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Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread 4  
User currently offlineModerators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 511 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5663 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Due to the number and length of posts in the Official Middle East Conflict Discussion Thread 3 (by Moderators Aug 5 2006 in Non Aviation), here is part 4. Thank you very much to the posters in that thread for keeping the discussion civil. The same guidelines will be applied to this thread as to the previous one:

Quote:
This thread is for discussion and debate of the political issues revolving around the current Middle East conflict.

YOU ARE NOT TO POST INSULTS, ABUSE, INSINUATIONS ABOUT USERS, FLAMEBAIT, RACISM, INCITEMENTS TO VIOLENCE OR ANY OTHER THING WHICH WOULD BE IN BREACH OF THE DISCUSSION FORUM RULES.

Any posts which are removed from this thread for breaching the above condition will result in an AUTOMATIC 2 WEEK BAN, with the possibility of the ban being extended where the moderators feel the breach warrants it. You have been warned.

Please also see these other threads:
Official Middle East Situation Report Thread (by Moderators Aug 1 2006 in Non Aviation)
Official Sympathy For Israel Thread (by Moderators Aug 1 2006 in Non Aviation)
Official Sympathy For Lebanon Thread (by Moderators Aug 1 2006 in Non Aviation)



Please use moderators@airliners.net to contact us.
239 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5684 posts, RR: 32
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5639 times:

Five years into the "War on Terror" Israel are killing Lebanese civilians in their hundreds; Hizbollah are stronger than ever in Lebanon and are lauching missiles at Israel at a rate they can only have dreamt of; Iraq is ungovernable and there is a de facto civil war in place; the Taliban are resurgent in Afghanistan as the war there is about to enter its sixth year; Iran's president calls for Israel to be "wiped off the map" and is on the brink of acquiring nuclear weapons. There have been a couple of hundred people murdered in Madrid, London and Turkey; and today there was a very real risk of airliners being blown-up over the Atlantic.

I thought the whole idea behind this war was to make the world a safer place?

[Edited 2006-08-10 11:52:13]

User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5626 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 1):

I think the problem in this "war" is that it creates more and more enemies. For example in Lebanon, all this news and pictures of killed and wounded civilians, children etc. will only stir up hatred towards Israel and the West among Muslims. And of course I ask myself, is the abduction of two soldiers proportionate to the killing of hundreds of civilians?

In Iraq it is the same. All the killings and torture by the "liberators" has been so counter-productive. It brings more and more recruits to the insurgents. In the long run the foreign troops will be bombed out, because support at home for their mission will not be big enough. Then Iraq will be no better off than under Saddam and be a real threat to the world.

Afghanistan seems pretty lost as well. There is no political solution for it. The Taleban seem to have many human reserves and there are not enough Western troops there to stabilize the country.

Sorry for the pessimistic outlook, but that's the way I see it. I think the real answer to terrorism is not in bombs and bullets but rather in political fairness. Few people turn into terrorists as long as they have a fair political participation.


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8705 posts, RR: 43
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5612 times:

I just noticed this magazine cover, pissed me off:



the pictures: an orthodox Jew praying, a tank firing, young female Israeli soldiers in uniforms (1960s maybe), the wall between Israel and the Westbank, the Dome of the Rock and the Israeli flag
The subtitles are "What makes the country this aggressive" and "The history of the State of the Jews".

As for the first one, "aggressive"? The entire country? If they hadn't been attacked time and again by their lovely neighbours, some of which (such as Egypt & Jordan) have now officially come to terms with Israel's very existance, there'd be no need for any "aggression" at all.
Second: It probably sounds alright in English, but in my book "Judenstaat" ("Jewish State") in German sounds highly derogatory... I've long held "Stern" magazine in low regard, but this pretty much settles it - borderline anti-semitism at the very least.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7146 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5612 times:

My view is that war is big business. Big for those who sell the weapons, big business for those who get contracts to monitor the peace, big business for those who get contracts to rebuild, big for everything / one involved in war.

In this conflict, lets debate the reason why the Lebanese, Hezbollah, Arab League and the French would support a plan to put 15,000 Lebanese soldiers on the southern border with the existing UNIFIL force?

Every supporter of Lebanon, every neutral observer, every expert I have seen on BBC, every reporter, every Lebanese Govt. official, every Israeli supporter, every Israeli Govt. official, French Govt., US, UN all of them have been universal on the following two points:

1. The Lebanese Army does not have the military power to disarm Hezbollah
2. The Lebanese do not want a civil war by attempting to disarm Hezbollah.

Is the giving of the Sheba Farms to Lebanon the magic pill that will suddenly transform Hezbollah into a group that will accept a Jewish State on its border? The number of prisoners Lebanon and Israel claim are in Israeli jails are not high, at least not Lebanese prisoners, so that can't be it either. What exactly is Lebanon attempting to do, certainely, they have convinced the Arab League and the French of the viability of their plan, I would be interested in knowing what it is.

Based on what has taken place so far, when Hezbollah launches a resistance attack in support of its Palestinian brothers, do they believe that Israel will not respond because the Lebanese Army and UNIFIL are on the border? UNIFIL already had Hezbollah fighters in close proximity to its post and they were bombed, ditto the Lebanese Army, they have been hit as well.

To my knowledge, the US has not supported placing US troops in the proposed international force, so do the Lebanese Govt. fear foreign peace keepers on their soil more than a potential civil war? That seems like a stretch, so the end result will probably be that instead of just Israeli and Hezbollah fighters being killed, the Lebanese Army will join them?

This first amendment to the initial draft has me totally confused, as well as the French acceptance of the initial draft which they knew had no hope of being accepted. I cannot say what would have happened, but if a more reasonable initial draft had been proposed, a ceasefire might be closer now rather than further away. As to a post in the last thread where the issue was raised about the suffering taking place, now we need to include the French, US and UN negotiators, as their bone-head initial draft has resulted in another couple weeks of fighting. War is big business, is this what they all wanted?


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5596 times:

Quoting Par13del (Reply 4):
now we need to include the French, US and UN negotiators, as their bone-head initial draft has resulted in another couple weeks of fighting.

I suspect that the first draft was agreed with the Israelis only, Par13del, and then presented to the Lebanese as a sort of fait accompli. Full marks to the Lebanese for insisting on changes; can't have been an easy thing to do, to delay things when your country is being ground to powder around you, day by day.

Oddly enough, I think the pressure is on the Israelis now. They either agree to reasonable terms (especially a timetable for their own withdrawal) or they have to stay in Lebanon themselves, for months or even years, losing military people every day and with rockets still coming over.

