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9/11 Paranoia Kept Man Locked Up 5 Years  
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2081 times:

..Without being charged with a crime, I might add.

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a...30409990006?ncid=NWS00010000000001

This is the kind of crap that has made the U.S. look so bad in the eyes of world, following the initial outpouring of support following 9/11.

This is stuff that happened in the U.S.S.R, and should NEVER have happened in the U.S. This man committed no crime, excpet he was a Muslim male, and for that, the U.S. kept him confined for 5 years.

That is a crime within itself.

And please-dont' tell me that catching the real terrorists is worth locking up someone with no terrorists ties for 5 years. It isn't, when an innocent man is incarcerated without charge, without consel, and seemingly without hope.

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineItsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2808 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2066 times:

Adding insult to injury is the fact that no one will be held accountable for stealing 5 years of this innocent man's life.

User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2022 times:

... and this has me wondering how many more are in jail yet still not charged over the WTC attacks...

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21877 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2012 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
This man committed no crime, excpet he was a Muslim male, and for that, the U.S. kept him confined for 5 years.

Well, let's not say that he committed no crime. He did stay in the country longer than he was supposed to (a visa violation), and with him being Middle Eastern added to that, it's not hard to see why the authorities would have been interested in him.

His actions being suspicious, however, do not merit him being held in limbo for five years, particularly when he was apparently found not to be a threat in November of 2001. He should have been released right then and there, and put right into hearings as to what should happen to him, since he couldn't stay in the United States without being granted asylum.

That's a pretty big black eye for the US judicial system as far as I'm concerned.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2008 times:

Two sides to every story. We remember the New York Times fiasco a few months ago when they published another sob story like that, only see published elsewhere that their "victim" came from a whole family of convicted, hardened terrorists.

US authorities would never keep a man in custody just for the fun of it. There must have been some reason for their suspicion (rightly or wrongly) for which we don't see a hint in this article, which only gives one side of the story.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1973 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):

Leave it to Charles to justify the unjistifiable! Thanks, Cfalk, for coming to the aid of the government!


User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1959 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
There must have been some reason for their suspicion

Suspicion != Proof. Or are you not in favor of that whole 'innocent until proven guilty' thing?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
US authorities would never keep a man in custody just for the fun of it.



Quoting Tom Hay - AP:

The veiled accusations and vehement denials would continue for nearly five years - despite official findings in 2001 that he had no terrorist links and in 2003 that authorities had violated his rights by colluding to keep him in custody.

...

The FBI grillings stopped sometime in November 2001, when an internal report was prepared saying he was cleared. On paper, he was no longer a terror suspect.

No one bothered to tell him.

Apparently, they did.



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineItsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2808 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1936 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
only see published elsewhere that their "victim" came from a whole family of convicted, hardened terrorists.

Ah yes, the ol' "guilt by association" sentence. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm all for looking at someone a little harder when they either associate with undesirables or even come from a family of such but to prison them solely for that reason....sorry, there's just no justification for that.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
There must have been some reason for their suspicion

Good boy. Corrupt government leaders thrive on the blind faith you exhibit.


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1899 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 5):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):


Leave it to Charles to justify the unjistifiable! Thanks, Cfalk, for coming to the aid of the government!

I'm not justifying anything. I'm just saying we don't have the full story.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 7):
Ah yes, the ol' "guilt by association" sentence. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm all for looking at someone a little harder when they either associate with undesirables or even come from a family of such but to prison them solely for that reason....sorry, there's just no justification for that.

If your whole family, including both your mother and father are convicted extremists with Al Qaeda ties, when your brother is Al Qaeda, and you trained in an Al Qaeda camp, I think that is more than just association.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1866 times:

Has anyone here asked why he was seeking asylum in Canada, where he was taken into custody, on the eve of the attacks?

He, by his own explanation, entered this country under false premises, and instead of explaining his situation to US authorities he tried to leave at a particular time which turned out to either be incredibly bad timing for an Algerian air force officer acting squirrely, or something else.

I don't think he should have been kept for 5 years unless they were planning a tribunal for the guy and did not think they had enough for a court case after the USSC decision, but that's another topic.

Too many jump to the worst case conclusion about the governments actions and take this guys word for it that his version is the truth.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1862 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
Too many jump to the worst case conclusion about the governments actions and take this guys word for it that his version is the truth.

