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Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?  
User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2180 times:

Below is a portion of a story of which re-print permission has been granted.

Ok, lets think about this for a second. Below is a portion of a story of which re-print permision has been granted in order to comply with a.net's communistic standards for posting. An illegal immigrant single mother is hiding in a church for fear of being deported and wants to stay. Let's see, she cannot speak English, for one thing, broke the law by coming into the country illegally, was convicted of using a fake SSN for working as a cleaning lady at ORD and deported, and broke the law a third time coming back into the country. Now, she just wants to stay because she is afraid of being possibly seperated from her son, a US citizen. A church has given her temporary sactuary, and authorities say they will arrest her in due time.

Poll: Should non-English speaking, 3 time law breaking, illegal immigrant be allowed to stay in the US, or should she be given the option of being deported, with or without her son?

And why should she believe a church can protect her from the INS?

I say DEPORTATION!!!




A prominent activist for illegal immigrants sought sanctuary in a church Wednesday rather than turn herself in for deportation, saying she fears being separated from her young son.

Elvira Arellano, an illegal immigrant who took refuge at Adalberto United Methodist Church in Chicago, gives interviews before the alter of the church.

"I am single mom. My son, he is citizen," Elvira Arellano, a Mexican national, said from just inside the doorway of Adalberto United Methodist Church. "I am not terrorist. I am not criminal. I am mom. He is my son."

Arellano, speaking through a translator Tuesday, said her 7-year-old son, Saul, worries that they will be separated.

"I want to stay here for my son. I want to give him a better future, a better life," she said.

Arellano, who was deported shortly after illegally crossing into the United States in 1997, is president of United Latino Family, which lobbies for families that could be split by deportation.

She says she returned within days, lived in Oregon for three years and moved to Chicago in 2000. She was arrested in 2002 at O'Hare International Airport, where she was employed as a cleaning woman, and subsequently convicted of working under a false Social Security number.

Arellano was ordered to appear at the immigration office in Chicago at 9 a.m. Tuesday, but instead went to the church.

Pastor Walter Coleman said his congregation offered Arellano refuge after praying about her plight. Coleman said he doesn't believe Arellano should have to choose between leaving her son behind or removing him from his home.

"She represents the voice of the undocumented, and we think it's our obligation, our responsibility, to make a stage for that voice to be heard," he said.

Federal officials declared Arellano a fugitive and said living inside a church does not offer her protection from arrest and deportation.

"There's nothing that prevents us from arresting anyone who has an outstanding deportation order anywhere in the United States," said Tim Counts, a spokesman for Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

"We will apprehend her at a time and place of our choosing," Counts said.

Arellano has received support from several Democratic politicians over the years. Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., said he introduced a private bill that provided Arellano one stay in her deportation proceedings, but that there is nothing more he can do.

"It is an unfortunate truth that scores of people are in the same situation as Elvira and her family," Durbin said in a statement. "We cannot fix injustices of this system with private bills; only comprehensive immigration reform can permanently remedy this situation."




OttoPylit

93 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2175 times:

Lol, she had to speak through a translator.

Not only is she an illegal immigrant, she's the worst kind. Those that won't integrate.

Deport her. And throw in jail anyone that harbors her.


User currently offlineUsnseallt82 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 4891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2175 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
Should Churches Given Haven To Illegal Immigrants?

Yes.

Should they interfere with the law when officials come knocking on the door? No. But I think they have every right to provide shelter until that person is arrested.

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
Federal officials declared Arellano a fugitive and said living inside a church does not offer her protection from arrest and deportation.

Sad but true.  checkmark 



Crye me a river
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2161 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
she's the worst kind. Those that won't integrate.

Sorry, I don't see how you can qualify that. Britain has retained the cultures of immigrants, whereas France has forced them to immigrate. Our race relations are much better than those in France.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2155 times:
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Sorry she is a criminal, send her back.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2151 times:

Quoting Elvira Arellano:
I am not criminal.

I'm sorry ma'am, but you are. You entered the country illegally, multiple times and are now trying to use your son as a shield to prevent you from being prosecuted and removed.

You are a criminal. As are those you give voice to.

Give her the option - leave with or without your son. She can apply through normal channels once back in Mexico.



