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Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?  
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 10 hours ago) and read 1560 times:

This excerpt from an article in the New York Times is an eye opener. To think that in 2006, educated people are openly calling for the murder of people who don't share their particular world view is fairly depressing.

Quote:
Violent Remarks
British Law Against Glorifying Terrorism Has Not Silenced Calls to Kill for Islam
By SOUAD MEKHENNET and DEXTER FILKINS
LONDON, Aug. 20 --- From his home on the northwest edge of this city, Muhamad al-Massari runs a Web site that celebrates the violent death of British and American soldiers. It is visited by tens of thousands of people every day, he said.

Mr. Massari maintains the Arabic-language site, tajdeed.org.uk, in the face of a strict new law aimed at curtailing violent speech and publishing. Just last week, the Council of Holy Warriors, a group affiliated with Al Qaeda, posted a declaration on the site praising a suicide bombing in Iraq that killed or wounded 55 people.

"If you kill our civilians, we kill your civilians," Mr. Massari declared during an interview.

Mr. Massari's Web site, and his public remarks, appear to violate of the Antiterrorism Act of 2006, which makes it a crime to glorify or encourage political violence. Inciting violence has long been illegal here but the new rules, drawn up after the London subway and bus bombings in July 2005, are intended to be much tougher.

The law's underlying assumption is that speeches and publications by Britain's more extreme Islamists may play a role in leading disgruntled young men toward violence. In addition to banning speech that encourages terrorism, the new law also criminalizes reckless speech that may have the same effect.

Yet despite the antiglorification law, and an array of other measures approved since last summer's bombings, Islamist leaders like Mr. Massari persist, some of them declaring it the duty of British Muslims to kill in the name of Islam.


58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 hours ago) and read 1544 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
To think that in 2006, educated people are openly calling for the murder of people who don't share their particular world view is fairly depressing.

People like that are doing more for the demise of organized religion than any atheists could ever do.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 hours ago) and read 1542 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
People like that are doing more for the demise of organized religion than any atheists could ever do.

Very true. One can't help wishing that all those people willing to die in the name of their religion, actually would.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 hours ago) and read 1527 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
People like that are doing more for the demise of organized religion than any atheists could ever do.

They all will end up with the same result.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 2):
One can't help wishing that all those people willing to die in the name of their religion, actually would.

Nope, because most people who wished to die in the name of religion are much more willing to take others with them. I wished they all desired to live.


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 hours ago) and read 1520 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
To think that in 2006, educated people are openly calling for the murder of people who don't share their particular world view is fairly depressing.

People like that are doing more for the demise of organized religion than any atheists could ever do.

Exactly what I was thinking. The more I see of organized religion, the more I think we'd all be better off without it.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 hours ago) and read 1510 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 4):
Exactly what I was thinking. The more I see of organized religion, the more I think we'd all be better off without it.

The usual aim of religion is the preservation of life at any cost. Once you remove a moral imperative for the preservation of life, all bets are off. So to me, religion has a purpose to fill. The problem is when you take any belief system, such as religion, or political system, to justify the killing of those who oppose you.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 hours ago) and read 1502 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 5):
The usual aim of religion is the preservation of life at any cost

Hmmm - tell that to, ummm, just about everyone except the Buddhists. Every organised religion at some time or another has actively advocated the killing of those with differing opinions. "Stone the blasphemer", anyone ?


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 hours ago) and read 1502 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
People like that are doing more for the demise of organized religion than any atheists could ever do.

...with a huge 'yeah but'

Why is it that radical, jihadist Islam is most effective as an argument against Christianity.

It is my admittedly limited observation that Jews are rejecting only the most "orthodox" aspects of their faith but continuing vaguely to believe, whereas Christians are not just rejecting snake-kissing but becoming atheists.

It is my belief that if the trend toward rejection of religion continues the last ones left will be fundamentalist, Taliban-like Islam.

Need I say that I don't see this as a good option.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 hours ago) and read 1500 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 5):
The usual aim of religion is the preservation of life at any cost.

No. That is the most basic human impulse, religious or not.

Religion is about imposing rules and enforcing conformity, almost always including the threat of death against non-conforming individuals.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 hours ago) and read 1490 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
To think that in 2006, educated people are openly calling for the murder of people who don't share their particular world view is fairly depressing.

It's why I'm becoming to believe, more and more, there is going to be a cataclysmic showdown between the Islamic world and the Western World. Too many in Islam don't want to live and let live, it seems.

Well, if they want that showdown, there's an old saying: be careful what you wish for.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 hours ago) and read 1490 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7):
It is my belief that if the trend toward rejection of religion continues the last ones left will be fundamentalist, Taliban-like Islam.

Just as long as we rid ourselves of the fundamentalist, Taliban-like Christian extremists on the way  Smile


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 hours ago) and read 1480 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7):
Why is it that radical, jihadist Islam is most effective as an argument against Christianity.

