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Four Children And The Cost Of War (CNN)  
User currently offlineSFOMEX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2905 times:

I'm not ashamed to let you know that I cried when I read this on CNN. Before keep finding comfort in the words "collateral damage" or "war is always dirty", you should see what war really is for the people, the good people in both sides of the conflict. Take a look at the pictures and tell me if you still believe that these children are just part of the cost of war and we should move on.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/23/perry.tyre/index.html

I truly hope that the decent people of Israel and its government will realize that fighting the terrorist scum is one thing, killing thousands of civilians is other. They have the support of most of the world on its war on terror, but it seems that they are going way too far. A great country like Israel should never commit these barbaric acts against innocent civilians. After all, they are supposed to represent the best of the Middle East.

82 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePulkovokiwi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2899 times:

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):

Israel representing the best of the Middle East? Forgive me while I choke.


User currently offlineFly727 From Mexico, joined Jul 2003, 1789 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2892 times:

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
Take a look at the pictures and tell me if you still believe that these children are just part of the cost of war and we should move on.

 checkmark 

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 1):
Israel representing the best of the Middle East? Forgive me while I choke.

There have been far enough threads about who's right and who's not. This isn't one of them. The pictures on the link are tragic enough to forget sides for a minute and realize how severely this is affecting society and particularly, innocent children.

RM.



There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2886 times:

NEGOTIATE DONT BOMB - and it cuts both ways, just like a two edged sword seems to cut.

User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2249 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2876 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):
NEGOTIATE DONT BOMB - and it cuts both ways, just like a two edged sword seems to cut.

When UK was threatened by V2 rockets did they negotiate?
No, they bombed the shit out of german cities.

For each rocket in Haifa 10 buildings in southern Beyrut's Hezbollah stronghold will go down. Israel has no intention to let hezbollah exercize and maintain their rocket arsenal. Since 2000, when Israel retreated to the international border line (acknowledged by the UN), hezbollah (with Syrian and Iranian help and financing) has stockpiled 13000 rockets. So far more than 2000 have been fired on exclusevely residential areas in northern Israel - resulting in civilian casualties only. I would also like to remind you that the first rockets were fired during the the abduction of two Israeli soldiers - before the IDF has started its offensive. Hezbollah is a strong organization with substantiate backup - their power should not be understimated. These are not kids with rocks, therefore a proper military offensive should , and is, being used.



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlinePulkovokiwi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2871 times:

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 4):

As usual you continue to live in the past. We are in 2006 not 1943. You are deliberating killing Lebanese children with the hope that this will make the Lebanese civilian population turn on Hizbollah. Your countrys military strategy is so fucked up and you are going to pay the cost by your countrys eventual very sound defeat.


User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2249 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2870 times:

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 5):
As usual you continue to live in the past

"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlinePulkovokiwi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2864 times:

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 6):

Anyone tell you retribution is counter-productive?


User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2249 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2864 times:

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 7):
Anyone tell you retribution is counter-productive?

Let's agree to disagree.



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2860 times:

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 4):
When UK was threatened by V2 rockets did they negotiate?
No, they bombed the shit out of german cities.

Glad you have learned so much in the following 62 years. As a matter of fact you dont even seem to have learned the original facts too well either. The V2 had a 1000 kg warhead, rather different from current Hez missiles. The area raids were not associated with the V2 campaign either in prospect or to defeat it.

The UK mounted attacks on the V2 sites. Look at the history of 617 squadron for example although most of the attacks used smaller and more agile planes.

But back to the present. So you dont want to negotiate, OK dont act surprised if someone does as you recommend. The double edged sword remember.


User currently offlinePulkovokiwi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2855 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):

Very well put my Australian friend! Have a VB or XXXX on me!


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2855 times:

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 4):
When UK was threatened by V2 rockets did they negotiate?

The frequency of bombings by Irish terrorists have decreased massively since we sat down and talked with them. This took compromises on both sides.

The African National Congress is now a legitimate political party after decades of terrorist activities.

Its proven to work.


User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2249 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2853 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
The UK mounted attacks on the V2 sites.

yeah, right. Perhaps you should see the photos of German cities in 1944.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
As a matter of fact you dont even seem to have learned the original facts too well eithe

Neither did you. hezbollah's arsenal include long range Iranian rockets capable of hitting Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
The UK mounted attacks on the V2 sites

As does Israel. Unlike the germans , hezbollah has a habit of storing their rockets in mosques and other civilian facilities.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
OK dont act surprised if someone does as you recommend. The double edged sword remember.

We are ready for that. Somehow we've managed pretty good so far without advisories from Australia.