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2151 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):
Sorry, I don't see how you can qualify that. Britain has retained the cultures of immigrants, whereas France has forced them to immigrate. Our race relations are much better than those in France.



[Edited 2006-08-17 19:45:51]

User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13113 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2143 times:

Churches (and other religious facilities) have become havens for illegal immigrants in the USA and elsewhere and is part of their long traditions. In the USA, religious facilites helped legal immigrants in the past to intergrate with the country and community and still do. Illegals cannot really go to a government run facility for help and that is exploited by their cheap employers. Therfore Churches have become the only real alternative. I would say that there are limits. Businesses and people whom employ illegals are breaking the law and committing a sin against God. Churches should put pressure on the employers of illegals that they are exploiting them and should be called out for their sins. As to the illegals themselves, Churches do have an obligation to help them, but there are limits and a time when they must 'render to Ceaser' and obey the law or they are commiting sin too.

User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2143 times:

To answer the question, yes, but only because they are morally / spiritually / whatever-ly obliged to


Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10018 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2130 times:
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Churches can provide "shelter" in the strictest sense - that is, she can wait for enforcement authorities under the church roof. The fact that a church is a religious institution does not exempt it or its workers from the law.

My question is this, however: if the church "fails" to report her presence there, and she's discovered later, would the church have broken the law by aiding a fugitive or whatever?

Frankly, if I had a fugitive in my house, I'd try and get them the hell outta there, preferably straight into the hands of police.

I assume the son is an American citizen because he was born in the US. Well, that's a chance she took when she immigrated illegally. So her son has only his mom to blame if they do get separated.

Just my two cents.

~Vik



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineNkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2664 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2097 times:

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 9):
if the church "fails" to report her presence there, and she's discovered later, would the church have broken the law by aiding a fugitive or whatever?

Simply, Yes!!! While churches are pretty much more than happy to help folks (they run shelters, etc.), they still are not entitled to break the law. I do believe the Bible states they are to clearly follow the law of the land!



I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlineFDXMECH From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2097 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):
Sorry, I don't see how you can qualify that. Britain has retained the cultures of immigrants, whereas France has forced them to immigrate. Our race relations are much better than those in France.

You may be right. The frying pan is more comfortable than the fire.



You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2082 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
Poll: Should non-English speaking, 3 time law breaking, illegal immigrant be allowed to stay in the US, or should she be given the option of being deported, with or without her son?

she should be deported, after first serving her mandatory life sentence in a Mexican style prison under the 3 strikes you're out law.

no illegals should ever be allowed to stay under any condition whatsoever. Any business they've built up to be confiscated as part payment of the damage they've done to society, any property they've collected confiscated for the same reason.
Most of that property is likely stolen anyway.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineLobster From Germany, joined Oct 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day ago) and read 2058 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
I say DEPORTATION!!!

Amen to that

[quote=777236ER,reply=3]Sorry, I don't see how you can qualify that. Britain has retained the cultures of immigrants[/quote

This ISN'T Britain. Just because we speak the same language and have similiar customs, does not mean that we share every custom and set of values. I think most people agree that legal immigration is the only way to come to that States and that learning ENGLISH is the right thing to do. Don't like it? Then don't immirgrate here for me to pay your welfare and healthcare and everything else. I say build the wall!!


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 1 day ago) and read 2056 times:

I guess the first thread, same subject, into which I replied this morning was deleted.

So . . . .

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
Poll: Should non-English speaking, 3 time law breaking, illegal immigrant be allowed to stay in the US, or should she be given the option of being deported, with or without her son?



Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
I say DEPORTATION!!!

End of story.


User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 2039 times:

I am all for the toughest border security possible. However, once they are here (especially with children born here that are now citizens by default) another road should be taken. If she is deported without her son, she will be back soon (wouldn't you do the same thing?). You cannot deport a citizen so her son will have to stay. Considering both options....it would be more prudent to place her into a program that would allow her to become a citizen legally, at her expense of course. I couldn't justify the expense of deporting her only to be forced to track her down and deport her again once she inevitably crosses over to be with her son.