I don't see what you're getting at.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7):
It is my admittedly limited observation that Jews are rejecting only the most "orthodox" aspects of their faith but continuing vaguely to believe, whereas Christians are not just rejecting snake-kissing but becoming atheists

I don't know too much about the jewish side of things, but I see all of that happening on the christian side of things as well.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7):
It is my belief that if the trend toward rejection of religion continues the last ones left will be fundamentalist, Taliban-like Islam.

Need I say that I don't see this as a good option.

I see that as an excellent option, actually, if everybody else were enlightened nonreligious people and the Taliban were the last ones to follow!

It's the religious fanatics' argument that their fanaticism made them strong. But in reality, that is not the case. They can just achieve some damage, but they're falling by the wayside eventually.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 hours ago) and read 1474 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 6):

Hmmm - tell that to, ummm, just about everyone except the Buddhists. Every organised religion at some time or another has actively advocated the killing of those with differing opinions.

In any of these discussions, lets try to keep to the present time, shall we?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
It's why I'm becoming to believe, more and more, there is going to be a cataclysmic showdown between the Islamic world and the Western World. Too many in Islam don't want to live and let live, it seems.

What really freaks me out is the similarities between the 1930s and today. The more history I read the more scared I have become. And with the coming real estate crash, now you have a worldwide recession coming.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 10):

Just as long as we rid ourselves of the fundamentalist, Taliban-like Christian extremists on the way

But as an aside to that, I havent heard of many Christian extremists calling for the death of non-believers.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 hours ago) and read 1469 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
if everybody else were enlightened nonreligious

Boy, talk about an elitist statement, there's one.

Just because you don't like religion, nor practice a faith, Klaus, does not make you "enlightened". In my mind, it makes one ignorant, because I do believe in God, and I do have faith in Him.

Again, don't lump everyone who is in an organized religion, or has faith in God, in with the Taliban, or the nuts on the Christian right.


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 hours ago) and read 1469 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 12):
ut as an aside to that, I havent heard of many Christian extremists calling for the death of non-believers.

Hmmm, I reckon there's some out there that would call for just that if they could get away with it. Some of those fundies are pretty scary - look at that woman protesting at US military funerals - she'd have the Inquisition up and running in a heartbeat if she could.


User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8074 posts, RR: 54
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 hours ago) and read 1461 times:

6. Thou shalt not kill.

And it's in all the other religions as well. Someone tell Bush, Blair, Bin Laden, Olmert.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 hours ago) and read 1459 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 12):
But as an aside to that, I havent heard of many Christian extremists calling for the death of non-believers.

Their high times are a few centuries in the past - but it's apparently still enough to bomb abortion clinics.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Boy, talk about an elitist statement, there's one.

Not in the least. Overcoming religion is possible for everybody, and the numbers are rising.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Again, don't lump everyone who is in an organized religion, or has faith in God, in with the Taliban, or the nuts on the Christian right.

The conclusions and the methods are different, but the basic superstition is the same.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 hours ago) and read 1451 times:

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 15):
6. Thou shalt not kill.

And it's in all the other religions as well. Someone tell Bush, Blair, Bin Laden, Olmert.

And in other places of the respective scriptures death, fire and brimstone are happily being rained down on those who refuse to fall into line, with "eternal damnation" just being the icing on the cake.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2384 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 hours ago) and read 1451 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
Is Killing For Any Religion Acceptable?

No and it never will be.


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 hours ago) and read 1443 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 10):
Just as long as we rid ourselves of the fundamentalist, Taliban-like Christian extremists on the way

You show me where they are and I"ll help eliminate them.

Where is the established Christian church that dynamites Buddhist temples?

Where is the established Christian church that believes in death by stoning but stipulates that if a woman is to be stoned to death she shall be buried up to her shoulders so that her breasts aren't damaged? (I don't even want to think about why THAT is important!)

Where is the established Christian church that openly (meaning on TV) calls for their faithful to kill non-believers?

And so on...

I'm not talking about 400 years ago. I'm talking right now.

A little honesty and a little perspective, please.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 hours ago) and read 1439 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
I don't see what you're getting at.

It is really quite simple.

Millions of westerners, disgusted by what Islam seems to stand for, and what it condones are giving up their Christian faith and feeling guilt over, and even denying the Christian heritage of Europe and North America.

Atheism is REALLY trendy now - among ex-Christians only.
Look around you!



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 hours ago) and read 1434 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
and the Taliban were the last ones to follow!

Sure, because out of 1.2 Billion Muslims one ten or twenty are extremists, right?

Wrong.

The number of Muslims who publicly (in their own circles) cry out for the destruction of the west is probably already in the millions.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 hours ago) and read 1434 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
but it's apparently still enough to bomb abortion clinics.

And then tell us, how many did those bombings kill? And when was the last time that occurred? And did the US government prosecute those responsible?


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 hours ago) and read 1426 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Just because you don't like religion, nor practice a faith, Klaus

Oh but he does! He likes his own religion - atheism.

Atheists are not agnostic, they KNOW there is no God. They have SEEN the no-God. The no-God has talked to them. Atheists are very fundamentalist, very organized in their KNOWLEDGE of the non-existence of God.

