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Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread  
User currently offlineModerators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 514 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4327 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

This thread is for discussion and debate of the political issues revolving around the current Middle East conflict.

YOU ARE NOT TO POST INSULTS, ABUSE, INSINUATIONS ABOUT USERS, FLAMEBAIT, RACISM, INCITEMENTS TO VIOLENCE OR ANY OTHER THING WHICH WOULD BE IN BREACH OF THE DISCUSSION FORUM RULES.

Any posts which are removed from this thread for breaching the above condition will result in an AUTOMATIC 2 WEEK BAN, with the possibility of the ban being extended where the moderators feel the breach warrants it. You have been warned.

Please also see these other threads:
Official Middle East Situation Report Thread (by Moderators Aug 1 2006 in Non Aviation)
Official Sympathy For Israel Thread (by Moderators Aug 1 2006 in Non Aviation)
Official Sympathy For Lebanon Thread (by Moderators Aug 1 2006 in Non Aviation)

[Edited 2006-08-01 03:39:40]


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201 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGilligan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4202 times:

Quoting Moderators (Thread starter):
YOU ARE NOT TO POST INSULTS, ABUSE, INSINUATIONS ABOUT USERS, FLAMEBAIT, RACISM, INCITEMENTS TO VIOLENCE OR ANY OTHER THING WHICH WOULD BE IN BREACH OF THE DISCUSSION FORUM RULES.

Well this will be a short discussion.


User currently offlinePiercey From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 2233 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4176 times:

Alright, my opinion is this. Both sides screwed up, big time. Lebanon screwed up by not controlling Hezbollah. Israel screwed up by boasting they have smart bombs and have killed a rediculas amount of civilians. Yes, Lebanon is a young gov't that doesn't have complete control yet, and yes Hezbollah launches from houses that Israel must hit, but both countries have broken eggs.

At the same time, it's hard to pick sides. Israel has been taking this shite from Hezbullah for long enough, but at the same time Israel launched a very unproportionate attack, screwing over the civillians of not just Lebanon, but several other countries (but I think a lot of people can agree that Israel can rape Lebanon if they used full force if they were pushed far enough).

All I know - civilians are screwed, just like all wars



Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4111 times:

Quoting Piercey (Reply 2):
Yes, Lebanon is a young gov't that doesn't have complete control yet, and yes Hezbollah launches from houses that Israel must hit, but both countries have broken eggs.

But what real evidence is there that Hezbollah does actually use these methods other than a few IDF videos showing a building with a rocket originating from behind it? In every single attack on civilians, Israel uses the exact same excuse. So let me get this straight, up to 750 civilians have been killed because there were rockets being fired from next to them? I don't buy it.

Also, lets not forget what the Chief of Staff of the IDF instructed: for every rocket fired on Haifa, ten multi-story buildings would be hit in South Beirut:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...DF-5EE4-4733-ACB4-F2EE55F3E0BA.htm

Looks much more like tit for tat and a complete disregard for life from Israel to me.

Quoting Piercey (Reply 2):
At the same time, it's hard to pick sides. Israel has been taking this shite from Hezbullah for long enough, but at the same time Israel launched a very unproportionate attack, screwing over the civillians of not just Lebanon, but several other countries (but I think a lot of people can agree that Israel can rape Lebanon if they used full force if they were pushed far enough).

But lets not forget what was the reason Hezbollah was formed in the first place: the 1982 invasion which cost the life of 20,000 people and the USA's unconditional support despite horrific actions committed by Israel. Up until Hezbollah pushed them out in 2000, Israel held on to South Lebanon, and still holds Lebanese POWs without trial to this day, the main reason this conflict started. As for Israel being able to rape Lebanon, that is true, as we have seen in 1982, and I am willing to bet Israel could carpet bomb Beirut without the world taking any real action - the US probably wouldn't even condemn it, they didn't even condemn the attack on Qana yesterday.


User currently offlineCsavel From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1376 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4055 times:

OK It is time for the UN to take back the mandate of Palestine and decide what to do with it.

I mean if both the Israelis and the Palestinians can't agree and have been killing each other for fifty years, it is time to *take back the mandate* Then the international community will impose a settlement.

Just like parents who have children who won't share, just like parents whose children are kicking the crap out of each other, each side saying "he started it" the parents have to end it. Period.

Personally I favor the Edward Said solution of a bicultural, bilingual, binational state since I think that is the only way, but if a two state solution based on 67 is decreed, so be it. Either way, a truth and reconciliation commission will be set up. Palestinians or their descendants who decide not to go Israelistine get to have citizenship in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon or whatever Arab country they have been refugees in.

International community rebuilds Lebanon and Northern Israel, guarantees Israel's security (Oops I mean the International protectorate of Isreal/Palestine) and deals brutally with Hezbollah, but here is the point.

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, Israel is a state, as a state Israel must follow rules that terrorists don't. analogy is like if a gang of ruthless homicidal maniacs take over an apartment building in NYC, cops have a right for sharpshooters to take a shot. Cops have a right to send in tear gas, cops don't have a right to blow up the building thereby killing a shitload of civilians, *even though the homicidal maniacs would.*

I understand the anger of Israeli's who at least with Lebanon, did comply with UN resolutions, and did leave Lebanon. A military incursion into the south to get their soldiers and take out Hezbollah is justified, airstrikes *may* be justified if you are pretty sure and if civilian casualties aren't gonna happen, otherwise states have to play by rules alas.

I look forward to the day when I land at Tel-Aviv/Jaffa airport, re-named Najeeb Halaby International Airport to honor the most famous aviation person of Arab descent. Walking around Jerusalem going up to Ramallah, stopping at the Edward Said institute for some pseudo-intellectual talk, and then take the fast train to Beirut.