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlinePulkovokiwi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2853 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 11):

Another excellent post-keep them comin!


User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2249 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2853 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 11):
The frequency of bombings by Irish terrorists have decreased massively since we sat down and talked with them

Did they fired rockets on you? IRA example maybe good for PLO, not hamas and hezbollah.



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2839 times:

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 14):

Did they fired rockets on you? IRA example maybe good for PLO, not hamas and hezbollah.

Yes they did. Many pipe bomb, mortar and rocket attacks both in the provinces and on the mainland.

There were many attacks against Heathrow in this manner as well.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2837 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 11):
The frequency of bombings by Irish terrorists have decreased massively since we sat down and talked with them. This took compromises on both sides.

Big difference. The IRA was not attempting the elimination of British from Ireland. IRA was also well versed in telling the authorities that a bomb was coming and getting the civilians out of the way.

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 5):
You are deliberating killing Lebanese children

First, you fail to mention that Hezbollah is doing the same. Second, what if this is 'Jenin Massacre' syndrome again. If you dont believe my words, read the UN report about it.

"The battle attracted widespread international attention because journalists, particularly in the UK, falsely reported that a massacre of Palestinians had taken place during the fighting, and that hundreds, or even thousands, of bodies had been secretly buried in mass graves by the IDF, allegations that were later shown to be baseless."

"The United Nations report said that the number of Palestinians killed was at least 52, [22 of whom were civilians, according to Human Rights Watch (HRW). 23 Israeli soldiers were killed."

Did anybody ever apologize to Israel for such accussations? No.

So forgive me if I wont completely believe what the casualties are until this conflict is over and an independent body write a report.

Quoting SFOMEX (Thread starter):
killing thousands of civilians is other.

"At least 381 people have been killed in Lebanon, including 20 soldiers and 11 Hezbollah fighters, according to security officials."

Please, no need to exaggerate.


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2827 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
Big difference. The IRA was not attempting the elimination of British from Ireland. IRA was also well versed in telling the authorities that a bomb was coming and getting the civilians out of the way.

The stated aim of the IRA was infact to return Northern Ireland to self rule, free it from British rule. Also it was a proxy war between Catholics and Protestants, with each side wishing to destroy the other.

So yes, the IRA was attempting the elimination of British from Ireland.

And the fact that they made warnings (not always) was the only thing in their favour - their targets were political.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
First, you fail to mention that Hezbollah is doing the same

Yet again, I say the following:

You cannot claim the higher path and then complain when you are held to that higher path.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2824 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 17):
You cannot claim the higher path and then complain when you are held to that higher path.

Hezbollah is directly aiming their missiles towards civilian areas. You can claim the same for Israel, but there is no proof. And as noted above with the Jenin Massacre, military actions casualties by Israel have a horrible habit of being exaggerated by large factors.

Here is an interesting story of this 'massacre' by Time Mag:
http://www.time.com/time/2002/jenin/story.html

Let me show some interesting qoutes:

"Palestinian officials had said that as many as 800 had been killed. As is the case in the Middle East, the figure was inflated to fit local beliefs of Israeli depravity and Palestinian victimization"

"A senior Palestinian military officer tells Time it was probably the gunmen's own booby traps that buried some civilians and fighters alive"

Again, forgive me if I am right now a little skeptical of the casualty claims coming from Hezbollah.


User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5685 posts, RR: 32
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2817 times:

If Britain had retaliated here the way Israel is retaliating in Lebanon we would be still embroiled in serious conflict on these islands with thousands more dead. Instead we have had peace, not perfect, but it is peace.

User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2804 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 19):
If Britain had retaliated here the way Israel is retaliating in Lebanon we would be still embroiled in serious conflict on these islands with thousands more dead

Has Hezbollah done this yet?
"On July 28, 2005, the Provisional IRA Army Council announced an end to its armed campaign, stating that it would work to achieve its aims using "purely political and democratic programmes through exclusively peaceful means" and that "IRA Volunteers must not engage in any other activities whatsoever".

Plus the Irish never had in their aims the explicit extermination of a country.


User currently offlinePulkovokiwi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2803 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 20):

Where is it written that Hizbollah has?


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2800 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 20):
Has Hezbollah done this yet?

That announcement didnt come suddenly and out of the blue, there was a massive political build up to it, including several ceasefires. The IRA still had an active campaign during the peace talks and did revert to terrorism when the talks break down.

Currently the biggest threat to the peace in Ireland is not the terrorist groups imho but the Reverend Iain Paisley, who is literally demanding everything under the sun and claiming nothing that Sin Fein or the IRA does is good enough. He wants the entire process under his terms and his terms only.