Churches that have become "non-profit" entities by filing a 501C3 form with the IRS are not considered safe haven from government actions (it's in small print). Those churches smart enough to remain independent offer the same protection as that afforded to foreign embassies, and law enforcement agencies are not allowed to act freely on their sovereign property.

If you have a huge hole in the dike (dam), water that has already passed is no longer that important, is it? Wouldn't the logical thing be to immediately fix the hole so no further water is allowed to pass?

If you think about this in the -longrun- fashion, you have to agree that there will be NO more Mexican illegals in America after 2010. At that time, the American Union will be in full swing...all peoples from Canada and Mexico will be citizens of the superstate and allowed unfettered access to the entire region. If you, at that time, have a problem with the situation....you will be able to petition the government on the steps of the new capital, in Atlanta Georgia.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 2036 times:

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 16):
Those churches smart enough to remain independent offer the same protection as that afforded to foreign embassies, and law enforcement agencies are not allowed to act freely on their sovereign property.

I beg your pardon . . . .

Naturally . . . .

So if I read your comment right, I cannot act as a Law Enforcement Officer on Church grounds? I cannot apprehend a suspect on Church grounds? I cannot execute a search warrant on Church grounds? I don't give a damn what kind of Form the Church filed or failed to file. My commission doesn't terminate when I pull in to a Church parking lot. Nor does my duty to uphold the law.


User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 2034 times:

If someones life or limb is at risk by allowing a suspect to stay inside the church....they yes you have the duty to protect, no argument there. If the situation is not "grave" as the one this lady is in....then, provided the church has not signed away it's rights of independency, she is under the protection of essentially diplomatic immunity and can not be touched (legally).

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 2033 times:

Source Please.





User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 2029 times:

I'll see what I can do (later of course). I have 20 minutes until I have to SS and S (sh*t, shower, and shave) for the workday.  Wink

Hasn't this always been the rule though, the true "seperation" of church and state?


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 2025 times:

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 20):
Hasn't this always been the rule though, the true "seperation" of church and state?

I certainly can't find it, I've googled my ass off . . . . and I've reviewed Alaska Statutes . . . there appears no restriction under Alaska law.

It's yours to source . . . I'll be here all night, every night, for the next 14 days.


User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 17 hours ago) and read 2022 times:

That's cool.  Smile CYA later.

User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 17 hours ago) and read 2022 times:

I say deportation, along with her son. But the son, as a US citizen, may come to the US to live when he is 18.

User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 2004 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
Poll: Should non-English speaking, 3 time law breaking, illegal immigrant be allowed to stay in the US, or should she be given the option of being deported, with or without her son?

And why should she believe a church can protect her from the INS?

I say DEPORTATION!!!

Deportation, yes. But not because she doesn't speak English.

Churches are free to provide all the shelter they want. But any if church members or officials try to stop federal agents from entering the premises to enforce the deportation order, they should likewise be arrested, charged, and prosecuted.


User currently offlineUsnseallt82 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 4891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 14 hours ago) and read 1989 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
I certainly can't find it, I've googled my ass off . . . . and I've reviewed Alaska Statutes . . . there appears no restriction under Alaska law.

I guaran-damn-tee you it ain't no Texas law.  Big grin

I'll be waiting for his source as well.