I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4046 times:

Quoting Csavel (Reply 4):
Just like parents who have children who won't share, just like parents whose children are kicking the crap out of each other, each side saying "he started it" the parents have to end it. Period.

Personally I favor the Edward Said solution of a bicultural, bilingual, binational state since I think that is the only way, but if a two state solution based on 67 is decreed, so be it. Either way, a truth and reconciliation commission will be set up. Palestinians or their descendants who decide not to go Israelistine get to have citizenship in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon or whatever Arab country they have been refugees in.

International community rebuilds Lebanon and Northern Israel, guarantees Israel's security (Oops I mean the International protectorate of Isreal/Palestine) and deals brutally with Hezbollah, but here is the point.

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, Israel is a state, as a state Israel must follow rules that terrorists don't. analogy is like if a gang of ruthless homicidal maniacs take over an apartment building in NYC, cops have a right for sharpshooters to take a shot. Cops have a right to send in tear gas, cops don't have a right to blow up the building thereby killing a shitload of civilians, *even though the homicidal maniacs would.*

Excellent proposal! Maybe not realistic, but still very sensible.  Smile


User currently offlineMyt332 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 9112 posts, RR: 70
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4028 times:

Quoting Moderators (Thread starter):
OR ANY OTHER THING WHICH WOULD BE IN BREACH OF THE DISCUSSION FORUM RULES.

Well with Rule 30 in place, err, isn't that anything you don't like?

Probably this post in fact.



One Life, Live it.
User currently offlineN229NW From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1972 posts, RR: 31
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4028 times:

Quoting Csavel (Reply 4):

What he said...all of it I agree with. Though sadly I do not see how this would happen. Even a two-state solution will not be enforced, not without the US stepping up to the plate. And that will happen...never I am afraid.

There are too many lies and hate on both sides. Hezbollah may have officially started in order to push out Israeli occupation, but its charter does call for Israel's destruction, and since the Iranians and Syrians have been helping them build strength they cannot be ignored. Unfortunately, they DO work from witihin densely populated areas and with support networks based in civilian targets. These are the hardest and cruelest kinds of militias to eradicate.

On the other hand, I simply don't see any moral excuse for Israel's response of killing countless civilians and destroying a fragile country that was until now the brightest new hope for positive change in the Middle East. And from a practical standpoint, Israel may show they are strong, but we all know that terrorists can hit the strongest countries and that Israel's actions will recruit new terrorists with each bomb...



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4028 times:

I'm certainly no advocate of killing innocent people - and this is a great analogy.

Quoting Csavel (Reply 4):
Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, Israel is a state, as a state Israel must follow rules that terrorists don't. analogy is like if a gang of ruthless homicidal maniacs take over an apartment building in NYC, cops have a right for sharpshooters to take a shot. Cops have a right to send in tear gas, cops don't have a right to blow up the building thereby killing a shitload of civilians, *even though the homicidal maniacs would.*

Using your analogy I pose the question:

How long do the cops wait for the homicidal maniacs as they slaughter off the occupants of the building or take pot shots at the cops killing them off one at a time before 'enough is enough' and it becomes more important to save another cop than worry about blowing up the building? One week? One month? One year? How long before the loss of the building/occupants becomes irrelevent because the homicidal maniacs therein have killed too many cops/innocents on the street? How long before that building becomes a liability?

And to add to the flavor of the analogy . . . .

If said occupants of said building had the means to secure the building and failed to do so, allowing the homicidal maniacs entry, even encouraging entry and giving quarter to them, what now becomes of the time line before the building needs to come down?


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4008 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
If said occupants of said building had the means to secure the building and failed to do so, allowing the homicidal maniacs entry, even encouraging entry and giving quarter to them, what now becomes of the time line before the building needs to come down?

The police will always attempt to get the civilians out and then to subdue the intruders.

Or are you regularly blowing up houses in your line of work? Alaska may be different, but that much different...?  mischievous 


User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4796 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3988 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 9):
The police will always attempt to get the civilians out and then to subdue the intruders.

Even the plice at some point would storm the building to take out the snipers. Any civilians hit would be collateral damage.
If the civilians in side were relatively safe, and allowing the homocidal maniacs to take pot shots from their bedrooms at the neighboring buildings, then the need to invade would far outweigh the need to do nothing.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineEurostarVA From Bahrain, joined May 2002, 1296 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3988 times:

Quoting Csavel (Reply 4):

I look forward to the day when I land at Tel-Aviv/Jaffa airport, re-named Najeeb Halaby International Airport to honor the most famous aviation person of Arab descent. Walking around Jerusalem going up to Ramallah, stopping at the Edward Said institute for some pseudo-intellectual talk, and then take the fast train to Beirut.

Fantastic vision, I really look forward to such a day. I'm a bi-national secular state supporter myself, since IMHO the viable Palestinian state option has been killed by those ever-expanding settlements in the West Bank. A confereration system resembling the Swiss model might work, or a derivative...

You mentioned the Palestine issue re-tabled at the UN. Well the UN itself has passed resolutions which call on Israel to withdraw, but to no avail...

I doubt extremists on both sides will allow this binational state to happen. The Israelis are ruled by Zionist fanatics, who will (apparently) fight to death to maintain an "exclusive" Jewish state in Palestine, even if requiring a "transfer" of Palestinians to neighboring countries. On the other hand, Hamas and Jihad are keen to announce an Islamic state in which Jews are free to live (dominated by Muslims?).