The French are in a very strong position, because they are the only 'politically-correct' people around with a big un-committed conscript army on tap. The United States, Britain, and Commonwealth countries like Australia and Canada only have small peacetime armies, and those are already fully-committed in other places, particularly Afghanistan and Iraq.

So the choice for Israel looks like being either to accept a largely-French UN Force on French terms which give the Lebanese a fair shake, or face a situation where 'there ain't gonna be no UN Force', and the Israeli Army has to stay in Lebanon longterm. Getting shot at 24 hours a day.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineFrequentflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 736 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5587 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
So the choice for Israel looks like being either to accept a largely-French UN Force on French terms which give the Lebanese a fair shake, or face a situation where 'there ain't gonna be no UN Force', and the Israeli Army has to stay in Lebanon longterm. Getting shot at 24 hours a day.

Well a largely-French contingent on French terms would also give Israel a fair shake I think. There is opportunity to be seen as a regional pacifier, something the French are never allergic to.

But if the whole thing is skewed towards benefitting more one side or the other, it will be, one more time a failure.

The need is pacification, removing the terrorist threat, arming and organizing a professional Lebanese army in charge of protecting Lebanon.

I also think that the border should get a DMZ for a while, as in Korea, as long as those guys, Israelis and Lebanese, do not make progress towards being able to live side by side.

This from a usually optimistic guy (!)



Take off and live
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7146 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5567 times:

So fare I have not seen any French commitment to put a force in Lebanon, I would be really surprized if they did, their last foray in Bosnia under quasi UN control was a disaster, re the safe zones incidents.
I really dont believe the French want to loose their polictical capital by having some of their soldiers killed in Lebanon by Hezbollah or Israel.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5547 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 1):
I thought the whole idea behind this war was to make the world a safer place?

Pretty good summary of the "progress", state of play, wonder what W calls it. Only things you missed were that Libya has changed some ways, ETA was won over by Spanish Govt negotiations and the Sinhalese extremists managed to set the Tamil extremists off again.

In Afghanistan, Iraq and Lebanon no attempt was made to negotiate. (No I am not going to answer 73 posts saying the Arabs never want to negotiate). It is clear that the major changes in terrorist threats have been achieved by negotiation. It may also be the case that there would be fewer like the UK suspects, if countries such as the UK had been less focussed on war and had paid more attention to the concerns of the communities from which they came.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
The French are in a very strong position, because they are the only 'politically-correct' people around with a big un-committed conscript army on tap. The United States, Britain, and Commonwealth countries like Australia and Canada only have small peacetime armies, and those are already fully-committed in other places, particularly Afghanistan and Iraq.

The US, the UK and Aus would simply be regarded as handy targets by at least one side. The Israeli disposal of UN posts would not be much of an encouragement either.

It is worth noting that an Irish captain (that is Irish Rep so not linking to the UK) interviewed the other night on Aus TV commented (memory here but the percentage is clear) that of about 100 casualties the UN force had suffered, 50% had been caused by non-Israelis and the other 50% had been caused by the Israelis. That does not augur well for the chances of any UN force put in to keep the peace.

I cannot quite decide whether the Israelis did not care about the UN or specifically were sending a message to armies that might volunteer to serve in Lebanon. Either way, it seems extremely short sighted.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 7):
So fare I have not seen any French commitment to put a force in Lebanon, I would be really surprised if they did, their last foray in Bosnia under quasi UN control was a disaster, re the safe zones incidents.
I really dont believe the French want to loose their political capital by having some of their soldiers killed in Lebanon by Hezbollah or Israel.

The French forces were attacked the last time and it would be surprising if they have forgotten it. Certainly the US has not forgotten it was attacked.


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7146 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 weeks ago) and read 5526 times:

Baroque I think one thing that the UN has not been firm enough about as an "impartial" broker is to stand on it's principle's.

The Canadian UN observer who was killed at the UN post, sent e-mail's - which have been made public - describing their situation, I would love to see the official e-mails to his boss, would he have specifically mentioned that Hezbollah was inflitrating their post?

The majority of the UNIFIL Force are deployed in Lebanon, so naturally, their "conditions" can be influenced by Hezbollah, how much are these forces mandated to "accept or allow" in order to carry on their duties, and are these duties then compromised in any way by "undue" influence?

In addition to the bombing, there is also more "bad blood" between Israel and the UN, a past kidnapping of Israeli soldiers was performed either using UN vehicles or UN identification, see the Har Dov kidnappings of 2000. That in no way means that the UN aided the event, but it would give the Israeli's pause when considering how much protection they will receive from UN forces.


User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5500 times:

Quoting Par13del (Reply 9):
In addition to the bombing, there is also more "bad blood" between Israel and the UN, a past kidnapping of Israeli soldiers was performed either using UN vehicles or UN identification, see the Har Dov kidnappings of 2000. That in no way means that the UN aided the event, but it would give the Israeli's pause when considering how much protection they will receive from UN forces.

Speaking of bad blood between Israel and the UN, see the Qana shelling on 1996, which hit a UN refugee camp and killed over a hundred civilians. The problem is, 10 years ago Israel used the exact same excuse - "Hezbollah fired at us from there", and people still buy it.

This is my post from the other thread, it is the last post and I have to share the link, which links to an article that I found to be superb:

I was just looking at pictures which were seriously painful in Lebanon, and I still can't come to terms to how easily people are willing to dismiss such a large civilian death toll while at the same time people went insane about 9/11 and the London bombings. Why is it that Arabs, whether in Palestine, Lebanon or Iraq can be dismissed as collatoral damage while Westerners can't? Why is it that you peopel have so much sympathy for Israel while at the same time Israel is killing civilians in the hundreds? I don't understand why Americans and supporters of this war can't at least look at it from a human or moral point of view instead of a political one - what if it was your child, your mother, your sister, your friend, or whatever kiled? Americans had a huge amount of sympathy for their own during 9/11, why can't they have the same kind of sympathy for Lebanese civilians who have done nothing to deserve to be killed in this way.

For all pro-Israeli members, I know you will not change your opinions, but open up your eyes a bit to the suffering of others:
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2006/07/18_gaza.shtml

Does it make sense to you that 1.5 million in Gaza suffer for one soldier and 4 million in Lebanon for two?


Excuse the bad english, i've been awake for 27 hours and only got 3 hours of sleep in the afternoon; i'm jet lagged like crazy.


User currently offlineLO231 From Belgium, joined Sep 2004, 2392 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5498 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 10):
The problem is, 10 years ago Israel used the exact same excuse - "Hezbollah fired at us from there", and people still buy it.

