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A Thread In Praise Of Tolerance And Respect  
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2408 times:

I feel sick.

I've felt ill since the beginning of the recent hostilities between Israel and Lebanon, and I continue to feel that way -- not physically, but emotionally, mentally, psychologically.

When I started my thread about God, I did it because, for the umpteenth time, I felt that God had failed us, that the peoples of Earth decided to pummel each other into submission for grievances ancient and insurmountable. Although I still consider myself a Christian, each war that I witness, if only through the looking glass, reduces my ability to accept what I was taught.

But I think that we put too much on the shoulders of God. We make our fates here what they are, and we enjoy or suffer the consequences as our efforts may yield.

We should count ourselves lucky, most of us, to live in a land where vendettas are forgotten, where Arab and Jew can live side by side, and let live. Mutual respect for one another still exists at least here, so much so that this very message seems hackneyed, and blessedly so.

We sometimes forget how fortunate we are to enjoy the company of people who, despite mutual differences, can set them aside and live in relative peace, and relative harmony.

So, I raise a glass to the values of tolerance and respect for all our differences, and for the love of humanity that animates those values. In a world that cries out for calm, we still have a bit of it, over here, in our little corner of the world. Long may this be.

The alternative is too sad to contemplate.

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2395 times:

If there was a god who was both all-powerful and benevolent, he'd have had plenty of opportunity to show up and set things right.

But as it turns out, it's indeed up to us to not screw up as badly as others have before us and are still doing around us... There's still a lot of chaos, but we have indeed come a long way already...!

[Edited 2006-08-07 07:35:44]

User currently offlinePulkovokiwi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2393 times:

And it pays to remember that 60 years ago something dreadful happened in Hiroshima. I we going to let Jerusalem/Washington let it happen again?

User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2386 times:

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 2):
I we going to let Jerusalem/Washington let it happen again?

Because we all know that they're just itching to drop the one's they've had for what, sixty years? And peacfull old Hezbollah would be the model of restraint if they could just get their hands on one.  sarcastic 

There are plenty of threads going to bash the US/Israel/Lebanon/Hezbollah, etc., can we confine please it to those?



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2367 times:

I think that if God exists -- and, as I say, I believe that He does, but really, it's up to each of us to believe or not -- then He might want each of us to do the right thing without regard to whether He does.

Thus, at the end, God might ask each of us this: "Remember when you were around, down on Earth, and you didn't know that I was there? Remember how you treated one another? Remember? Well... even if you don't remember... I do."

We must treat one another with tolerance and respect, not only because God tells us to, but because it's the only way to behave in the world in which we exist.

What is the alternative? Answer: Turn on the news.

Never has it been more clear that fanaticism only leads to hatred, and hatred only leads to war, and war leads, for the most part, to injustice and, most importantly, futility.

Futility -- the lack of hope -- is the essence of negativism. What was it, after all, that Dante Alighieri said was written on the portal to the netherworld?


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2320 times:

Further ruminations:

I am sometimes appalled by the commentary that one can see on the Web these days -- not only on extreme blogs, but also as responses or even original articles posted on mainstream sites.

In America, people of every background have succeeded by maintaining an interest in the balance between individual and societal interests. There is an informal social contract by which citizens of all kinds can contribute and prosper in this country, and by the same token, their countrymen will protect them without fail, regardless of any individual or small-group differences that might exist.

I think that the rest of the world could certainly learn from the experience of the United States in handling religious, political, and other differences. We may not be perfect, but we do a good job of keeping things manageable.

[Edited 2006-08-11 22:02:25]

User currently offlineBobster2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2297 times:

A rumination from Steven Weinberg:
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.''


User currently offlineHalcyon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2286 times:

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 6):
A rumination from Steven Weinberg:
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.''

Oh my heavens Bob, can we NOT drag this into a "religion is always going to screw things up" thread? ANd it does not take religion, if you thought about it instead of simply championing a "witty" remark that furthers your belief-it indeed simply takes any strong viewpoint. What a worthless quote on this thread. It's so asinine as to be laughable. Ick. I'm sick of crap like that.

Respect is a great thing, and so is tolerance up to a point. There are some things, of course, that must not be tolerated.


User currently offlineBezoar From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 807 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2281 times:

A fine thread. Thank you, AerospaceFan.

I tried to write my response, and it started running way too long. I finally realized that my words would not mean much, so I share words from another:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."

Matthew 5:38-45

I think these instructions run counter to human nature, at least the human nature I know.