The degree to which we will have peace and relative calm will depend on the ability of an external NEUTRAL arbitrator to pressure both sides to reign in extremists and extremists ideas on both sides. America has failed to live up to exptectations and has demonstrated total and unconditional support for the Jewish state. Apparently, the Americans are yet to understand that world peace and stability is completely interwined with the picture in the Middle East. Injustice and violence breeds more terrorism, the phenomena they allegedly want to eliminate.



If there is a will, there is a way
User currently offlineEurostarVA From Bahrain, joined May 2002, 1296 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3961 times:

The first photo on this website is quite shocking but it summarizes the situation in the Palestine/Israel:

http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com/



If there is a will, there is a way
User currently offlineBotsCom From Angola, joined Jul 2006, 54 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3946 times:

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 12):

The situation in the middle east is not a apartheid. It is quite clear, the Israelis and Palestinians, look remarkably similar to each other. A outsider, would have a hard time, telling between them.

Let us get one thing very very clear, Israel is the only democracy in that region, and is facing 22 avowed enemies, who want nothing more than for you to vanish.
Facing that situation, Israel has shown remarkable restraint, time and time again.
They quite frankly, should count themselves lucky, you are not facing Russia, who's idea of suppression is wholesale destruction.



TAAG-New 777's
User currently offlineEurostarVA From Bahrain, joined May 2002, 1296 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3933 times:

Quoting BotsCom (Reply 13):
The situation in the middle east is not a apartheid. It is quite clear, the Israelis and Palestinians, look remarkably similar to each other. A outsider, would have a hard time, telling between them.

While I appreciate your input, I fail to see how someone in Luanda wants to enlighten me about what the situation in the Middle East "really is"...It's just beyond comprehension. You obviously didn't view the photo on this website:

http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com/

The Jews / Palestinians don't look alike. Such ridiculous statement is like saying "East Africans look like West Africans" (which they don't) or that "Koreans look like Phillipinos so why not live together".

Quoting BotsCom (Reply 13):
Let us get one thing very very clear, Israel is the only democracy in that region

Another stubborn myth propagated by CNN and other American networks. Israel has nothing to boast about except occupying 4 million Palestinians within its unofficial borders, denying them voting / living rights.

[Edited 2006-08-01 14:02:26]


If there is a will, there is a way
User currently offlineTheSorcerer From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 1048 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3928 times:

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 14):
You obviously didn't view the photo on this website:

http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com/

Hmm, yes this Website isn't putting a spin on things at all.  Yeah sure

Dominic



ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3921 times:

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 28):
I have a dream....i see Arab people governed by responsible, honest, transparent, and democratic governments.

The complicity of some Arab governments cannot be accepted anymore, Arabs are fed up with their greedy leaders. Arabs have the right to defend themselves just as Israelis, Arabs have the right to uphold their interests, and control their own resources.

I can only dream...But the day is coming.

Your vision is unfortunately a very futuristic and un-real thought...
Let's face it -Arab leaders are -like many leaders- mainly interested in cementing power and personal wealth.The Sheiks and Emirs in the Gulf couldn't care less about Palestinian or Lebanese misery- as long as their personal petrol fountain provides them hassle-free governance,they don't care.
Manipulation of masses has always been the master-mind of all governments-keep them stupid and busy with religion,football and soap-operas on TV.
So we can enjoy a free ride on populistic media-campaign ,glorification of the great leaders and unchallenged re-elections.
There are some exceptions to the rule but they can be counted on the fingers of one hand.. ( Jordania,Oman,Lebanon-Morocco to a certain extent..)



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineBotsCom From Angola, joined Jul 2006, 54 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3915 times:

I was replying to the poster who likened, the situation in the Middle-East to Apartheid. Let me repeat again. The situation is far from a Apartheid. Israel is a democracy, that is composed of many races, including Black Jews. You cannot dispute that. It is a fact. In fact, from what, I read and seen, Israeli Arabs have more rights to influence their affairs, than their 'brethen' in Jordan

Apartheid, was a state sanctioned racial segration, imposed by government.
I quote here from Wiki:

''In practice, this prevented non-white people — even if actually resident in white South Africa — from having a vote or influence, restricting their rights to faraway homelands which they may never have visited. Education, medical care, and other public services were sometimes claimed to be separate but equal, but those available to non-white people were in fact vastly inferior''

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 14):
Another stubborn myth propagated by CNN and other American networks. Israel has nothing to boast about except occupying 4 million Palestinians within its unofficial borders, denying them voting / living rights.

Israel holds general elections. It has a directly elected parliament. It's prime minister is accountable to it's people at the ballot box. Ask that of Intel or Microsoft who base their most important technological research centres outside of their own countries. Or the multidude of scientific output that comes out of Israel, per year.

[Edited 2006-08-01 14:24:11]


TAAG-New 777's
User currently offlineEurostarVA From Bahrain, joined May 2002, 1296 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3909 times:

Quoting BotsCom (Reply 18):
Israel holds general elections.

An election / representation system denied to the very same people it occupies.
Let's face it, Israel is a "democracy" for its Jews, on Arab land.
Dont forget that Arab village/towns in Galilee barely receive nothing in infrastructure / power/sewage/lighting/etc. If you dont believe me just r
efer to MK Azmi Bishara or Tibeh articles published on the Internet....

Israel is not a democracy, but a Jewish theocracy in Palestine or whatever you want to call it.



If there is a will, there is a way
User currently offlineBotsCom From Angola, joined Jul 2006, 54 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3900 times:

The fact that I live in Angola doesn't disqualify me from commenting on what I think. The conflict in that part of the world, has raged on for so long. That if you go about you daily life, anywhere in the world, you just won't/cannot escape from it. It's everywhere. The suspicions, certain people arose, Latins or Blacks, just because they pass for looking like a Arab in parts of Europe or North America. Try switching on your television screen, you can't escape it, or travel, getting to travel to America, getting so hard.