I don't. I've lost my respect to the Israeli's, sorry, just an opinion.

Regards,
LO231

Edit: I meant to say: government end their deeds, not the people of Israel, who suffer as well.

[Edited 2006-08-11 00:45:00]


Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7146 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5467 times:

QR332 I don't think that as far as rulers are concerned, there are any innocents on either side.

The UN is seen as a un-baised broker, unfortunately, it has had incidents which are not favourably to its cause. The current draft seems to only want Lebanese and UNIFIL troops deployed in the south, the Israeli issues with the UN pale in significance to the Lebanese. Based on the numbers of Lebanese civilians who have been hurt in and around UN camps without the UN doing anything to protect them, I would think that they more than the Israelis would not want the UN.

The UN is not going away, no one wants that, the world has to work harder to make it work. Lebanon has the option to have an international peace keeping force with "teeth" to protect them from Israeli aggression, rather than a UN force who will be essentially a watchman. The issue with this I think is that if a international force is deployed, Hezbollah will essentially be removed from the armed conflict on the southern border. If they are not disarmed, is there some fear in Lebanon that they will use their arms to take over the current govt?


User currently offlineMartinairYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 1209 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5455 times:

For this recent plane plot, and many wars, I blame Israel fully. They attacked Lebanon and now it is ruined (I thought they were against such destruction like WW2??) which incited the Arabs and they wanted revenge because USA doesn't stop Isreael becuase they have many ties (especially GWB).


How in hell can people have the slightest light to support a country that does this to another, and claims it aiming precisely? Total disgust at such a cannibalistic destruction. I'm not one to hope for bads but it would be fair if the same destruction happened on both sides for sure.













Chelsea Football Club supporter.
User currently offlinePulkovokiwi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5451 times:

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 13):

Blaming Israel for this latest plot to down aircraft is absurd. These nutters want to destroy western civilisation and commerce. It has NOTHING to do with the Lebanon situation.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5449 times:

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 14):
Blaming Israel for this latest plot to down aircraft is absurd. These nutters want to destroy western civilisation and commerce.

Oh good lord, can it be that I am in agreement with you?

signed just for you.....

"yet another uninformed Yank"


User currently offlinePulkovokiwi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5439 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 15):

We are in agreement break out the Tattinger.  Smile


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5427 times:

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 14):
These nutters want to destroy western civilisation and commerce

I think it's time to look very carefully at the question of how far things done for one reason can have an effect in a totally-different direction. The London Tube bombings, and now this airliner thing, show that somehow or other young people entirely brought up in Britain can be persuaded willingly to embark on suicide missions aimed at killing large numbers of civilians.

In effect, someone 'taught them to hate.' Taught them to believe that 'the West' was determined to make war on all Muslims everywhere, and therefore that all Westerners deserved to die. And, despite the fact that the (highly-efficient) British police have caught a few of them, the process of indoctrinating the young will be continuing.

In any teaching role, 'visual aids' are essential nowadays. I'm quite certain that photographs and newsreel shots of the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq are used to indoctrinate these kids, and that material from the Lebanon (like the dreadful pictures linked to by MartinXYZ) will already be in use as well.

[Edited 2006-08-11 04:43:34]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinePulkovokiwi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5417 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):

True and we can only be thankful that someone has talked . Sad that Britain has (in most cases) given them a far greater standard of living than their homeland but they are intent on reeking havoc. I am sure these creeps when not being indoctrinated go to western films,buy western clothing and music and milk the British social security system. One of them apparently is a 20 yr old mother with a 6 month old baby. Good old MI5!!!


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5405 times:

You'd expect an Anglo-Australian to bring cricket into any discussion at some stage, Pulkovkiwi.  

Sajid Mahmoud was born in Lancashire and is an England fast bowler. A couple of days ago he played the major part in defeating Pakistan in a Test Match at Headingley in Yorkshire - taking 4 wickets for 22 runs, a world-class performance by any standards. Every time he went down to the boundary to field he was abused as a 'traitor' by the 'Pakistani' supporters (most of whom were probably as English as he was):-

"England paceman Sajid Mahmood said he refused to let abuse from sections of the Headingley crowd get him down.

"During England's Test victory over Pakistan on Tuesday he was targeted by some fans who accused him of betraying his Pakistani heritage.

"I heard them calling me a traitor during my second spell, but I didn't let it affect me," said Lancashire's Bolton-born fast bowler.

"After taking one of his wickets Mahmood, whose cousin is boxing sensation Amir Khan, cupped his hand to his ear in response to the abuse he was receiving.

"They gave me a lot of chat down on the boundary and then I got that wicket and did that to see what they had to say then," he said.

"Every time I went down to that corner there were a couple clapping and there were a few hurling abuse, so I didn't know what to do.

"They didn't really shut up even after I got a couple of wickets, they just kept going."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/england/4775149.stm

Back in the 1950s the British commander in Malaya, General Templer, coined the phrase 'hearts and minds':-

"General Sir Gerald Templer was appointed High Commissioner and Director of Operations Malaya in 1952 at the height of the insurgency against the British authorities. The "Hearts and Minds" policies were based on those set in motion by military predecessors, but enhanced and strengthened by Templer. When asked if he had sufficient troops General Templer responded by saying emphatically that he had, adding that "The answer lies not in pouring more soldiers into the jungle but rests in the hearts and minds of the Malayan people."

Invading people and bombing shit out of them isn't going to help. We are up against the task of winning back 'hearts and minds.'

If I were 'in charge' of the situation in Lebanon, I would pull the Israeli Army out tomorrow and put in an international force consisting mainly of medics to set up field hospitals, engineers to build temporary bridges, and helicopters to distribute relief supplies.

And I'd ALSO send lots of photographers and TV crews to record their efforts.......  

[Edited 2006-08-11 05:26:59]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinePulkovokiwi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5401 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 19):

True mate true! If they don't like it in the UK send them packing!


User currently offlineCedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5380 times:

Guys please believe me all,Israel want the Litani river,destroy the Lebanese economy and plant terror in the Middle East.Israel cannot survive in a world full of peace and prosperity and their history is a good example.They feel superior to others and hallucinate with the promised land.By the way ,many Jews are against the existence of the state of Israel.In 1968 Israel bombarded the airport of Beirut and destroyed MEA airplanes I wonder where was Hezbollah than
Alex!!!



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5373 times:

Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
The UN is not going away, no one wants that, the world has to work harder to make it work.