What do you expect? The government, by its own admission, had zero evidence and had cleared him by November 2001. They then kept him imprisoned for another four years, despite that fact.

Tell me, what conclusion do you want us to draw from that evidence?



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1846 times:

Quoting MattRB (Reply 10):
What do you expect? The government, by its own admission, had zero evidence and had cleared him by November 2001. They then kept him imprisoned for another four years, despite that fact.

I asked why people don't consider the possibility that he was taken for good reason, and then perhaps the government did not have enough to take him to trial, but still considered him a threat for some undisclosed reason.

People want this war on terror to be one of criminal law, and it's impossible to make it so. There are far too many who immediately assume the worst instead of considering that perhaps what's happening is for our benefit.

I said that if this guy was held by mistake then that's wrong, but all we have is the opinion of the writer of that article and the guy. I did not see where any DHS people were allowed to explain the whole thing.

I don't know that we have enough to assume the worst.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineThePRGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):

This is shocking - and your right - this is partly how the US gets its bad image in the eyes of the rest of the world.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 1):
Adding insult to injury is the fact that no one will be held accountable for stealing 5 years of this innocent man's life.

Yeah, thats rubbing salt into the wound.

Thanks
PR


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1809 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 8):
If your whole family, including both your mother and father are convicted extremists with Al Qaeda ties, when your brother is Al Qaeda, and you trained in an Al Qaeda camp, I think that is more than just association.

Somewhere in Hell, Joe McCarthy is smiling broadly.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
Too many jump to the worst case conclusion about the governments actions and take this guys word for it that his version is the truth.

After the countless lies and half-truths this administration has peddled on the American people, Ian, I have trouble taking the governments' side on almost anything these days.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1798 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
Too many jump to the worst case conclusion about the governments actions and take this guys word for it that his version is the truth.

After the countless lies and half-truths this administration has peddled on the American people, Ian, I have trouble taking the governments' side on almost anything these days.

But you agree there is room for error in the initial assumption?



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineRAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1790 times:

I don't understand why this deserter could not have been just deported back to his country. He was not facing any prosecution in Algeria prior to his desertion, and thus would not have been entitled to asylum in this country. If he disagreed with the situation in his country, and the acts of the military, he could've easily resigned his commission--no doubt this is possible in Algeria.


MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1787 times:

He was evidently trying to defect from his own country, which makes me wonder why.

The Algerian government has been in a war against extremist muslims for years (the kind who massacre entire villages who don't cooperate) and he was running from the government. More questions.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1786 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
I asked why people don't consider the possibility that he was taken for good reason, and then perhaps the government did not have enough to take him to trial, but still considered him a threat for some undisclosed reason.

Your disregard of habeas corpus makes you just as bad, if not worse, than the terrorists.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1779 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
He was evidently trying to defect from his own country, which makes me wonder why.

Read the article again, Ian. He says why-he became dissilusioned with what he was seeing in his own nation.


User currently offlineRAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1768 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
dissilusioned

I'm "dissilusioned" about a lot of things in the US, but I suck it up and deal with it.

"Dillisusioned"? Sounds fishy to me. Most important he was neither being asked to persecute anyone, nor was he the target of any government (or islamo-fascist) persecution.

Seems to me that absent something "fishy", he was just looking to go to one of the countries with big BX's, and great welfare laws.



MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1762 times:

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 19):
"fishy"

With your disregard for habeas corpus, maybe you and DL021 should join up and form a group.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1732 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 18):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 16):
He was evidently trying to defect from his own country, which makes me wonder why.

Read the article again, Ian. He says why-he became dissilusioned with what he was seeing in his own nation.

I'm going to read alot more about this. Remember that I don't excuse him being held if there was no reason, I'm simply saying that it looks like there's two sides to this. You appear to be taking his word for it. I'm not ready to do that.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 17):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
I asked why people don't consider the possibility that he was taken for good reason, and then perhaps the government did not have enough to take him to trial, but still considered him a threat for some undisclosed reason.

Your disregard of habeas corpus makes you just as bad, if not worse, than the terrorists.

I guess President Lincoln was worse than terrorists then. I don't believe that the terrorists merit protection under our civil laws. I believe we're in a war, and during wars prisoners are held until the war is over, and they have no civil rights while that's happening.