TAAG-New 777's
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3887 times:

Repost from locked threads for sake of discussion:

1. Hezbollah fighter keeps rifles and rockets in the bedroom closet of his family's home:
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/free...width=793,height=608,scrollbars=no

2. Foreign journalist has to "smuggle" pictures depicting unfavourable pictures of the Hezbollah out of Lebanon. Are Hezbollah PR people in firm control over western journalists in Lebanon? Is AP the new Al-Jazeera?  Wink
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3884 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
How long do the cops wait for the homicidal maniacs as they slaughter off the occupants of the building or take pot shots at the cops killing them off one at a time before 'enough is enough' and it becomes more important to save another cop than worry about blowing up the building? One week? One month? One year? How long before the loss of the building/occupants becomes irrelevent because the homicidal maniacs therein have killed too many cops/innocents on the street? How long before that building becomes a liability?

One of the toughest decisions in law enforcement.

Of course, we wouldn't blow up the building - at the point where it became obvious that the maniacs aren't going to negotiate and surrender peacefully, we send in SWAT to retake the building. Unfortunately that will result in the loss of some innocent life, but many others will be spared.

Quoting EurostarVA (Reply 11):
You mentioned the Palestine issue re-tabled at the UN. Well the UN itself has passed resolutions which call on Israel to withdraw, but to no avail...

The UN resolution commanding Hezbollah to disarm was also ignored - therein lies the problem with a UN mandated solution. Neither side believes the UN will take the necessary steps to enforce a resolution designed to end the conflict.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3871 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 22):
therein lies the problem with a UN mandated solution. Neither side believes the UN will take the necessary steps to enforce a resolution designed to end the conflict.

Therein lies proof that my continued contention that the UN is a hollowed out, obsolete, paper tiger organization is valid.

"Ohhhh, be careful, Kofi and company will pass another resolution if you don't do what they tell you".  sarcastic 


User currently offlineFrequentflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 736 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3865 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 22):
The UN resolution commanding Hezbollah to disarm was also ignored - therein lies the problem with a UN mandated solution. Neither side believes the UN will take the necessary steps to enforce a resolution designed to end the conflict.

That's right. Israel just filled in for an impotent UN, and a weak Lebanese government.

Actually I think the UN is the root cause of the situation (not historical, but in the current conflict). It cannot pacify.



Take off and live
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3865 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 23):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 22):
therein lies the problem with a UN mandated solution. Neither side believes the UN will take the necessary steps to enforce a resolution designed to end the conflict.

Therein lies proof that my continued contention that the UN is a hollowed out, obsolete, paper tiger organization is valid.

"Ohhhh, be careful, Kofi and company will pass another resolution if you don't do what they tell you".

Maybe Condi can tickle the ivories in Kuala Lumpur and save the day !