User currently offlinePulkovokiwi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2799 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 22):

Didnt realise that absolute nutter was still around.


User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5685 posts, RR: 32
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2782 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 20):
Has Hezbollah done this yet?
"On July 28, 2005, the Provisional IRA Army Council announced an end to its armed campaign, stating that it would work to achieve its aims using "purely political and democratic programmes through exclusively peaceful means" and that "IRA Volunteers must not engage in any other activities whatsoever".

Plus the Irish never had in their aims the explicit extermination of a country.

Does it matter whether the extermination of a country is the aim when innocent civilians are being bombed and murdered? Also, there is no way that a terrorist orgnisation the size of the IRA (NOT the Irish -- the IRA represent a very small minority of us, and most of them are Northern Irish) could possibly have achieved the extermination of the United Kingdom.

RichardPrice is right when he says there was a massive political build-up, over a decade and a half of talks, before any sort of settlement was reached.

The ONLY solution is political. I wonder how many future suicide bombers are being created at the moment.


25 Post contains images Scbriml : Er, just look at the latest photos from Lebanon. Oh dear, we flattened your apartments/school/hospital? Never mind, I'm sure Hezbollah have thought a
26 Emirates773ER : I would never asked such a question after seeing a 8 year old boy lying in a hospital bed convulsing in shock with blood coming from his eyes. If you
27 Baroque : RP and BB have answered the questions in relation to the IRA. I know of at least one other user on A.net who was on the receiving end of the V campai
28 LY7E7 : Ineed so. It als o worked for PLO, excpet Arafat chose not to wait until the negotiatins over and started the second intifada. That being said, Israe
29 Baroque : You pretty much got that right. Dear oh me, your short term memory must be going. In reply 12 you berated me about V2s and then asked if "they" fired
30 LY7E7 : Wrong: The goals of the IRA can be summed up by this excerpt of the Irish Declaration of Independence, written in 1919: "We solemnly declare foreign
31 EWRCabincrew : This volley is going nowhere and solving nothing, let alone sticking to the topic. Looks more like a huge pissing match. Suggest thread lock or deleti
32 Baroque : Dearie me, must remember not to be charitable. You remember I wrote "pretty much". I did that because your text was so tangled it would have been imp
33 SlamClick : Where is your criticism of Hezbollah for deliberately hiding among women and children? Where is your acknowledgement of Lebanon's share of the blame
34 Post contains images SFOMEX : I doubt that someone "in agreement with Syria, Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas" would endorse my statement calling Israel a great country and the best of t
35 SlamClick : You have chosen. So noted. Your solution is what?
36 SFOMEX :
37 Post contains links AndesSMF : Yes, they have, but I was thinking deep and hard for hours about this. The troubles between Ireland and the UK have gone on for how long? Was it not
38 SlamClick : You still have no words of scorn for suicide bombers for LEBANESE missiles raining down on Israel. You still have no tears for Israeli children. You
39 SFOMEX : BS. You only read what you want to read. Once again, let me copy and paste what I posted in the first place: The words "both sides" are clear. The CN
40 Bobster2 : That's enough. Almost all the posts in this thread are off topic. Then the OP puts the icing on the cake by making personal attacks against one perso
41 SFOMEX : Wow... I called his support of Israel blind and his accusation against me of taking sides with Lebanon childish. If that is considered a personal att
42 AndesSMF : Please, I hate repeating myself. There have been plenty of mainstream media outlets that have been complicit in accusing Israel of committing 'war cr
43 Post contains links SFOMEX : I see your point AndesSMF and it has merits. Israel is not a darling of the liberal media. Yet, considering the context of the incident it seems that
44 Fumanchewd : What should they negotiate? A cease fire? The root problem will still be there. Israel or the Lebanese need to remove the root of the problem, Hezbol
45 Post contains links AndesSMF : The problem about pointing out what they have done wrong is that this criticism is easily used by Hezbollah and its supporters to justify their actio
46 LY7E7 : Apparently you are incapable of having a normal discussion. Perhaps mutual ignoring is the right way .
47 Post contains images QR332 : Oh the irony, this is coming from an Israeli Jew! This is in no way meant to be an anti-semetic post, but Jews have suffered a lot in the past at the
48 QR332 : So in other words, the world should just shut up and look the other way? I can just see the glee in Israel's eyes when America didn't even call for a
49 Post contains images LY7E7 : See who has the nerves to speak about propaganda Sharon, as every Israeli citizen had and has a full righ to visit a pace holy to his/her religion. S