Well Israel is doing its best to make sure it is of as little help as possible. I can see the weaknesses in the UN, but it is a heck of a lot better than nothing, and nothing seems to be what Israel and the destructive side of US politics want. And that is really strange because was there ever an organization controlled as much by a rump as the UN, and I mean the US rump, not the ones that the US usually points its finger at.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 19):
"General Sir Gerald Templer was appointed High Commissioner and Director of Operations Malaya in 1952 at the height of the insurgency against the British authorities. The "Hearts and Minds" policies were based on those set in motion by military predecessors, but enhanced and strengthened by Templer.

He should be #43s patron saint, but I wonder if 43 has heard of him or Malaya.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 19):
If I were 'in charge' of the situation in Lebanon, I would pull the Israeli Army out tomorrow and put in an international force consisting mainly of medics to set up field hospitals, engineers to build temporary bridges, and helicopters to distribute relief supplies.

I think you just got yourself elected Nav20! Careful, you could get elevated to Nav25 if not careful.


User currently offlineEurostarVA From Bahrain, joined May 2002, 1296 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5344 times:

Quoting Pulkovokiwi (Reply 14):
These nutters want to destroy western civilisation and commerce. It has NOTHING to do with the Lebanon situation.

What a sad and naive outlook, with no analysis, no questioning, and simplification of the issues in this world.

Snap out of your dreams and start questioning the question: WHY?

Bush would have you believe it's because "they hate freedom and the West.

The truth is, it's Bush's "conquest" of the East and evangelical support of Israel that's triggering all this hatred.

It's funny how some people turn a blind eye or simply don't care for the deaths of hundreds and total obliteration of urban areas simply because "they deserve it for standing up with Hezbollah".



If there is a will, there is a way
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7146 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5327 times:

Baroque Reply 22
"And that is really strange because was there ever an organization controlled as much by a rump as the UN, and I mean the US rump, not the ones that the US usually points its finger at."

In the early years of the UN that was probably true, but as mentioned in the previous version of this thread, the US has used its veto power more than any other of the permanent members, question is why?

My view of the UN in the last few years has been that it is becoming a entity unto itself, where it now attempts to steer its members rather than the other way around.