25 ANCFlyer : Therein lies another one of my discomforts - where the hell is Henry Kissinger or Colin Powell when they're really needed???
26 ME AVN FAN : Not really. If we all abstain from instults or incitements to violence against acting state leaders, there is no problem at all. NOT to be in bicultu
27 LY744 : You're right, they often wear different clothes. Other than that they're like twin brothers that were separated at birth (because they basically are)
28 Beaucaire : I could understand Colin Powell as a negotiator and/or intermediate - but Henry Kissenger ???? He would not have any credibility with the Arabs.
29 Klaus : "The UN" is a forum for the actual national governments. If "the UN" doesn't take action it means that the UN Security Council has been blocked again
30 Jaysit : Kissinger is counting his money somewhere. He's cashed in on his days of shuttle diplomacy. And Colin Powell has sadly lost all credibility post Iraq
31 ANCFlyer : Actually, it is. The IDF could have mowed through Lebanon in rather short order. I for one am glad they didn't - and believe they overstepped their i
32 Frequentflyer : We know what the basis of UN is and how it "functions", thanks. No, my criticism is aimed at the UN because it does not work whatever the origin. I k
33 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : Let's pray and hope that YOU are correct !! While Colin Powell as foreign minister lost all credibility, Jewish Henry Kissinger in fact always enjoye
34 LY744 : The fact is that UN has been present in South Lebanon since what, 1978? Despite the fact that countless peace keepers have been putting their lives o
35 Klaus : Well, when the actually executed policy is basically 1:1 identical with those "tongue in cheek" remarks, those tends to gain credibility nevertheless
36 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Laughed my ass off the other day watching Kofi on TV. . . "I am dusgusted that my warning to cease fire wasn't heeded". WTF? Who is he kidding. What'
37 Par13del : EurostarVA regarding reply 19, I have two takes on your election premise. 1. Israel annex all its captured territories, proclaims the residents Israel
38 Klaus : Abolish the UNSC veto and you'll see a massive change in what the UN can accomplish. Veto blockades are the prime cause for the UN's failures to exec
39 Dtwclipper : We do look alike, we are the same people. We all come from the same part of the world and share an ancient heritage!
40 Piercey : uh, see six day war. Israel could have completely raped Lebanon by now if they so desired.
41 JJJ : And start an open war? Israel would never be the aggressor in such a war.
42 Rammstein : There is nothing to laugh ass off: your US administration vetoes all the UN condemnations of Israeli attacks and any resolution that can somewhat har
43 KrisYYZ : I find it disgusting when I see countries like the US or Canada taking sides in this conflict. Yes Israel is a victim of terrorist, yes Lebanon is the
44 ME AVN FAN : it is obvious that mere "observers" are NOT what is required. The required thing is a seriously STRONG UN peacekeeping force. Such a force however wa
45 NAV20 : About the United Nations, it could only be set up with Stalin's agreement. His price was that the three major WW2 powers (USA, USSR, Britain) - should
46 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : Falcon84 Posted Tue Aug 1 2006 15:58:56 UTC+2 Seems there's growing pressure on the Bush Administration to get Israel to agree to an immediate cease-f
47 ME AVN FAN : but the SecurityCouncil seat for decades stayed with Taiwan, the "Republic of China" long after that change.
48 LY744 : Or even more to the point: the 1982 invasion of Lebanon. Timeline: June 3 - Assasination of Israeli ambassador to the UK (I'm not saying that's the c
49 Beaucaire : "Calls for 'a statesman' He called on Bush to name "a statesman of global stature" as his personal envoy to the region. And he urged the administratio
50 ME AVN FAN : Suppose the first thing served as a welcome pretext for the second one.
51 Post contains images ANCFlyer : SO what, what comes of it Rammstein? Not a damn thing. What does the UN do if the US votes against something? Nothing. What do they do if the UK or C
52 ME AVN FAN : Puerto Rico apparently wants to continue its "association" with the USA for a number of most understandable reasons, but quite obviously does NOT wan
53 Post contains images LY744 : Did I not say "another thread"? LY744.[Edited 2006-08-01 16:22:12]
54 DL021 : I would have to say that people must decide whether terrorism is a criminal issue or an issue of war. Israel was attacked by an extranational entity
55 ME AVN FAN : maybe, but it does NOT change the matter - Zionism as such simply is Israel nationalism and NOT a negative term by itself at all. A "pro-Zionist symp
56 Post contains links Baroque : The Sydney Morning Herald (SMH) has finally sort of broken its editorial and comment silence with this: http://www.smh.com.au/editorial/index.html?pag
57 LY744 : By your definition there essentialy are no 'pro-Zionist sympathizers' on this board though. All the more reason not to use the label, no? LY744.
58 DL021 : When its most common use is as a perjorative, please explain why it's not inflammatory to use it as a description in this case? Using your own defini
59 NAV20 : ANCFlyer, according to the leaks from Condi at the time, that deal was done on her visit to Beirut. Hand back the Shebaa Farms and put in a UN force
60 LY744 : Yet reality keeps saying otherwise. Don't tell me the Hezbollah has been preparing for war for the past 6 years over a couple hills in the middle of
61 Post contains links Baroque : Largely because the US wishes it to be so. Subject to errors and omissions I make the count as follows from 1980 to 2006 inclusive, vetoes in the Sec
62 Par13del : Negotiations and war, these are the two topic's going on. Surprized that no one has even mentioned North Korea, after all we had the UN, US, Japan, So
63 Baroque : Fascinating how some conspiracy theories are OK and some not. I suppose you have this straight from the Iranian Pres do you? For what it is worth, so
64 BotsCom : Israel in my opinion, is not going into there hard enough. Nothing less than, the total destruction, encirclement and then rout of the terrorists, wil
65 Post contains links AerospaceFan : I would like to present for discussion the comments of an official of Human Rights Watch, viz., (Excerpt) Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_ea
66 Baroque : Just as long as you realise that the interpretation of what Iran is trying to do might be wrong. Much rubbish is heaped on the Iranians for wanting t
67 Klaus : It's more a beloved lapdog that's become used to dictating the way to go and getting away with peeing on the furniture. "The UN" cannot override a UN
68 LY744 : How convenient for you. If your interpretation turns out to be wrong, none of the rest of us will be around to hear you apologize. LY744.