50 AndesSMF : QR332, I understand your feelings and you are certainly justified for some if not all of them. But let me point out several things. There is a big dif
51 Post contains images QR332 : Since when is Al Aqsa holy to Judaism? When Sharon visited the Haram Al Sharif, he knew exactly what the reaction would be like - he is probably amon
52 Fumanchewd : And this is the crux of the situation. Arab antipathy at Israeal without admitting their sympathy for Hezbollah. It is easier for the irrational to c
53 LY7E7 : Since the time (appx 4000 years ago) when king Solomon has built the temple on that same place. Since appx. 5000 years ago when Avraham and Itzhak ep
54 Klaus : By the direction this is going, Israel has learned absolutely nothing from the continuous failure of their settlement and brutal occupation policies.
55 SlamClick : Well Hezbollah is an enemy combatant so 'part of' Lebanon is going to be killed or destroyed. We can sort out percentages later.
56 Post contains images Klaus : By that logic, a palestinian or now lebanese nuke on Israel would be fully justified as well. This failed strategy has only intensified and escalated
57 Post contains links Baroque : For a view of proportionality in relation to the current conflict given by a legal person go to: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/perspective/stories/2006/169
58 AGM100 : Yes it would. Thats war , use what you have and get it over with. And just how long do you think it would take for them to decide to use it ??. In my
59 LY7E7 : Wrong. PLO would be the example of organization , that had to chose wether to be eliminated by israel or to negotiate and to rcognize Israel. Others
60 Post contains images Klaus : Israel as an entity doesn't give a crap about non-israelis dying, especially not about "arabs". Individual israelis often think differently, but that
61 AGM100 : Again in my view, your view is twisted. The West has not declared a Jihad against the Arab world. Sure the argument can be made that we fan the flame
62 Post contains images RJpieces : And the theories of deterrence and war--developed over centuries--have changed? Mistakes, yes, mistakes. At least you acknowledge that they are mista
63 Baroque : That comment is worth bottling. I like it. And apparently, 2006 is the year of extra special opportunities. The eleventh commandment apparently reads
64 Post contains images Klaus : ...and Israel has made it abundantly clear that even their cooperation never changed anything about them getting treated like dirt. Stupid. Oh, Germa
65 Klaus : That is both true and not true... just as not nearly all muslims are on a jihad against the west. a) The "modern" concept of jihad was only born in r
66 LY7E7 : Apparently not enough. Well, that's their problem. We don't have a choice either. Hezbollah's SRBM threat has to be eliminated in any way, Complete n
67 Post contains images Klaus : Humans have a tendency to react to that kind of thing - and you have your own collective experience with how that usually turns out. Not well, to put
68 Post contains images SFOMEX : I do believe they are mistakes. The IDF is a professional army and I'm sure it's subjected to the same rules that any other western army. That's the
69 TNNH : Israel needs to be tough in this conflict b/c Hezb exploited Israel's 2000 retreat from Southern Lebanon. I'm surprised any of you, would ask Israel t
70 AGM100 : Pretty much sums up the whole mess doesn't it ? Well like I have always said. If I have to choose I would choose to have Israel as my neighbor. What
71 ETStar : Hold on, let me go put on my laughing mask.
72 RJpieces : Please name me one Arab contribution to the world community in the last century...Literally, just one, please! Israel has achieved more than most cou
73 Baroque : And as you put it later in that post, cut your crap too. You really have not learned much from the much vaunted history if you don't realise that the
74 Baroque : You must tell us more about Klaus's contributions to studies on the divinity (or otherwise it seems) of Christ. They may come as a surprise to him to
75 Post contains images QR332 : Gee, lets nuke them while were at it, their wasting our oxygen supply! Arab countries haven't contributed anything for very good reasons which I am p
76 Legoguy : Many people here seem to think that since Hezbollah is firing rockets and missiles into Israel, it makes it perfectly OK to return rockets and missile
77 Fumanchewd : Yet they have been operating freely in the region for several decades without any resistance from the Leb people or government. Your 87% is incorrect
78 QANTAS077 : ever heard of a continent called Africa? Somalia, Sudan, Rwanda....genocide in Africa is on a far greater scale than the Nazi's inflicted on the Jews
79 Legoguy : I am just quoting 87% from another thread....ok maybe not the exact amount but a large percentage of the population is against Hebollah. Israel think
80 RJpieces : They are still people, they don't deserve death QR..I would never say that. But to pretend they live in functional socities is laughable. If you want
81 Baroque : Dates! Stupid questions deserve a stupid answer but I will try and do better. These worthless folk have managed to run the 3rd 4th and 5th largest oi
82 QR332 : Ah, now your true colours are trying to show... how are Arab societes not functional, RJ? -Colonialism is one of the most important factors for this
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