25 Dtwclipper : Because they have been attacked since 1948? I think it is the other way around. Come on Ceders, you can do better then that! That must be a typo, it
26 QR332 : That is a naive statement... while it is not the direct cause, events like this are exactly why terrorism exists today - Lebanon, Palestine, Chechney
27 NAV20 : We'll probably both get flamed for it, Cedars747, but I think the Litani, at least, was indeed one of the objectives. There's no doubt that Israel is
28 Baroque : I watched Bush rabbit on about "terrrrists" opposing freedom and wondered if he actually believes this or thinks freedom, like cheap gas, is somethin
29 Cedars747 : I prefer to be flamed but say the truth in the memory of the kids died in this terrorist attack on Lebanese civilians You are not surprising me ! man
30 DLPMMM : While all good and noble, what would you do when the aid workers, photographers, and TV crews you sent in are kidnapped and killed? Your policy sound
31 QR332 : I dare you to find me ONE that has been kidnapped/killed by Israel. The only aid or UN workers killed were by Israel, Hezbollah has never harmed anyo
32 NAV20 : First of all, DLPMMM, I was talking about sending in soldiers, not civilians. Although my strategy would involve a high proportion of specialists, th
33 DL021 : Dude, I did not even read much else. You are so offbase here it's unreal. The US forces occupy the most violence prone Sunni sections of the country
34 NAV20 : Straight 'chicken and egg' question there, DL021. The other way of looking at it is to ask yourself WHY the sections of Iraq occupied by US forces ar
35 Pulkovokiwi : How is he offbase when he presents factual information?????
36 Post contains links FXramper : http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2303062
37 Post contains images AA777 : So Israel has accepted the cease-fire deal. Its too bad the details of the UN draft have been so quietly kept. Lebanon rejected it because it would a
38 Post contains links NAV20 : Full text here, AA777. An optimist would say that it calls for a complete Israeli withdrawal; a pessimist would say it allows Israel lots of room to '
39 EDKA : What Israel wants is to live in peace and be left alone - its up to its Arab neighbours to accept it or reject it. Your comments above show why it is
40 Par13del : So far the only difference that I have seen with the current resolution versus what existed before July 12th is the inclusion of Lebanon in the Sheba
41 Baroque : I cannot in any way speak for QR332 but what comes to my mind from what was written is that most Arab countries did have considerable sympathy with t
42 QR332 : How can Israel expect to live in peace as long as it continues to do what it does? If Israel wants to live in peace, why is it occupying three territ
43 EDKA : AA777 - I also want peace. I also don't want to be screwed over by some militia terrorist group or its powerfull sponsor. I want Israel and Arab coun
44 Dtwclipper : What exactly would that be? Cease to exist?
45 NAV20 : I always think that the 'sacking' (excuse the old-fashioned word, I'm an old-fashioned bloke) of Fallujah was the turning-point, Baroque. Don't know
46 Post contains links Cairo : Israel is to blame if you consider their magical creation at the end of World War II incorrect. The Arabs and Muslims never accepted it as correct*,
47 Baroque : You might well be correct there, although I have the feeling that it had gone before that event (although there have been at least two and maybe thre
48 Par13del : Cairo Reply 46 "Why not just consider that the Israelis and Arab/Muslims are arguing over the same piece of real estate and that no side is 100% right
49 EDKA : Take one step at the time, ok? You are mxing several thing together here (Palestinians and the others), and you know full well that even though they
50 EDKA : it must be difficult for you not to link Israel to every thing which is wrong in this world, but if you can see through the red mist in your eyes, yo
51 Post contains links AerospaceFan : Forgive me for asking, but what of the alleged plot to destroy skyscrapers or other buildings in Ottawa and Toronto and to behead the Prime Minister
52 Post contains links Cairo : No one links Israel with everything that is wrong with the world. We only link it with Islamic terrorism. But thanks for trying the usual Israeli tac
53 Par13del : Guys how about a discussion of a solution, some of us outside of the region seem to think the 1967 borders could work, but this does assume the exista
54 QR332 : No, that would be for them to: a) Stop blowing things out of proportion with things like both the Gaza and Lebanon kidnappings of soldiers; killing a
55 Par13del : QR332 Reply 54 "But you cannot import hundreds of thousands of Jews from Europe, put them on Palestinian land, force the inhabitants who have been the
56 Cairo : The UN isn't blamed by the Arabs and Muslims because the UN in the 1948 was little more than a front for UK and American interests. Furthermore, the
57 Par13del : Cairo Reply 56 1. Define foreign involvement in the middle east, are we talking about politics, economic's or both. Politics I think is tied to Israel
58 Baroque : It is not difficult to extend that comment to suggest that the same tax dollars work to increase the risk of terrorism. OBL might well wake up each d
59 Par13del : Baroque "So stop imposing on the Middle East countries and do start a dialogue with them. Of course the person to whom the US should be talking is OBL
60 AerospaceFan : Cairo, I would still very much like to know why Canada faced the plot I mentioned above, given the predicate of your thesis. Canada has tried to be an
61 VANGUARD737 : Spoken like a true Jew-hating middle-easterner. You twist the facts and blame Israel. WELL, the pictures you posted would never have existed if it wa
62 Post contains images Migfan : Damn right, killing is business, and business is just fine... If memory serves, Israel's mossad is rather fond of that tactic. I do, the UN could not
63 Arsenal@LHR : Nonsense, the presense of Hezbollah is simply no excuse for the deaths of over a 1000 Lebanese civilians. It's also no excuse for the systematic and
64 Migfan : Does that work? Would that have worked in this case? Would it have worked quick enough to stop Hezbollah from launching it's missiles? /M
65 AerospaceFan : It is also a matter of whether you yourself would accept it as nothing more than a matter of negotiations if someone came to your country, took two o
66 Arsenal@LHR : Clearly, in a situation like this, what do you do? Do you aggravate and inflame the situation by storming into Lebanon, destroying their infrastructu
67 Post contains images Halls120 : It's always easy to blame someone else for your own misfortunes, isn't it? Yes, that's exactly what happened. Yes, the Palestinians got screwed. But
68 AerospaceFan : What alternatives exist, however? Israel has tried a number of options, including, in the past, negotiations. They didn't work. One should remember t
69 Post contains links Cairo : The main irritant from the Arab/Muslim perspective is the US one-sided support of Israel. This is the primary reason America and Americans worldwide
70 Dtwclipper : Egypt receives the second most in aide from the US. You know that very well, as it was pointed out to you many, many times before. Accept it. Sure, e
71 AerospaceFan : I appreciate your reiteration, but by "collective security guarantee" I'm essentially referring to a NATO-type arrangement for the Middle East with t
72 AerospaceFan : Well, you see, the bolded language in your message is interesting. If the Arabs never accepted that the decision was correct, what is Israel supposed
73 MainMAN : Whose stupid idea was it to put a burning flame against this thread? A.netters get posts deleted for stating opinions, daring to disagree with eachoth
74 Halls120 : What, you think everything comes down to a comparison of body counts? That is simply absurd. Israel isn't trying to exterminate Syria, Lebanon or Ira
75 Post contains links Cairo : The continuing effort of the pro-Israeli side to distort the facts is one reason why THE ENTIRE WORLD ranks America and Israel as the number one thre
76 Dtwclipper : 1. Please let me know how exactly Israel is connected to 9/11? Your logic here is very naive and misguided. Oh, I'm sure you can draw some radical co
77 AussieItaliano : And why should they? Should the American Indians have accepted the decision of the US government in the 19th century to drive them off of their land