69 Post contains links Gilligan : You might want to talk to former Philadelphia Mayors Frank Rizzo and Willie Wilson Goode and the Philadelphia PD about that. Seem they had a little t
70 Post contains links Beaucaire : ...that is currently not easy,as it seems. The UK,Germany ( !) and the Czech Republic refuse today to sign a common paper calling for an immediate ha
71 AerospaceFan : The government of Lebanon may have been trying to do what you said, but were they successful? There is a sense in the United States that outsiders co
72 Mrocktor : The situation is beyond simple. On one side a country that protects the right to life, property and free thought, on the other a bunch of theocratic
73 Baroque : Alas, that was part of the plan. I posted on this general topic on a thread that has been locked. Lindemann was the main theoretician behind area bom
74 AerospaceFan : Your message, above, is most interesting and instructive, Baroque. It is also indicative that war is intrinsically cruel, and by its nature a very st
75 Par13del : Baroque Reply 67 "Just as long as you realise that the interpretation of what Iran is trying to do might be wrong. Much rubbish is heaped on the Irani
76 Baroque : Try UNIFET for a start.
77 AerospaceFan : There is a bit of an embellishment that I think should be taken in to account, and that is that both India and Pakistan -- the newest official nuclea
78 Baroque : Nuclear weapons and nuclear power are different. Many reactor types are not even suitable for producing the fissile material needed for nuclear weapo
79 Gilligan : That was not originally a UN force. Australian and New Zealand forces did the hard work, the UN came in after Indonesia had given up and a deal was b
80 Par13del : AerospaceFan thats the reason why I said we can only hope that cooler heads will prevail. Now if only we had all paid more attention to non-proliferat
81 Post contains links AerospaceFan : Someone named "Jonathan" patronizing the CBC Website (cbc.ca) posted the following comment^1 there: I think that this is an interesting comment, becau
82 AerospaceFan : Hope, I think, is sometimes a frail reed, indeed.
83 Par13del : Baroque reply 79 "Nuclear weapons and nuclear power are different. Many reactor types are not even suitable for producing the fissile material needed
84 AerospaceFan : Indeed, the overarching triumph represented by the UNSC resolution requiring Iran to cease its enrichment activities has been grossly underplayed. Th
85 Mrocktor : And you don't gamble your survival on the hope a maniac will turn out to be reasonable once he gains the means to world scale destruction. mrocktor
86 Post contains links Baroque : Sorry try again please. There is NO WAY Indonesia would have let either Australia or NZ in if they were not part of UN. That is just common knowledge
87 DL021 : No, merely extrapolating means, motivations, events and results. You can prove it was not so? Which is more likely? I did make it clear I was opining
88 DL021 : I think this may have been glanced over so I'm going to repeat myself. There are those that feel that the US is blocking a ceasefire or peacemaking. T
89 Baroque : I am not sure if we are agreeing or disagreeing here. Iran seems to want to use reactors that require uranium enriched in U235. There are reactors th
90 AerospaceFan : In a sense, the United States has never been more powerful. Why, you may ask? Answer: During the Vietnam War, hundreds of thousands of American citiz
91 Baroque : You stated HAMAS were taking orders from Iran and that is as close as you can get to certainty to be FLAT WRONG. So logic. You are correct, it is nea
92 DL021 : The Marines who secured their operations at the airport, the Naval and Marine crews who carried Diggers from place to place. The Naval forces that pa
93 Post contains links Gilligan : From you're own link: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/easttimor1.html The UN force was led by Australia and consists of troops from Australia, Britain
94 Par13del : Dl021 Reply 89 "Hizballah is disarmed and their leaders either imprisoned or exiled to Iran/Syria or wherever they can be sent to live out their lives
95 AerospaceFan : It's a fine thing, this call for respecting the democratic wishes of various people. I only wish the EU were consistent in bringing forth a moral fram
96 EurostarVA : I heard about cases of Ethiopian Jews donating blood at hospitals, only for hospital officials trashing it later... Last time I checked, Palestinians
97 DL021 : We respect the elections in Palestine. The Palestineans are now faced with the prospect of dealing with the fruits of their own elections. The govern
98 LY744 : You simply MUST elaborate on this. I want to know everything, where this supposedely took place, where you heard about this, but most of all I'd like
99 EurostarVA : 40 years of occupation and Israel intends to implement neither. Your guess is as good as mine as to what the real intentions of Israeli governments a
100 LY744 : Source. Let me play the devil's advocate (i.e. in no way am I actually agreeing with any part of what you said): making life a living hell is not gen
101 AerospaceFan : If this is true, why don't the Arabs in the Knesset bring this to the attention of the world? I find that Israel, a country that has significant numb
102 JoeCattoli : Good post Csavel, unfortulately humans aren't yet that evolved to allow such different people have a unique State.. Imagine Israelis with a Palestini
103 AerospaceFan : I think we all hope for peace, even as we are faced with its impossibility on Earth today.
104 EurostarVA : Oh right, the native "terrorists" are a threat for harassing the Jews from Brooklyn who moved to Ariel last year. Get real my God. Get real, it's THE
105 Scintx : I agree with this statement. It does not seem to appear what administration is in office.
106 Klaus : Unfortunately, those actually fighting for Hezbollah don't have "terrorist" tattoed onto their foreheads. This may feel like a great idea, but pretty
107 JoeCattoli : There is a lot of people that doesn't, and you fight this behaviour with education. I'll never be convinced of the inevitability of war, if people li
108 Post contains links EurostarVA : http://home.mindspring.com/~fontenelles/youmans/youmans1.htm Ahhhh Benjamin Netanyahu, always capitalizing on hatred.
109 EurostarVA : I do think that Jews of Middle Eastern roots look like Palestinians, but the Europeans + Ethiopian ones do not. I am simply talking about physical fe
110 AerospaceFan : I think that that's speculative. But let's assume, here, that it's not. Are you saying that Israel should have continued to accept these attacks as t
111 LY744 : So Klaus, tell me, if the Israeli security zone in South Lebanon still existed as of 3 weeks ago, would all this fighting be taking place right now?
112 Rammstein : Well, actually EU pledged already a lot of money for the reconstruction of Palestinian infrastructures. The problem is that, after a while, the infra
113 EurostarVA : The Absentee Property Law of 1950 stipulates, among other things, that an absentee is someone who at the time of the War of Independence, "was in any