Crye me a river
25 Post contains images OttoPylit : Yep, you are correct. A certain a.net moderator who's name does not start with G and end with O has the letters arnetpalmett in the middle did not re
26 MattRB : She had that option readily available to her already and didn't take it. Boot the son too. He can come back when he's 18 and sponsor his mother in th
27 Ilikeyyc : In my opinion, Chruches should be allowed to supply illegals with humanitarian needs such a as food, shelter, showers, etc. No church should help them
28 Srbmod : Any church that gives safe haven to illegal immigrants should have their tax-exempt status revoked (Same goes for these politicking churches telling t
29 Jetjack74 : The most irritating thing is, is her contention that she is a modern day Rosa Parks. This woman isn't even in the same league as Ms Parks. The honoura
30 ANCFlyer : Still waiting . . . . .
31 Post contains links and images Lobster : I agree with you completely. I do recall a Law and Order episode a while back about something similar to this. Though obviously I don't get my legal
32 Post contains images ANCFlyer : " target=_blank>http://www.slate.com/id/2147879/ This article is fine - but does NOT quote law. I have not seen, nor will you find, a law on the books
33 Post contains images Lobster : I think you scared him!!
34 Post contains images MD80fanatic : Nah, I'm not scared at all. Oddly, I feel I need to explain my Friday to all of you nosey people. _______________________ I worked from 7:00am until
35 ANCFlyer : Never intimated that you were. You'll have to see Lobster about that. Nor could I give a rats ass about your Friday. And I'm still waiting . . . Sour
36 Luv2fly : Well if they are giving safe haven to illegals than change the church status to hotel and charge them taxes! That would get her ass out of there.
37 Slider : I'm not Catholic and would gladly risk the wrath of the Almighty by going into that church, cuffing her in front of the altar, and dragging her ass ou
38 Post contains images MD80fanatic : As I said above.... I wasn't guaranteeing a source.....only that I would give an honest effort. I have spent a few hours this morning digging around..
39 Ctbarnes : *sigh* Once again we have an unwinnable argument between people who can't think beyond their own prejudices... In the first place, adherence the law i
40 Halls120 : It's called a warrant, duly issued by a court with jurisdiction over the case. Based on the Immigration and Naturalization Act, 8 USC Code et. sec. N
41 Ctbarnes : There is a lot more to human dignity than due process. That is part of the fallacy when human life is reduced down to mere actions at law. Charles, S
42 Halls120 : So how has her dignity been negatively impacted?
43 MesaMXORD : Hell I was looking at moving to Germany... What did I do? I started learning German, sadly job did not pan out. If I were to move to another country
44 Post contains links MesaMXORD : http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,209442,00.html Here is a little more specific source
45 Captaink : 1. Learning the language is of utmost importance. I am living here in MExico and I had to learn spanish cause no one aint speaking english here. I me
46 ANCFlyer : Thanks, saved me having to post this . . .
47 Ctbarnes : What makes you think I drew such a conclusion? All I said was human rights and dignity cannot be reduced to matters of due process. Charles, SJ
48 Halls120 : If she had all due process rights afforded her, whether her dignity was or was not intact isn't really the issue, because dignity doesn't come into p
49 Post contains images MD80fanatic : You are comparing Adolf Hitler to Elvira Arellano? Impressive. If you spent a little time reading, you'd know that several times in history heinous c
50 MD80fanatic : Oh yeah, why haven't the jackboots broken in to arrest this felon? Since they apparently have a *warrant* as you say....what is the delay? Surely they
51 Halls120 : I chose Herr Adolf because I KNEW you'd try to equate the two. You see, it matters not who the individual is, he or she cannot expect to break the la
52 Ctbarnes : Human dignity is not a legal concept, it is a moral concept, and enough electronic ink has been spilt on this topic over and over that I'm really not
53 MD80fanatic : If they are holed up in a church....where are they going to go? I'd wait it out rather than attempt to exert human force in God's house....that is no
54 Halls120 : IOW, you've raised an issue you aren't prepared to debate, so you are going to cut and run. I am fully aware of the difference between legal and mora
55 Ctbarnes : Because I get really tired of the small-minded bigotry that seems to permiate this discussion every time it is brought up. It also does not seem to m
56 MD80fanatic : Well, I don't have a congregation. If I did though, I would certainly be giving them legal as well as political advice based upon laws which superced
57 Halls120 : Well, you couldn't be more wrong, but at least you are intellectually consistent. I'll give you that. When? Where? Under what circumstances? Even if
58 MD80fanatic : Remember Elian Gonzales? The image of a thug holding an assault rifle to his head was etched into all our consciences. What a bad day in the history o
59 Halls120 : The travesty of that event was that we allowed it to last as long as we did. Don't know about you, but I don't think separating a son from his father