Now, am I going to call you a terrorist sympathizer because you demand that foreign terrorist suspects who are acting funky while we're being attacked and lying to get into this country get treated like citizens? I don't know....do you think it's productive to get really insulting?



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1725 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Without being charged with a crime, I might add.

First the Time article and now this in the one night, too much already Falcon. But an interesting article to read just after watching Andrew Denton interview the admirable Major Michael Mori, the Marine corps defender for David Hicks, a long term resident of Guantanamo. What Mori made clear was if you were a US citizen and you committed a crime, you could expect to know what the crime was supposed to be and would go through a proper court procedure. If you were not a US citizen, forget it - so far. And he does not seem optimistic that the next try from Congress will be any better.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 20):
Quoting RAPCON (Reply 19):
"fishy"

With your disregard for habeas corpus, maybe you and DL021 should join up and form a group.

Mori makes it clear that so far, if you are not a US citizen habeas corpus is not a concept the US knows about. If it were not serious, his account of the charges would be funny. That seems to me to be the residual gripe about the Bush administration, the are hopelessly incompetent as well. And the most public demo has been after Katrina.

But as was pointed out in another thread, the extent to which the 9/11 commission recommendations have not been acted upon is another disgrace. For some reason, they seem to think having some folk locked up is progress.

Mori pointed out that some who were directly associated with the Taliban government have since completed studies at US universities while the likes of Hicks and this other guy are locked away in solitary.


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1718 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 21):
I don't believe that the terrorists merit protection under our civil laws.

What nonsense is this? A person only becomes a 'terrorist' in the eyes of the law when they are charged, tried and convicted. You would throw away our laws and legal precident - the things that made the West what it is today?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 21):

Now, am I going to call you a terrorist sympathizer because you demand that foreign terrorist suspects who are acting funky while we're being attacked and lying to get into this country get treated like citizens?

A suspect is a suspect and is INNOCENT until proven guilty. This is basis of the entire legal system throughout the Western world. You're willing to disregard that, and with it change entirely the way the West works. To me, that makes you as much of a terrorist as anyone else who wants to change our way of life.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1706 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
A person only becomes a 'terrorist' in the eyes of the law when they are charged, tried and convicted.

So, the guys who flew the jets into the buildings weren't terrorists because they had not been tried? The people who tried to bring liquid bombs onto the airplanes the other day weren't terrorists? You are applying our level of civilization to other places where they'll use it against us. Our criminal justice system is designed to work on people who simply want to advance their own cause through crime or murder on an individual scale, not on people looking to destroy our society through large scale massacre, or terrorize us into changing our foreign policies.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
You would throw away our laws and legal precident - the things that made the West what it is today?

Never would I throw out our system. I'm also not prepared to be strangled by people using it against us. I won't let people waging war against us hide behind our civil law. Do you think we should send our law enforcement personnel to Afghanistan to deal with people who violate our laws, or do you think we should send Marines to deal with them?

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
A suspect is a suspect and is INNOCENT until proven guilty.

So what you're saying is that you think we should treat the war on terror as a criminal matter and try to bring the terrorists to justice by our internal standards when they don't even come from the same level of civilization much less a similar justice system?

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
To me, that makes you as much of a terrorist as anyone else who wants to change our way of life.

And there's where you're turning hysterical and crying about the sky falling. I simply don't see the need to apply civil law to the war on terror when it prevents us from stopping the enemy. Do you think that the latest investigation into the British Muslim plans for attack kept legal niceties all the way around (do you really think that the allied intelligence services that conducted most of the investigations did anything similar)? Did the SAS play fair when dealing with IRA terrorists? Are we supposed to allow people to hurt us simply because we don't have enough evidence to take them to our civil courts, or should we act to prevent people from hurting us and accept the possibility that we'll be wrong sometimes but feel better safe than sorry?