114 AerospaceFan : Then the EU should reconstruct them. The EU is rich enough now to make pronouncements of foreign policy even though they may be contrary to the wishe
115 DL021 : They left hoping that the Arab armies were going to destroy the Israelis. They had the opportunity to return and live peacefully, but held out for th
116 Mrocktor : And those who claim to defend the interests of the palestinians attack, from these territories, when Israel gave them back. Considering that Israel's
117 JoeCattoli : They should stop protecting Israel and treat Israel like a normal Nation. I don't wanna be flamed but I remember US government has often helped dicta
118 Klaus : Only very slightly so. The regular round-table talks between the main lebanese groups last week were scheduled to deal with the disarmament of Hezbol
119 DL021 : OK, Joe....so tell me...if the US stops defending Israel, who will help them protect themselves from their enemies? You have to admit they have had th
120 Klaus : I've repeatedly done that already.
121 Post contains links Dougloid : On the subject of being duped by the media, I ran across a very interesting blog that comes complete with photo documentation about Hezbollah's shamel
122 DL021 : Other than suggesting mediation I've yet to read what precise things should be done, or given up by either side. What precisely should the Europeans
123 JoeCattoli : Unfortunately I don't have all the answers for everything but in my opinion everything has been plain wrong since the creation of Israel. I mean, OK
124 EurostarVA : They are settlers, not immigrants. The incorrect term "immigrant" legitimizes their status in the West Bank as being under Israel jursidiction, which
125 Joni : How is the Israeli situation different from apartheid? They're even founding the "Bantustans" for the Palestinians in the form of non-viable and marg
126 Par13del : Klaus reply 118 "Hezbollah would rather likely have double the manpower by now if Israel was still there, and they'd just use a larger proportion of l
127 AerospaceFan : So I take it that discussions hadn't even begun? That seems rather unpromising. The Israelis and the United States have not "exclusively responded mi
128 DL021 : Are you certain that the Israelis did not merely occupy homes abandoned by Palestineans who deserted in the face of oncoming Arab armies...assuming t
129 L410Turbolet : Ever heard of this thing called the LEBANESE ARMY? You know, regular armies are usually the ones who take care of protection of country's borders, so
130 Halls120 : Actually, the UN responsibility goes back a lot further. They've been AWOL ever since the partition in 1948. The UNSC veto will never be abolished. N
131 Dougloid : Have you ever donated blood? Here in the US they ask you whether you've been in an African country since 1977, and if you have, you're probably ineli
132 Jaysit : Incidentally, did anyone see Condi on the McNeill-Lehrer News Hour this week? Say whatever you want about her abilities, but she is very articulate an
133 AndesSMF : The border wall between Egypt and the Gaza Strip.
134 Dougloid : Better that than the ethnic cleansing race war that the puppetmasters in Teheran and their lackeys and stooges in Damascus are promoting against ever
135 Post contains images Klaus : Yeah. Tell that to some of our resident chickenhawks around here, while you're at it!
136 Pulkovokiwi : Yes she is articulate and well spoken and achieves absolutely nothing. She must have a real sense of achievement at the end of the day-not!
137 BotsCom : You and I quite know, you are making a disingenious comment. In fact, this is has been order for you for quite sometime. Using any tool, to hit Israe
138 ME AVN FAN : but in the world, even if not necessarily so many on this board no, it is NOT inflammatory at all Cyprus
139 Baroque : Comms and logistics - exactly!
140 Baroque : Well you might think that but you if so you were not paying attention. They thought that the vote would be in their favour. When it was not they dest
141 Joni : No, they're not. If they were, they'd work toward establishing such a state and not sabotage progress toward it in every turn. Take the present situa
142 Post contains images Baroque : We may think this Klaus but I think we are And which country leads the veto stakes by a country mile? Over 7 to 1 for the last 27 years, and even the
143 Post contains links Raffik : The same cannot be said about Israeli leaders of the Arabs over the years. What is happening in the Middle East is nothing short of ethnic cleansing.
144 L410Turbolet : It is "war crime" only in the vocabulary of naive peace activists like you. And? What's wrong with that? Choosing 100,000 "mine" or 100,000 "them"? H
145 Frequentflyer : Yeah, by historical I meant sociological/religious/etc.. I agree with you. Once more, the UN process is flawed. That includes the veto. UN II is badl
146 ME AVN FAN : A "friend" ? Who not even allowed direct flights between Lebanon and the USA ? what does a country need enemies for with such a "friend" ? in short,
147 Dougloid : Observations from my spouse on hearing that Hezbollah launched 100 or so rockets yesterday and managed to kill one guy on a bicycle: Well, if that's t
148 Post contains images Jaysit : LOL. Well, that's true too. I didn't say she achieved much. Just that she shows amazing polish. She plays a mean Chopin too. Maybe she can play a noc
149 Post contains links NAV20 : It's actually in accordance with the best military traditions - 'achieve the necessary moral and strategic effect without needless loss of life' - I'
150 Post contains links Gilligan : Peace in our time right? Again, a civil war, not a war between two nations or between a nation state and a terrorist organisation. This best describe
151 Post contains links Dougloid : Interesting discussion. To anyone in Lebanon who was surprised by what is happening there. I found a very interesting article while researching Hezbol
152 ME AVN FAN : No. The Turks intervened when the Military Junta which toppled Makarios III in 1974, in close conjunction with those generals in the Greek military j
153 Post contains images LY744 : Oh wow. What about Arab leaders?! And what about a certain non-Arab country that is currently trying to acquire nuclear energy capabilities (as one "
154 Gilligan : As long as you don't buy armor from them, it's junk. Read that line and tell me what it tells you.
155 Joni : Um, well, like I mentioned previously, purposefully targeting civilians constitutes a war crime. Dropping a WMD in the center of a city is about as o
156 Post contains links Baroque : If a sample of two is valid, you are 100% on there Nav! I don't think any country is going to be too enthusiastic after hearing about the demolition
157 ME AVN FAN : You are full of prejudice ! They may get MIG-29/MIG-31/SukhoiSu-27 or Eurofighters and/or Dassault Rafale and/or Mirage-2000, plus some new submarine
158 DL021 : Yes it is, especially as the word has dual connotations, one being rather inflammatory. You accuse the Israelis with this word, the same as those who
