque (the car was an LS1-powered Camaro Z28, which already would pull 260 hp at the wheels).
Sounds about right for an SLP intake system. ANY increase in torque or HP will occur during a very narrow band on the power curve and will usually be at an RPM range beyond street use.
Quoting Go3Team (Reply 16): The only time I have heard of MAF failures, the owner didn't properly recharge their K&N. They left too much oil on the filter.
Again, the K&N does not cause MAF failure. It contaminates the sensor filament creating inaccurate air flow data. It's the boneheads who clean the Hot Wire MAF sensor with Carb Spray or other harmful chemicals that cause MAF failure.
The K&N filter and intake system is most beneficial when installed on Carbureted engines, most Diesel engines (non-MAF), Fleet and industrial applications.
I remember back in the late 80's when Hot Wire MAF sensors first came out. We were seeing a lot of "Check Engine" or "Service Engine Soon" lights due to the Fram premium "double element" air filters. They would tend to cause a delay in MAF sensor data response. The ECM would see the throttle position, RPM and vacuum readings were inconsistent with the MAF sensor readings and it would throw a "MAF sensor out of range" fault code.
Quoting Cadet57 (Thread starter): should I just stick with my god ol Delco standard?
That depends on what car / engine you have. You never said and no one has asked.
NKP S2 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1714 posts, RR: 7 Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 958 times:
Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 12): Anyhoo, all this stuff about filters is just like the whole air-induction crapola. It is a myth. John Delorean sp? chuckeld about that until the day he died, knowing hood scoops do NOTHIN unless they are away from the airflow of the hood by a large distance, for reference, look at pro street dragsters and where thier snorkles take in air.
Fairly true. Yeah, it was Delorean ( and Jim Wangers ) who said the Ram effect of "Ram Air" type intake scoops did not get realized on most cars ( unless they large and/or at the very front of the hood...some ram air systems were very effective ) due to the fact they were within the boundary layer restriction of airflow against the hood. They DID however did increase power by getting cooler air to the carburetor. It has been documented on the drag strip by many ( including Pontiac guru Milt Schornack ) that their "Ram Air" systems were worth a tenth of a second and an extra mile-an-hour trap speeds, which equates to about 12-15 HP in the 3500-3800 lbs vehicles in question. Most really wouldn't notice it by the "seat of the pants" on the street though, but it could win you a race ripping through the gears to your shift point.
Of course the value on the street of a cold air kit on a stock ( no internal engine mods ) econobox or average sedan would be barely perceptable.
AAFLT1871 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2331 posts, RR: 20 Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 951 times:
Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 17): I feel like overtaking Dorko in the volvo station wagon with a damp canoe on the roof
Well if it is a Volvo 850 turbo wagon, you will not overtake that.
Jetset7E7 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 1059 posts, RR: 21 Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 943 times:
I have a K&N 57i Air Filter on my 1.2 Fiat Punto, makes it go a little big quicker, not much improvement as its only a 1.2! But the sound it makes, they are worth buying just for them! My next car (106) I'll be purchasing a K&N for that! So yeah go for it!
Mark
Retrofitted Blended Winglets - The Future Is On The Wing
LY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 13 Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 935 times:
Quoting MrChips (Reply 9): Any gains realized are much smaller than most people would have hoped for. The most I have ever heard of anyone gaining by installing an oiled air filter is 8 whp and 8 ft. lb. of torque (the car was an LS1-powered Camaro Z28, which already would pull 260 hp at the wheels).
Amen to that... on a more run-of-the-mill car than the Z28, say an average 4 banger or a small V6, 5hp is pretty realistic AFAIK. Same goes for a cat-back exhaust. In other words no significant performance gains from either one of those two (very popular) mods. However, if you're going to go for more significant engine modifications, improving the air flow in and out of the engine are very good ideas IMO. Should help you get the most out of your other engine 'improvements'.
KevinL1011 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 53 Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 914 times:
Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 22): chevy lumina with a 3.1 6 banger
If it's a 1994 or newer, then you do have a "Hot Wire" MAF and I would not recommend a reusable air filter element. The best bet is to use the cheapest single layer paper element possible (Purolator) and replace it every 10K miles. DO NOT spend for a premium line or gimmick "Air Hog" type filter.
The only modification I would attempt is an exhaust system upgrade. Not that you'll get a bunch of horsepower out of it but relieving some exhaust backpressure from that long, skinny stock system will allow the engine spool up a little easier through the 2500 - 3500 RPM range and will help expel exhaust heat quicker.
G.M. offered a "Euro Sport" package on the Lumina which was basically a trim package but also had suspension and exhaust upgrades. See if you can procure a Lumina "Euro Sport" muffler and tailpipe assembly in good condition (do not pay more than $50.00) from a wrecking yard and have a muffler shop install it with larger diameter tubing. Do not buy an expensive "Flow Master" muffler. I recommend a less expensive "Magna-Flow" muffler which is quieter and offers the same benefit. Either way you'll need replace everything from the catalyst and back with a larger diameter tubing for this to be effective. I would say you're looking at about $300 for everything.
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25 Jafa39: The bottom line...if ya wanna go faster, buy a bigger car. If ya wanna tune your motor, best to take it apart. The best low tech mod I ever found, and
26 Cptkrell: Been fooling with these types of mods for years off and on and agree with those whose opinions are you won't realize much of a performance gain. The e
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but the thought of burning thru a tank in less then a week was less then appealing. oh well
I remember back in the late 80's when Hot Wire MAF sensors first came out. We were seeing a lot of "Check Engine" or "Service Engine Soon" lights due to the Fram premium "double element" air filters. They would tend to cause a delay in MAF sensor data response. The ECM would see the throttle position, RPM and vacuum readings were inconsistent with the MAF sensor readings and it would throw a "MAF sensor out of range" fault code.
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