"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
User currently offlineBobster2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2281 times:

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 7):
a "witty" remark

It's not a witty remark. Steven Weinberg is not a comedian. It was spoken with the utmost sincerity and belief in its truth.


User currently offlineHalcyon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2275 times:

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 9):
It's not a witty remark. Steven Weinberg is not a comedian. It was spoken with the utmost sincerity and belief in its truth.

You're right about it being not witty, lol, but it's also not incredibly perfect for this thread. Sorry I blew up.  Sad It's way too generalized to be any good, and, in its generalization, it does not itself show tolerance or respect. Happy day to you, for I am off to work now.

Lucas  Smile


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2271 times:

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 8):
A fine thread. Thank you, AerospaceFan.

You're welcome, as always, Bezoar.

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 8):
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."

Matthew 5:38-45

I think these instructions run counter to human nature, at least the human nature I know.

I agree. The Bible teaches us things that are sometimes impossible for mortal, fallible beings to fulfill.

Still, if we aim for what the Bible teaches, the chances that we will succeed in doing what is right may be better than if we ignore it altogether.

Regardless of what the Bible teaches, I think that decency teaches that we should treat one another with no less than a basic level of respect and tolerance, and perhaps this is the least that humankind could do.

[Edited 2006-08-12 01:32:08]

User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24925 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2270 times:

There is no gods...
Muslims, there is no Allah
Buddists, there is ni Buddah
Jews, there is no (err..sorry, dunno)
Sikhs, there is no (as above)

Religion is the true creator of violence in the modern world.



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2270 times:

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 12):
Religion is the true creator of violence in the modern world.

Yes, Osama Bin Laden has alot to answer for  Angry



Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24925 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2265 times:

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 13):
Yes, Osama Bin Laden has alot to answer for Angry

Not just him, but the frigging Christian leaders, Jewish Leaders, Budhist Leaders, Muslim Leaders...
They're all to blame



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2265 times:

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 14):
Not just him, but the frigging Christian leaders, Jewish Leaders, Budhist Leaders, Muslim Leaders...
They're all to blame

Well, yeah, you do have a point  Wink



Lee



Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlineBezoar From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 807 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2255 times:

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 14):
They're all to blame

I guess we agree that one shouldn't blame God, though for different reasons.  Smile



"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2252 times:

I think that when I wrote the following, I had in mind exactly what Bezoar has said so well just now: One really has no need to place blame on God -- besides which doing so may be quite futile.

As Shakespeare said through one of his characters: The fault is not in the stars, but in ourselves.

And the corollary is that what benefits mankind can also come from mankind, if only we desire to achieve it.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
When I started my thread about God, I did it because, for the umpteenth time, I felt that God had failed us, that the peoples of Earth decided to pummel each other into submission for grievances ancient and insurmountable. Although I still consider myself a Christian, each war that I witness, if only through the looking glass, reduces my ability to accept what I was taught.

But I think that we put too much on the shoulders of God. We make our fates here what they are, and we enjoy or suffer the consequences as our efforts may yield.


User currently offlineHalcyon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2248 times:

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 12):
Religion is the true creator of violence in the modern world.

Yes. We all know that people who have no religion can do no evil without the influence of religion. What a dumb, dumb thing to say. It cannot be proved at all, and is very similar to a child saying that everything wrong is the fault of who he's upset with. What a pointless waste of bandwidth.

I'm in a bad mood today.

Cheers,
Lucas


User currently offlineBobster2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2239 times:

If you want a witty remark, here's how Jon Stewart said it:

"Religion: Giving people hope in a world torn apart by religion"


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21556 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2239 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 11):
The Bible teaches us things that are sometimes impossible for mortal, fallible beings to fulfill.

Not impossible. Just difficult. Seems that most people are interested in the easy way out, which is rarely the best way out.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2226 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
, I felt that God had failed us

Wrong. It is we that have failed Him.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
If there was a god who was both all-powerful and benevolent, he'd have had plenty of opportunity to show up and set things

That's just a cop-out, Klaus. By blaming God, and not our own actions, it kind of lets us off the hook.

There is a God, and He gives us the freedom to make choices in our lives, for good or evil, that will either lead us to Paradise, or to Damnation.

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 12):
There is no gods...
Muslims, there is no Allah
Buddists, there is ni Buddah
Jews, there is no (err..sorry, dunno)
Sikhs, there is no (as above)

Religion is the true creator of violence in the modern world.