159 JJJ : Countries with a far greater military budget have discarded Rafale and Eurofighter as 'expensive'. If Lebanon is to build an Air Force (unlikely, gro
160 4xRuv : That's like saying, what evidence are there for the Qana incident other than some video showing 3 or 4 dead children.
161 Gilligan : A R M O R....4 : armored forces and vehicles (as tanks) So that means that the Greek Cypriots wanted to join Greece while the Turkish Cypriots did no
162 ME AVN FAN : the "relationship" with Jordan also is a full and real PEACE TREATY ! - - while you emphasize a minor point you like and kindly DISregard the severe
163 Dougloid : I guess you're interested in rewriting history. What went down on Hitler's watch was because he wanted it that way. What kind of fucking dunces do yo
164 Frequentflyer : Am afraid I fail to see your point there They also get military supplies from the US... current military superiority is due to that and IDF budgets,
165 AndesSMF : A little explanation of Hitler's 'Mein Kampf': "Mein Kampf makes clear Hitler's racist worldview, dividing up humans based on ancestry. Hitler stated
166 Post contains images LY744 : Really now? Israel has completely kept out of Lebanon until provoked by Hezbollah. They have a grand total of 3 Lebanese prisoners AFAIK, one of whic
167 ME AVN FAN : - Neither Saudi Arabia nor Egypt did cause the holocaust !
168 DL021 : THanks for clarifying that for everyone. It actually helps my point to show that Israel doesn't attack those who don't attack them. Jordan and Egypt
169 Halls120 : I agree that the UN is badly flawed. I'm just not sure a UN II would be any better. The flaws in the current organization stem from the fact that the
170 Frequentflyer : Chill Dude, there was no scream there, just a comment. I think, if I recollect what I've witnessed at CDG, that it relates more to border control/Pol
171 LY744 : Obviously, what does that have to do with my analogy? LY744.
172 DL021 : I could have used a different analogy, but I do think the point is accurate. The border control, PN are the airport security.
173 EurostarVA : "Israel" has already used them in Lebanon last week. The sulphur bombs, which are banned internationally, were unleashed on a civilian group includin
174 Dtwclipper : Really, they showed footage....how about a real source that you can link us to. What your implying is akin to saying Fox News is Fair and Balanced!
175 DL021 : Sulphur bombs? Seriously.....perhaps you meant phosphorus? As in white phosphorus? Used for smoke and illumination rounds? As well as thermal grenade
176 AerospaceFan : But Israel in fact has negotiated in good faith toward a treaty that would have given the Palestinians almost all that they wanted, including a separ
177 Post contains links KSYR : Seems like Hizballah has been using Hospitals to store weapons and as HQs. CNN has video to prove it. JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israel's military on Wednesda
178 LY744 : A sulphur bomb is what happens when you eat too many baked beans. White phosphorus is what armies around the world use to produce smoke. To add to wh
179 Post contains links Dougloid : That's an unconfirmed report from the usual "sources" who are "investigating" whether white phosphorus rounds are being used for 'off label' uses. Hu
180 Post contains links AndesSMF : Here is a translation of a letter from a Lebanese Shia explaining Hezbollah's charity work: "I lived until 2002 in a small southern village near Mards
181 AGM100 : It seems to me that the ground offensive is turning the initiative back to the Israelis. It was know accident that Iranian / French diplomats showed u
182 Gilligan : Will it make any difference? Name a single Arab air force that has ever had any success against the Israeli AF. Russian tanks are good for one thing,
183 Raffik : Well done Israel! 828 down- 3.5million to go! If it wasn't yet another family killed, or ambulances or the UN, or maybe a few kids, I wouldn't actual
184 11Bravo : ..., and I would add are NOT considered chemical weapons, nor are they "banned internationally". You are just making stuff up here Eurostar. Consider
185 Post contains links NAV20 : Personally I find the recent quotes from Olmert very revealing. IMO they indicate that Israel is following a completely misguided strategy in the Midd
186 Post contains links Dougloid : Steady on, Raffik. Hezbollah is as deadly to your people as cancer. If you need the answer to why the Israelis are running around making a mess of Le
187 Post contains links NAV20 : Hitler asked the British the same question in 1940, Dougloid. This is the answer he got:- "I say to the House as I said to ministers who have joined
188 Dougloid : You misunderstand me. I was not asking Raffik "What are you going to do about it?" in a challenging or offensive way. What I was asking him was what
189 QR332 : And you forgot one of the main examples, which Israel has a huge amount of experience with - the Palestinians. 58 years on, they are still fighting a
190 Damirc : Food for thought ... "Terrorism is the war of the poor, and war is the terrorism of the rich." (Sir Peter Ustinov) D.
191 Semsem : Piercey Israel has killed less civilians than NATO or the USA did in Serbia and Afghanistan. It's only when Israel defends itself that the world screa
192 CasInterest : Well, So far hundreds of civilian deaths have not turned up 2 soldiers or stopped Hezbollah from tossing rockets. Pretty simple to see how much hezbo
193 Semsem : Eurostar Israel is a democracy for Arabs too who may own property and are free to worship, vote and some even make treacherous comments against Israel
194 Semsem : Rammstein and JoeCatoli more antisemitism in Italy today. 20 Jewish stores in the Rome Jewish quarter attacked. Not surprising with the rising antisem
195 NAV20 : Semsem, recognition of the State of Israel has been available to the Israelis ever since 1967, as set down in UN Resolution 242. All Isreel has to do
196 Jafa39 : I am 45 yrs old, all my life I have been hearing on the news about "Middle East Conflict" if you read the old Testament you will also do a lot of rea
197 Gilligan : They had their freedom in hand back in 1947. Unfortunately they were unwilling to share or comprimise and as a result, live without a country to call
198 Gunsontheroof : Unfortunately, it seems that they're much more interested in displacing Palestinians by encircling West Jerusalem with Jewish-only settlements in the
199 Semsem : NAV 20 we offered the Palestinians a State in 1948 and they refused. Instead they attacked. We offered them a State again a few years ago (ask Clinton
200 Semsem : Gunsonteroff you say Israel wants the Palestinians out? Are they out? Nobody chased them out. They are still here. On the other hand Lebanon and all t
201 Post contains links Moderators : Due to the length of this thread, we have now started a part 2, which can be found here: Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread 2 (by Moderat
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