Agnstics would never kill for their beliefs - having none. Atheists WILL kill for theirs.

There very well be no God, but fear the atheists.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 hours ago) and read 1424 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 14):
I reckon there's some out there that would call for just that if they could get away with it.

This is entirely the product of your own imagination. You "reckon" it. Show us where they are.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
25 Falcon84 : Not my fault there's so many ignorant ones in the world, Klaus. I have my faith, and I will keep it. I do not go to a Church now, but that doesn't me
26 Halls120 : You may be right, although I'm not sure anymore that all the blame belongs on Islam. Extremists within that religion are certainly responsible for st
27 JGPH1A : It's not trendy. It's just applied logic. Source please. It's not millions. Thousands maybe, those who REALLY believe it, in other words about 1% of
28 AndesSMF : And how big is that group? I doubt there is 50 of them in the US. But how many Muslims are actively preaching against those Muslims crying out for th
29 JGPH1A : Hard to tell - the disturbingly puritanical trend in one half of U.S. society would have one believe that this kind of fundamentalism is spread wider
30 AGM100 : How do you propose to counter a enemy who wants to kill you for your religious believes?. I think the US has done a pretty good job fighting the war b
31 SlamClick : Applied logic? All right let's use some logic. Can you prove a negative? Next! It is not logical, it is an emotional belief in the non-existence, it
32 Falcon84 : I don't know about that one. Didn't the war in Iraq or Afghanistan first have the word "Crusade" in it? And there's no doubt that was used as a reaso
33 SlamClick : Ahh, at last, an admission that you have nothing to say. Five hundred years ago. Exactly! Silly me, using present tense in my posts.
34 JGPH1A : Perhaps it should - at least it would settle the question of whether "freedom of religion" equates to "freedom from religion". I'm not an atheist, I
35 AGM100 : Falcon , I new you would nail that ... and your right. But for the most part the President has talked up freedom more than religion. I was refering t
36 Falcon84 : I agree, although I was absolutely aghast when that word was used. What was the name of the "operation" and was it in Iraq or Afghanistan? Understood
37 SlamClick : I think I recall Dubya using that word - once! It is very common in US English to refer to a long-term campaign toward a definable goal as a 'crusade
38 AndesSMF : Then the opposite would be true as well, the number of Christian extremists here would be the same percentage as the number of Muslim extremists, in
39 Klaus : What gives you that idea? I've never heard of that. Nonsense. Refusing superstitious beliefs - whatever form that may take - is a consequence of know
40 JGPH1A : You are missing the point. It seems that Islam, as a younger religion than Christianity (around 700 years younger) is going through the same upheaval
41 Falcon84 : That might be-to us here in the west, but to even put that word in a conflict against Islam is just ignorant. Yes, that one will go down with "Dewey
42 Klaus : Nope. There is simply no evidence for a god, nor any need for one in the universe from everything we know. There is, however, a strong need in the hu
43 SlamClick : Oh but you do. It is your absolute faith in something you cannot prove - the very definition of faith. But I am repeating myself, post the rest of my
44 SlamClick : So apparently you don't believe in science or logic either. Did you ever hear this one? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." But just lis
45 JGPH1A : That would be like arguing passionately that water is wet. Why bother ? It doesn't change things. The universe simply does not require a Higher Intel
46 AndesSMF : OMFG!!! Many months ago I thought the very same thing, how the progress of Islam and Christianity had followed the same basic path. That is a great,
47 Klaus : Nope. I'd be just as happy basing my view of the world on the assumption of a supernatural being, provided it presented verifiable evidence for its a
48 Klaus : I've never claimed to have proof of god's absence (although several historical incidents are positive proof that there can't be an all-powerful god w
49 Par13del : Klaus in reply 39 hit upon something, as societies or countries have progressed and improved their way of life, religion has lost its importance. In t
50 Post contains links Bezoar : In Christ's own words: "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who m
51 SlamClick : That was not me. See reply #45
52 SlamClick : Look, I'm not arguing for the existence of God here but it seems to me that logically Occam's Razor would dictate that you scrap a nearly infinite nu
53 Tbar220 : Just felt like addressing these points, as I feel they can be answered without resorting to religious insinuations. - The big bang was "lit" by the f
54 Post contains images Klaus : No change at all. See my posts in various previous threads about religion-related issues. The way things look, (at least) the human brain has a capab
55 Comorin : Some points on the 'Is there a God' subthread: Arguments For God and Heaven. 1. Feels good to many, ecstasy to some. 2. It's in man's DNA to believe -
56 Comorin : Oops, back to the original post: Yes, Hinduism does allow for killing when it is part of your duty. The most important chapter in the Bhagavad Gita (H
57 Post contains images JGPH1A : Ahem. It was "fiat lux" Why do you bastards always misquote me ?! Your thunderbolt is in the mail. Signed God
58 SlamClick : No, it was "Fiat Sucks" I know, I owned one!
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