I'm no terrorist, but you are for inflicting those accusations on me. By accusing me of being that which I'm not and seeking to discredit my thoughts you're acting the same way that you are accusing the authorities of acting.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
25 Post contains links Baroque : 'No, no!' said the Queen. 'Sentence first - verdict afterwards.' from Chapter 12 of Alice's adventures in Wonderland. I wonder if Carroll ever though
26 Cfalk : Hang on there. The Geneva Conventions recognize that in times of war, the criminal justice system is not used, right? Simply being a member of the op
27 777236ER : The Geneva Convention was always written with a traditional WWI-style war in mind. The POW rules were clearly designed to apply to a traditional soldi
28 Myt332 : Thing is, all this crap is called, "The War On Terror". Terrorists don't wear uniforms generally and they walk amongst us. It does and thus I don't a
29 Cfalk : Agreed. The Geneva Conventions are entirely inadequate for today's needs (hence the whole debate these past 5 years). Agree that new rules need to be
30 777236ER : That's evidently true. But just as we should be protecting the lives of our civilians, we should also be protecting our way of life. That includes ou
31 DrDeke : It's funny how there seem to be so many more non-Americans expressing these sentiments on this forum than Americans, even though the sentiments were
32 Post contains images Gilligan : Where does it say he is a citizen of the United States and therefore eligible for all the rights and responsibilities of said citizenship? How many r
33 DL021 : Discussions like these get taken off-track rapidly by accusation throwing and screaming bloody murder. The screamers get indignant and then deny start
34 Baroque : The whole focus on a war on terror totally distorts treating possible terrorists. What the terrorists want to do is a crime in any country I know of.
35 Cfalk : To repeat myself, that only deals with an event (possibly costing thousands of lives) that has already happened. I don't want that. I want them stopp
36 Baroque : Well so far the alternative you are favouring has been acting as a recruiting agent. Even Joe McCarthy never had ambitions to lock folk up on the bas
37 Pulkovokiwi : Which part of anything does Bush not understand!
38 Pulkovokiwi : Who on earth are our people? Do you belong to a cult?
39 Cfalk : Our people = citizens of the civilized world.
40 Pulkovokiwi : Thank God for that I was getting worried.
41 Baroque : About the worst thing to do is to divide the world into us and them and this is what "our" people does. This is making the same mistake that some of
42 Cfalk : No, he's not crazy or stupid. He's go**amned EVIL. Stop the PC bullshit. Something as evil as islamofascism must be crushed. Not negotiated with, not
43 Post contains images Turbo7x7 : LOL! Relax, dude. Don't get your panties in a wad. Talk about the islamofascists taking over the world or WWIII being some cataclysmic struggle betwe
44 Cfalk : I know it won't happen - not in our lifetimes anyway. But their declared purpose is to take over the world, to conquer it in the name of Allah and su
45 Jaysit : Sir, I must ask you...do you have no shame?
46 Cfalk : You dare to ask me that?
47 MD80fanatic : Hmmm, when the term Islamofascists becomes part of one's daily lexicon....it is obvious to me that the person in question watches far too much Fox Ne
48 Greasespot : If this person was so dangerous that they were justified in locking him up for 5 years...as some here are saying.....Why did they let him go now....Wo
49 Cfalk : fas·cism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fshzm) n : a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or libe
50 Post contains images Md80fanatic : By that definition, I suppose we in America would be Christofascists then? BTW....fascists are normally right wing and found in collusion with a corp
51 Post contains images Turbo7x7 : You mean my NYC taxi driver is an Islamofascist? LOL! Dude, you REALLY need to chill out. Just get laid or do something fun. Yes, terrorism is a terr
52 777236ER : Whilst the point you're making is perfectly valid, 'fascism' has always been more nationalistic than anything else. It was also pretty secular. The c
53 Baroque : OK, then just write about 100 to 200 words and enlighten us all as to the nature of the islamofascist threat, explaining its basis in the islamofasci
54 Turbo7x7 : Thanks and yeah, my problem solving approach is very much based on dealing with reality as it is and not as we wish it to be. This strange phenomena
55 FDXMECH : Abe Lincoln suspended the Writ of Habeas Corpus. What door was open that wasn't shut? Political correctness aside, I heard Lou Dobbs (CNN) coin this
56 Post contains images FDXMECH : When such Christians fly airliners into skyscrapers, certainly. Huh? IMO, this opinion on doublespeak is well.....doublespeak. IMO.
57 Baroque : I suspect this thread will soon be put to bed and that will happen without my being any closer to knowing what an Islamofascist really is. Sigh, and j
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