78 Dtwclipper : Cool, with your logic, let's give back Sued Tyrol to Austria!
79 Post contains links NAV20 : Dead right, in my opinion. Sadly, just as this confrontation shows signs of ending, the seeds have already been sown for the next one:- "U.S. assures
80 Post contains links Baroque : Western powers need to talk to however they need to talk to. If you ask me, I doubt it really is OBL, my suspicion is that he is more bogey man than
81 Migfan : I never made a claim that it would not work. When People start launching missiles, it is a sign that they have abandoned all desire for negotiations.
82 Baroque : That cuts both ways as the man said giving his son a two edged sword. Using that logic, as soon as the IRA set off their first bomb, that was it for
83 AerospaceFan : It's fascinating to me that you would characterize Begin as a terrorist while many seemingly refuse to characterize non-Israelis as same. But that as
84 NAV20 : Agree, Migfan. That's what I thought when I saw the first missiles in this campaign arriving - Paveway-guided Durandals or similar, dropped by Israel
85 Migfan : Fighting should be the last resort to solving a problem. In this case, Hezbollah drew first. Hezbollah knew exactly what they were doing, and counted
86 NAV20 : Not sure at all that that was their strategy. But if it was, it's certainly succeeded. I haven't met anyone here for weeks who has a good word to say
87 Post contains links Baroque : Is there a problem with stating the facts? Begins membership for some years of a terrorist organization is acknowledged. I cannot quite work out if y
88 Migfan : I agree. Israel was acting in it's own best interest, just as it has always done in the past. Israel also does not tend to fight it's battles in the
89 NAV20 : Agree entirely, Migfan. One just has to hope and expect,as I do, that in the end that turns out to be the wrong way to run a country; as it has alway
90 Migfan : Don't get me wrong I am not slamming Israel. They are an advanced country, and live under unique circumstances. I have often been at odds to understan
91 Rammstein : Unfortunately, if Israel continues to care less of what the rest of the world thinks, the hatred against Israel will continue to grow, and the friend
92 Migfan : IMO, that was the reason for starting this whole mess. To corner Israel and label them as a blood-thirsty nation, and bring more powerful nations (Ir
93 AA777 : mmm. Well first of all that's illegal under the Geneva convention, to destroy civilian infrastructure. Best interest? So, now that they've killed X a
94 Migfan : Cortes vs. S.American natives US vs. Native Americans A friend? With a friend like that who needs enemies? See post above yours... /M
95 QR332 : Fair enough, but imagine the world we'd be living in if every single minority got its way. There are many, many minorities who don't have an entire s
96 AerospaceFan : But that's not what you said. You said that Carter negotiated with "one terrorist", not "a former terrorist". Begin at the time was the Prime Ministe
97 Migfan : I agree with you completely, but that is not the issue at hand. What the US govt did to the Native Americans was disgusting, but that was another tim
98 Par13del : Amazing how this entire conflict is coming full circle, and none of the combatants seem to be learning from each other, and those of us on the outside
99 AA777 : Your beloved GWB has made great friends with King Abdullah of Saudi. America turns its head as long as Saudi helps pump us full of oil. This is the h
100 EDKA : QR - regarding your posts i'm not going to respond to it point by point, as i do not have the time, and we will probably not agree anyway on some iss
101 Post contains images Halls120 : Sorry, but you are wrong. Extermination isn't measured by a comparison of body counts alone. A high body count could simply mean one party in a confl
102 MigFan : It goes bad farther than that! Unfortunatley it is all about money. The Texan oil barons will always find away to make politics a politically-profita
103 Post contains links NAV20 : As usual, now that large numbers of people have 'died in vain', the truth begins to leak out. This story will be 'officially denied' for the moment, o
104 Baroque : Sure looks that way but, AA777, just watch the spinners and tropism used to avoid this conclusion. Almost worth nominating it as an Olympics sport -
105 Pulkovokiwi : According to TV3 News tonight Olmert told the families of the kidnapped soldiers at the weekend that he is prepared to negotiate their release.
106 Baroque : With Hersh's story, we might as well start again. Perhaps our UK posters will wish to make an "Anthony Eden Suez award" for shooting yourself in the
107 Baroque : Well that would be a start, but what is the betting that Hez learn from Israel and refuse to negotiate under duress and define duress as being 30,000
108 Halls120 : And a significant record of making things up as he goes along. His own words.... "Sometimes I change events, dates, and places in a certain way to pr
109 Post contains links NAV20 : I see the whole article is available form the New Yorker's website. So people can read the whole thing and make their own judgment as to whether Hersh
110 Migfan : What is so interesting about it? /M
111 Halls120 : It's not a question as to how much of the article Hersh made up. it's the fact that Hersh long ago lost any reputation he may have had of being a jou
112 NAV20 : Just the sort of guy they give Pulitzer Prizes to, Halls120. So do you think the allegations in the article are true, or not?
113 Halls120 : At one time, Hersh was a journalist with integrity. Back when he was a Pulitzer Prize winner. That was then, this is now, and if he ever wins that ki
114 NAV20 : He was right about My Lai, Halls120, and right about Abu Ghraib. Given that no-one has sued him, one can assume that he was right about Mordechai Vanu
115 Halls120 : Over 30 years ago. Partially right. Once you subtract all the unproven and outrageous claims about you boys being sexually abused, of course. You wan
116 NAV20 : Only because it's the only thing you've said in reply to my posts, Halls120. In fact, I'm patiently awaiting your views on the issues raised in the a
117 Halls120 : Post 103 simply relays the Guardian article which is based solely on Sy Hersh. And I don't believe a single thing he writes about until someone with
118 Baroque : As I read through, I was going to add my 2 bits worth, but Nav20 has done enough. All I can do is to add my bit to his bet, let us make it 90,000 (Ru
119 Halls120 : Never said he was. Just that he has a self-admitted tendency to make things up as he goes along. Funny how all you Hersh lovers conveniently avoid th
120 Post contains links NAV20 : We know exactly where they are, Halls120. Nuclear processing plants are huge, there is no way they can be hidden. We can be quite certain that they h
121 Baroque : I don't especially agree that he exaggerates - usually his subjects are so awful there would barely be room for exaggeration. But even if he does, ho
122 AerospaceFan : Thank you for our answer, Baroque, but I'm not too sure what you mean when you say, Would you kindly clarify?
123 Pulkovokiwi : And how has he made it up? You are talking about "New Yorker" mag making things up. Yeh right!!!!!
124 Post contains images Halls120 : By all means then, enlighten us and give us their exact coordinates. So why do you believe an unsupported Sy Hersh allegation regarding an impending
125 DL021 : Sy Hersh has been wrong more than once, and there have been continuous reports lately of people altering photographs and making crap up. A bit bloodth
126 Pulkovokiwi : You are factually incorrect. Israel started the conflict and planned it long ago with Uncle Sam's complicity. Fact not fiction.The kidnapped soldiers
127 NAV20 : 'Seek and ye shall find,' Halls120. Please look at the information I provide next time, the locations are all spelled out, and shown on a map, on tha
128 Dtwclipper : Other then this "New Yorker" piece, do you have some source for this accusation?
129 NAV20 : Hang on - the allegations have been made, and printed in newspapers all over the world. What's interesting to me is that no-one in the US government
130 Post contains images Halls120 : which can be applied directly to your post avoidance as well. Yes, the globalsecurity.org map is fascinating, I sure hope you don't expect the Pentag
131 Dtwclipper : OK, which newspapers please, any one will do.