So sure of yourself Kirkie? After all, you worship sheep, so everyone has to believe in something, I guess.

I think you're dead wrong, but I won't argue with you, or anyone else here on this forum. One of the amazing things I see on this board, is that there are so many who deny His existence. Fortunately, such people in the world are a minority.

God, or personal faith, is not the cause of violence in the world. Religion isn't even the cause. It's when religion is perverted and twisted-as the Nazi's did; as the Christians did during The Crusades; as many in the Muslim world do now-is when you have the problem.

Religion and faith in and of itself isn't the cause.


User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24925 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2221 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):

Only thing I worship is Glasgow Rangers FC  Wink
Fair enough, you can be religious, and that' up to you, I have nothing wrong with your personal beliefs, but it is of my opinion that religion is the main factor of violence in todays world.



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2210 times:

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 22):
Fair enough, you can be religious, and that' up to you, I have nothing wrong with your personal beliefs, but it is of my opinion that religion is the main factor of violence in todays world.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. It is the perversion; the twisting, the misuse of faith in God, to gain worldy power, wealth and possession that is the main factor. Gaining power, wealth and possession, be they someone else's land, or someone else's personal possession, is the reason for all conflicts. But when one twists and perverts a faith, it becomes more brutal, I'll grant you that. So many crimes have been done, wrongly, in "The Name Of God".

Again, it isn't the faith itself; it's those who misuse and blaspheme it.


User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24925 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2206 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 23):
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. It is the perversion; the twisting, the misuse of faith in God, to gain worldy power, wealth and possession that is the main factor. Gaining power, wealth and possession, be they someone else's land, or someone else's personal possession, is the reason for all conflicts. But when one twists and perverts a faith, it becomes more brutal, I'll grant you that. So many crimes have been done, wrongly, in "The Name Of God".

Again, it isn't the faith itself; it's those who misuse and blaspheme it.

Problem is, there is no God. Otherwise, why would he be allowing the current crap to be going on?



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
25 Post contains images Falcon84 : Because God does not control our fates; he lets us make our own choice, and to live with the consequences. That answer, that you gave, is so over-sim
26 Jamesbuk : So whats the point in him? he sits there doing nothing all day? Rgds --James--
27 Post contains images AirCop : As history as shown this is a repeating cycle. Christians and Muslims have been at war a number of times since the 1 A.D. why will it change now?
28 Falcon84 : The point of Him is us; our existence, the existence of this world, of this universe. He created this whole thing in 6 days. That's pretty good work.
29 MD80fanatic : Does your father step in to make certain that Gkirk does not go astray? Why would he? He love's you. It's your life....you will learn from your mista
30 Post contains links Klaus : That is not quite correct - Buddha was a historical person. Buddhism is not actually a religion the way christianity is, it is a philosophy (which, h
31 Bezoar : Precisely. As parents we don't want our children to get hurt. We do step in at times, but we can protect them at every moment. But we also love them
32 Post contains images Bobster2 : Wait a minute! You're not blaming Nazism on the atheists? That kills my whole theory about atheists being nice people. My quick check of Wikipedia in
33 Post contains images Klaus : Well, it's not that simple. The nazi ideology managed to be extremist and aggressive all without postulating a god; Atheism isn't any more a guarante
34 Bezoar : Yes, Muhammad didn't come around until later, but the seeds were planted well before, if you trust the source. In Genesis the story is told of Abraha
35 Post contains images Bobster2 : Hard to say, really. Atheists are now and always have been a tiny fragment of the human population. As far as we know, all human societies have been
36 Bezoar : Some quotes from Adolph Hitler's diaries and transcripts: "Christianity is an invention of sick brains." "So it's not opportune to hurl ourselves now
37 Boeing744 : Hitler was an atheist. Interestingly, his mother (or grandmother, can't remember) was Jewish, which would in turn make him Jewish technically. I am a
38 EWRCabincrew : Got to agree with you there. This is a good thread. Glad someone brought it up. Thanks AerospaceFan. Religious or not, we should all be tolerant of e
39 AirCop : My mistake, should have typed 1000 A.D.
40 Pulkovokiwi : You are correct and he was very careful to keep this concealed from his cronies. He did not believe in God he thought he was God.
41 MD80fanatic : From what I have read, Hitler was not only catholic.....but he deeply wanted to become a priest. His mother described how he (as a child) would set up
42 Post contains images Gkirk : Ah well, learn something new everyday
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