60 MD80fanatic : Look 'em up. I spent a few hours this morning doing so. It wouldn't kill you to do the same. Legal precedence?...I don't know. All I can say is it wa
61 ANCFlyer : What a laugh. Wanna tell that to a couple hundred catholic priests in a couple hundred places? As but one example of exactly how WRONG you are, and e
62 MD80fanatic : It's more like thousands rather than hundreds. I have never supported the criminal priests at all ever? Can you cite one example when I did? I have a
63 Post contains images ANCFlyer : No question there . . . . you win this one hands down . . . Opinions vary. What a crock . . . they were hidden, transferred, hushed up, covered up .
64 MD80fanatic : Can I point out that throughout this entire thread, you have been promoting the idea that Elvira be seperated from her son (who is a citizen) through
65 MD80fanatic : How about a crime of monumental proportions? The church erred badly in not properly investigating and punishing those guilty, and they, as representa
66 MD80fanatic : The laws of the land are irrelevent to me. For example, I don't steal because it is against the US law, I don't steal because it is wrong. As long as
67 Post contains images ANCFlyer : And you don't harbor, or condone the harboring, of a fugitive within the walls of a church either? Riiiight???
68 SFOMEX : Slider, it seems that your reading skills are not better than hers are. Alternatively, perhaps all the rage you feel inside is blinding you and you c
69 MD80fanatic : That's the rub ANC. God's law has been set aside by the government when it decided to no longer respect the church's right to sanctuary. We are suppo
70 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Tax-Paying Americans are the Victims . . . for every single Illegal Immigrant. Her son was born here - correct? Any bets on who bought that ride??? S
71 MD80fanatic : Whatever ANC, the true church bows to a different master.
72 Luv2fly : Only if you believe in a so called higher power!
73 SlamClick : I believe that the idea of churches offering sanctuary is widely misunderstood. It probably originated in feudal Europe where people who had fallen ou
74 MD80fanatic : I think, by definition, most churches do indeed believe in a higher power. The true ones certainly do.
75 Post contains images Halls120 : what a BS response. Challenged to post evidence to support your position, you respond with "I found it, you can too." Do you really think anyone take
76 Slider : Once again, we have someone who thinks in emotive and not intellectual terms. It has nothing to do with prejudice! That dog won't hunt. It has everyt
77 Post contains images AvObserver : I couldn't care less whether or not the churches believe they atone to a higher power or think laws are unfair. That does not make their premises a sa
78 Post contains images MD80fanatic : SHUT UP Slave, Nobody asked you anything. Know what? I hope millions more illegals cross over into the states. That is exactly what this fat, dumb, a
79 Post contains images Halls120 : Actually, you're being a bit easy on our resident moral supremicist. The arrogance that reeked from his post above was truly amazing. The typical lib
80 Post contains images Fly727 : If the grounds for deporting someone is not speaking English correctly, perhaps you should also start seeking shelter in a church. How can a guy, bet
81 Post contains images OttoPylit : How did I not speak correctly? Apparently, whatever I said could be understood. My words were able to be placed together in order to form sentences.
82 Post contains images Halls120 : Getting to you, aren't I!!! Gives me great pleasure to realize that when all else fails, you turn to the insult rather than reasoned discourse. I'm q
83 Post contains images Fly727 : And so the immigrant lady, through a translator. Wouldn't it be just as valid as your English? Anyway, have a good week y'all RM
84 OttoPylit : Nope. I was able to speak in English, the majority language of the U.S., to where anyone who speaks English would be able to hear and understand. And
85 Ctbarnes : So, to use your logic, The Declaration of Independance should have been signed because it undermined the rights of law abiding Brits? It would seem t
86 Halls120 : Setting aside the obvious fact that you are comparing apples and oranges, your comparison doesn't work. The English colonists settled here with the p
87 Ctbarnes : Why not? You can make the case we were in their land illegally. Charles, SJ
88 Par13del : Interesting thread, my country also has a immigration problem, and the arguments are very similar. In the US, every child born on US soil is a citizen
89 Slider : Great response....you beat me to the punch. I was going to mention that point of due process. The Illegals have had MORE than their share of due proc
90 Halls120 : Nice deflection Charles, but that dog won't hunt. Can't change the rules of the game you set forth. YOU didn't make it a colonists vs. natives issue.
91 Post contains images Planespotting : Hey OttoPylit it's proper courtesy that if you have been given permission to re-produce a news story, you should also cite the author of the news stor
92 Post contains images Ctbarnes : Whatever. Charles, SJ
93 Slider : Anyone have an update on this? I've not heard hide nor hair of it... I'm surprised it hasn't been more of a lightning rod.
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