132 Post contains links NAV20 : Please see post 103 above, Dtwclipper. Edit - Or just google - latest newspaper to write it up seems to be the Belfast Telegraph.......... http://www
133 Dtwclipper : that's a quote about Semour Hersh....I asked for something other then this article. "The veteran investigative journalist Seymour Hersh writes in the
134 Post contains links NAV20 : Dtwclipper, there has been a lot of speculation in the British press for several weeks that Tony Blair knew about the Israeli attack in advance. This
135 Pulkovokiwi : "San Francisco Chronicle"...............................
136 Pulkovokiwi : Are you saying an award winning Pullitzer journalist is lying? Most a.netters would believe Hirsh than the nonsensical spin from Jerusalem and Washin
137 NWDC10 : Nothing suprises me but there is talk about Israel going to war with Syria and using "Non Conventional" weapons. Syria has removed their land mines wh
138 Post contains links NAV20 : Of course not, Halls120. But they can rely on satellites and photo-reconnaissance. If anyone wants to know what a plutonium processing plant looks li
139 Post contains links Baroque : "Sir Rodric Braithwaite accused the Prime Minister of failing to defend UK interests and of doing more to undermine Britain's position in the Middle
140 Post contains images Cedars747 : Baroque,you are an Idol......Bravo ! your have just made an historic statement Alex!!!
141 NAV20 : I have a theory, Baroque. You can call it 'APD,' 'Assured Personal Destruction,' if you like. I think the motivation for both BushCo and the Israeli
142 Baroque : The worst part of that post is you could be correct. There were some very strange goings on after the WTC went down. APD, I must remember that, goes
143 AerospaceFan : It's interesting that you would so broadly attribute to the Administration the various "injustices over the years" while neglecting to evaluate the i
144 Pulkovokiwi : He never said "EVIL" . Have to agree with him that the US and Israel are the prime troublemakers in the world today. Bush needs bashing you are obvio
145 AerospaceFan : "Devil theory" is a term of art, and it is so used here. Besides, in many ways, injustice is a form of evil, is it not?
146 Pulkovokiwi : Depends whether injustice has an evil intent.
147 Post contains links AerospaceFan : But that's begging the question. Your initial criticism was there was no evil. But the rejoinder is that no evil is necessary for a "devil theory" to
148 Dtwclipper : No, I just wanted a secondary source, that is a perfectly legitimate concept. And to be honest, I do have some issues with Hersh. I'm not sure if YAK
149 NAV20 : Please note, AerospaceFan, that I was referring to the Middle East, not the whole world. And I coupled the USA with Israel. Even beyond that, I just
150 Post contains images Halls120 : Why is the focus always on the injustices suffered by one side? Why isn't there an admission that the injustices inflicted upon the Palestinians by t
151 Par13del : NAV20 Reply 152 "I think you've put your finger on the root of the problem there. The USA uses its power as a Security Council member to keep the UN p
152 Frequentflyer : Generalization leading to oversimplification. French policy does not discriminate, it is rather egalitarian. The nature and origin of the immigrants
153 Par13del : FrequentFlyer Reply 155 "Besides, being against US policies does not mean that ethnic groups in France are going to fall for French foreign policies.
154 Post contains images Frequentflyer : I for sure do.
155 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Great, Halls120 - maybe one day we'll meet for a beer in Willard's Hotel. Believe me, I've no wish to see DC vaporised, it's among my all-time favour
156 ImperialEagle : Typical mis-information blog that we hear around the world ad-nauseum. The truth is that Hezbollah snatched Israel's soldiers and then lobbed rockets
157 Baroque : It might just be because there are few cases where the US does not stridently assert its views and in many cases use its veto to ensure that they hol
158 AGM100 : No matter who you choose to blame , the outcome of this war is a disaster for all civilized countries. The implication that a armed organization with
159 Baroque : And alas, some Americans chose not to have learned much from that experience. Of the ones who have, many are truly admirable and wonderful world citi
160 Post contains images Halls120 : My preference would be the Old Ebbitt Grill, but would be pleased to hoist one with you at the Willard next time you are in town.
161 AA777 : Lebanon was calling for a ceasefire. Not Hezbollah. If you will recall, in one of his Televised speeches at the beginning of the conflict, Nasrallah
162 Post contains images Cedars747 : Alex!!!
163 Post contains images Migfan : What is so hard about that? /M
164 Par13del : Well AA777 I thought that Hezbollah was already the only army to really defeat the Israeli's since they forced their uni-lateral withdrawal from Leban
165 AA777 : The fact that Israel never really pulled out of all of Lebanon...the Shebaa farms area. So its true that Israel never really left Lebanon alone. Yes
166 AGM100 : OK If you say so , sure alot of Hezbollah / Lebanese flags being waived around in the Victory celebrations. Maybe Hezbollah didn't get the memo about
167 AA777 : yes, its a big plan. Who the hell was promoting Hezbollah "until the bombs start falling"? Again, you prefer to group inaction as the same thing as a
168 Post contains images FOMEA : Try this : Tell Israel to return all Prisoners and Get out of the Shebaa Farms and Stop Flying their Spy Planes on daily bases (that didn't do them a
169 Post contains links and images BMIFlyer : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4794363.stm "Syria and Iran have praised Hezbollah for what both describe as the group's defeat of Israel
170 AGM100 : Unfortunately its a plan that the Innocent people in Lebanon do not get to choose to be part of. It is Hezbollah's plan. The people dying are just me
171 FOMEA : So you are saying, taking prisoners is a small thing? in your case, Capturing two soldiers should be a small thing............................... or
172 RJpieces : The real test will be in the coming weeks as tens of thousands of Lebanese return home to find their homes, villages, livelihood destroyed...I have a
173 QR332 : ROFL! You failed to reply to me in the last thread... what makes you think that the population of South Lebanon will blame Hezbollah, and not the peo
174 AGM100 : Yes I think militarily speaking they are small operations, but Israels responce in retaliation is always the same. In most cases they attmept to be o
175 RJpieces : I responded; the thread was deleted. Because there will inevitably be blame against Hezbollah. Hezbollah did in fact start the current conflict, whet
176 Dtwclipper : Maybe we can stop trying to put the blame on one side or another, and take this truce to find a viable peace! I want to go to Beruit, Jerusalem, Petr
177 QR332 : Amen! Best thing said in this thread so far, DTW..
178 ImperialEagle : Oh yeah! More of the same spin ad-nauseum. For the most part the U.N. is made up of countries hostile to Israel in any event so "big surprise" they p
179 FOMEA : Um, you are more Lost than "She" Is. Where on Earth did you hear Lebanon has Oil or Oil-Financed Palaces of Gold and Cash? Regards F-OMEA.
180 OD720 : And what will he do? Let's say that he destroys the whole of the south and the rest of Beirut. What will that achieve? Will that solve the issues in
181 Halls120 : Washington Post is reporting this morning that Hezbollah is balking at leaving southern Lebanon and disarming. What a surprise......
182 ImperialEagle : Correct---I was referring to the MAJORITY of the Middle Eastern countires-----run by Autocracies of great wealth----and teaming with poor people who
183 Post contains images ThePRGuy : Thanks PR
184 Baroque : Whatever separation there was just got blurred by some bloody great big bombs. Bombs have a habit of leaving confusion behind them. Just as it was ne
185 Post contains images QR332 : Wow... this, I like to call the "argument of ignorance" - they are jelous of us and they hate all democracies because they don't have the same rights
186 Post contains images Cedars747 : Good idea Dtwclipper,just lets add Tehran to the list so we have a BINGO Hasta la vista in BEY Sincerely yours ! Cedars747
187 AGM100 : Yes , Israel was once again in Lebanon to try to stop cross border attacks. Lets face it , you guys need Israel to attack you evey couple years. How
188 NAV20 : Fair go, Halls120, give it time. Israel hasn't pulled out of Lebanon yet. I'm sure that in due course the Lebanese Government will sort out a deal. T
189 Halls120 : I hope you are correct. But given the slow response of the UN peacekeeping effort and the weakness of the Lebanese government, I'm not so sure. Hezbo
190 RJpieces : Sounds good to me...And if they attack Israel again, a Lebanon-Israel war will be "fair game", yes?
191 NAV20 : None of us can be sure, Halls120. Courtesy of USrael, Hezbollah is now the most potent political/military force in Lebanon, if not in the whole of th
192 AerospaceFan : I must say that there are days when I find reading a lengthy thread such as this one exhausting, and yesterday was already a particularly tiring day f
193 AA777 : I dont think tourism will be gone for a decade. The Lebanese are very resilient people. My family and I will return to Lebanon as soon as possible to
194 AGM100 : Again , your angle is always about Israel making a concession in order to achieve peace. Let me rephrase it for you. I think if Lebanon and Syria off
195 NAV20 : Thanks in my turn for your unfailingly polite and constructive contributions to all debates, AerospaceFan. Agree entirely, except that 'disarming Hezb
196 Post contains links NAV20 : Peace in return for restitution of all illegally-acquired land has been on offer since UN Resolution 242 in 1967, AGM100. Israel has never handed ove
197 Frequentflyer : OK AFan, have some rest! And then, I'd be curious as to what you mean by that.
198 AGM100 : Exactly correct , Am I missing where Hezbollah, Hamas ,Leb, Syria, Iran have ever conceeded this? Again , all propaganda aside . It seems to me that
199 Post contains images Cedars747 : Nice one you are an Idol NAV20....welcome to my respected users list ! With all my respect Alex!!!
200 Halls120 : What makes you so sure that the extremist islamists won't keep pushing Israel back?
201 QR332 : Because the only reason the extremists exist in the first place is what Israel has done. There are no extremist Islamists in Syria, and Hezbollah in
202 Cedars747 : In my opinion ,the best way to let USRAEL pay for what they have done to Lebanon and the Arab world is simply BOYCOTT BOYCOTT USRAEL Alex!!!
203 Par13del : QR332 Reply 201 "Because the only reason the extremists exist in the first place is what Israel has done. There are no extremist Islamists in Syria, a
204 Scintx : Freaking Brilliant!- Allow me to give my disclaimer. I'm pro Jewish, but I have many issues against Israel. . I've been barking go back and address 1
205 AGM100 : Cant let that one go by , Thier are plenty of excuses to be pissed of on both sides. But the fact is that the moment the Israelis hit the ground the
206 Par13del : AGM100 the quote was from QR332 I copied his reply to unquire about his inclusion of the Golan Heights in the Lebanon conflict with Israel. My concern
207 Post contains images FOMEA : O wow, Someone sounds too Optimistic. RJ, I will make you a deal. The day you become optimistic About Lebanon and start thinking outside, war, civil
208 AGM100 : I am afraid it has alreay happened , the ink was hardly dry on the last resolution when Leb and France changed their view of it. Iran and Hezbollah h
209 RJpieces : Just heard a story on Fox about a Lebanese General being arrested (in Lebanon) for having had tea with Israeli troops....Weird.....
210 Post contains images Dtwclipper : There's one in Livonia, but I'll get you a pass to Beth El in Bloomfield Hills or Kol Ami in West Bloomfield!
211 Post contains images FOMEA : Sounds good. Actually, i have been to Congregation Shaarey Zedek Twice. Lets hope RJ changes. Regards F-OMEA.
212 NoUFO : But they planned to do exactly that, or what do you call a plot to bomb the Christmas Market in Strasbourg? (Or was it Nuremberg? I only recall how G
213 Post contains links NAV20 : Par13del, no. the Golan is Syriam territory. But I was talking about peace on Israel's northern border, which includes Syria and the Golan, so that h
214 RJpieces : More and more people are coming to that conclusion as Israel gives up land and it only results in more attacks on Israel. The argument that "occupati
215 Post contains links NAV20 : About 'disarming Hezbollah,' interestingly, the text of UN Resolution doesn't actually call for it; just 'emphasises the importance' of it:- "3. Empha
216 RJpieces : What is there to be optimistic about? Can you really say Lebanon is in good shape right now? Best case they have a UN force come in to disarm Hezboll
217 NAV20 : Actually, RJPieces, it IS perfectly normal for a society under attack. That was very much the spirit that the 1940-41 Nazi blitz awoke in Britain; an
218 Post contains links and images FOMEA : Future. No one said that. Here is what you actually Said : Quoting RJpieces (Reply 172): The country was destroyed, tourism will be gone for a decade
219 RJpieces : Again, what is there to be optimistic about in Lebanon? Not true...September 11th drastically shaped my worldview... I still maintain that Lebanon wi
220 Baroque : Thanks FF, I wondered if I was the only one who was worrying away about the French diluting or not diluting whatever it was. I mean they are not goin
221 QR332 : No, you completley understood me... if the Shebaa Farms are given back to Lebanon, Hezbollah won't have a reason to attack Israel anymore; the rocket
222 Halls120 : Egypt and Jordan are sovereign nations with responsible leadership. Lebanon and Syria, the backers of Hezbollah, have shown little if any responsibil
223 QR332 : Really? Show me how many times Syrians and Iranians have attacked any other nation (and please, don't give me the proxy war crap) and compare that to
224 Post contains images Halls120 : Syria has funded Hezbollah - probably Hamas as well - continuously. Syria needs to stop supporting terrorist groups if it wishes to gain credibility.
225 Baroque : The RJ argument sounds awfully like the "first Austria, then the WORLD" line. So we now learn, slightly to our amazement, that occupation is good and
226 Post contains links RJpieces : Ummm, what the heck are you talking about? http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...60817/NEWS06/608170462/1012/NEWS06 South Lebanon and Gaza; not to m
227 QR332 : Maybe if Israel actually tried to make a deal with them, they would do just that. Until then, why should Syria care about a country which occupies it
228 Baroque : Well cricket was what I was talking about. Ponting received a slating in the Aus press for the well-known crime of smiling. All FOX (the proprietor d
229 RJpieces : So you are saying that it doesn't matter that the said incident actaully did occur and was reported in other sources...But it's important that it MIG
230 Post contains links Baroque : I will await a suitable bit out of Media watch and message it to you. Media watch is full of material stolen or put out of context. The less it is ch
231 Kay : I just want to express my hapiness that this silly war finally ended (opening a new thread will probably be impossible). I understand Israel's origina
232 Post contains links NAV20 : Looks as if any '15,000-strong UN force' is a non-starter. The French have said that they will contribute 200 (two hundred) people only, plus ships. A
233 CasInterest : It is a scary situation for all countries involved. Currently the cease fire appears to be nothing more than a break in the action. Nothing fundement
234 NAV20 : Stand by what I've said throughout, CasInterest - the first step towards peace, in the case of Syria and Lebanon, is for Israel to offer to give them
235 AerospaceFan : You're quite welcome. My pleasure, as always. On the face of it, it does seem unrealistic to expect that the Lebanese Army could be capable of doing
236 ME AVN FAN : why is that strange thing coming up again and again ? Were the US-Americans so badly hurt by a few unwise remarks of those three Saudi students ? wel
237 Post contains links NAV20 : Dead right IMO, ME AVN FAN. To put it as shortly as I can, in answer to RJPieces, military force has NEVER succeeded in defeating a people whose caus
238 ME AVN FAN : Middle East Conflict Discussion -- CFlyer From United States, joined Nov 2004, 14825 posts, RR: 100Reply 167, posted Fri Aug 4 2006 23:48:48 UTC+2 and
239 ME AVN FAN : - While in reality, Beirut right now is rather better off than London in 1971/72, 27 years AFTER the war. I am fully aware of the fact that the Israe
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