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Louisville: Teacher Burns American Flag  
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7091 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1745 times:

Louisville: A teacher has burned the American flag in his class in order to teach his students about the freedom of speech.
The students all of them were in the seventh grade were supposed to write an essay what feelings the flag burning caused to them.
The teacher is now suspended. Many parents demand his instant dismissal from school-teaching.

Link in German
http://www.spiegel.de/schulspiegel/ausland/0,1518,432878,00.html


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
103 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1735 times:

Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
The teacher is now suspended. Many parents demand his instant dismissal from school-teaching.

Overreaction on the parents part. I think that'd be an interesting essay to write.



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineUsnseallt82 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 4891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1728 times:

Quoting MattRB (Reply 1):
I think that'd be an interesting essay to write.

I think it would be too, in a post-secondary education environment with collegiate maturity, or at least upper high school maturity. Not with 7th graders who aren't used to that type of extremism yet.  redflag 

While some may argue that they need to be shown extreme acts like this, a 7th grade mind isn't quite ready to understand the gravity behind doing something of this nature. I think it was a tasteless act on the teacher's part. He could have easily just asked what feelings do they think they would feel if they witnessed something like this.

I don't agree with the flag burning, but it would make a good philosophical discussion.



Crye me a river
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1725 times:

Quoting MattRB (Reply 1):
Overreaction on the parents part. I think that'd be an interesting essay to write.

Yes, it is an interesting topic, but we've all had to write many an essay on things that would have been seriously inappropriate to demonstrate in class. Doing it for 'instructional purposes' would not have made it okay. If he wanted an essay on kiddie porn would it have been okay to show them some? How about cruelty to animals? Lynching?

I'm pretty sure he violated fire codes in his demonstration.
I've seen teachers suspended for less.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1715 times:

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 2):

While some may argue that they need to be shown extreme acts like this, a 7th grade mind isn't quite ready to understand the gravity behind doing something of this nature. I think it was a tasteless act on the teacher's part. He could have easily just asked what feelings do they think they would feel if they witnessed something like this.

What makes you say that a 7th grader (12-13?) can't comprehend the gravity of what's going on? The very fact that the act caused such an uproar proves that it's something that should be discussed more in schools.


User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1708 times:

It's unbelievable to me how people get their panties in a bunch over a piece of cloth/nylon. IT'S SYMBOLIC PEOPLE!!!! It is NOT the Arc of the Covenant!

The UK is just as patriotic as we are... and you see the Union Jack on toilet paper, clothes, tea towels... just about everything. It hasn't lessened the amount of liberty or freedom in their country. This country's obsession with the gaudy "star spangled banner" borders on idol worship.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1703 times:

This teacher should be canned quick like.

User currently offlineMigfan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1703 times:

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 5):
It's unbelievable to me how people get their panties in a bunch over a piece of cloth/nylon. IT'S SYMBOLIC PEOPLE!!!! It is NOT the Arc of the Covenant!

Could we burn the teacher? He is just a human, there are dozens of them around...

/M


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1703 times:

Freedom of speech is all well and good until someone violates your own principles and beliefs. Then its something that cant be tolerated at all. Apparently.

User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1693 times:

Quoting KROC (Reply 6):
This teacher should be canned quick like.

Why ? He burned a piece of fabric. He didn't bring down the government. Get some perspective.


User currently offlineUsnseallt82 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 4891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1686 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 4):
The very fact that the act caused such an uproar proves that it's something that should be discussed more in schools.

Fine....discuss it until they piss in their pants. But tell me why the hell should a teacher burn a flag in order to prove his point?

7th graders these days can probably comprehend much more than those 20 years ago, but that doesn't negate the fact that a teacher actually burned a flag instead of just talking about burning a flag.

Ironically, the people who bitch and moan about prayer in schools and how the state should be separate will probably be the first ones to run and defend an arm of the state expressing extreme political views.

It was tasteless and unprofessional. The teacher should be terminated.



Crye me a river
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1686 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
I've seen teachers suspended for less.

In this day and age, it was pretty stupid of him to do something like starting a fire in the classroom without (presumably) checking it out with the school's management first.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
If he wanted an essay on kiddie porn would it have been okay to show them some? How about cruelty to animals? Lynching?

Whilst it's OK to consider the flag a symbol for an idea and thus burning it represents being against that idea (though I don't agree with that), it goes a bit far to compare it to kiddie porn, animal cruelty and lynching.


User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1686 times:

Quoting Migfan (Reply 7):
Could we burn the teacher? He is just a human, there are dozens of them around...

Most humans who have a brain understand the difference between liberty, freedom of speech and expression, and a 3x5 foot multi-colored piece of fabric/nylon made in China.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1684 times:

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 10):
Fine....discuss it until they piss in their pants. But tell me why the hell should a teacher burn a flag in order to prove his point?

7th graders these days can probably comprehend much more than those 20 years ago, but that doesn't negate the fact that a teacher actually burned a flag instead of just talking about burning a flag.

Ironically, the people who bitch and moan about prayer in schools and how the state should be separate will probably be the first ones to run and defend an arm of the state expressing extreme political views.

What extreme political view did he express? As I understand it, the lesson was about the power of this particular form of PROTECTED free speech.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineUsnseallt82 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 4891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1676 times:

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 13):
What extreme political view did he express?

His extreme view of free speech.

How many other teachers have burned flags out there? Not very many huh? Yet somehow they were able to express their points on the subject.

Once again, it was unprofessional. I never said it was illegal.



Crye me a river
User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1664 times:

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 10):
But tell me why the hell should a teacher burn a flag in order to prove his point?

Why shouldn't he?

Showing it on TV or having them imagine it allows the students a detached perspective from the act. Doing it right in front of them involves them directly and would be more evocative.

Wonder how long the tightwads latch on to this as a reason to ban flag burning..



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1664 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 11):
it goes a bit far to compare it to kiddie porn, animal cruelty and lynching.

No it doesn't go too far at all.

All I am asking is how do we establish where the line is? I am obviously not saying all of these acts are equal. If starting a fire in a classroom is against local laws (as I'm sure it is) then the teacher is guilty of such a serious breach of common sense that one might make good argument for his dismissal.

I personally don't have a lot of heartburn over occasional marijuana use, and students clearly need to know some things about it, but that does not justify a teaching passing the pipe around. Where do we draw the line? How about with the law - if it is illegal, it is not okay to demonstrate. Seems really simple and straightforward to me.

Notice that I have not said anything about flag-burning - the political act, but about starting a fire. Considering the nature of the assignment, I think we can safely conclude that this was a Civics, Government, or English class and not a chemistry lab where fires might be expected.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1656 times:

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 14):
His extreme view of free speech.

That doesn't make any sense. Free speech is a liberty and a right. In and of itself it isn't "political".



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1648 times:

Usnseallt82... I respect that you're in the military and just hope you're fighting for our liberties and freedoms as codified in the Constitution... NOT for a piece of cloth, as I've heard many in the military espouse. There's a BIG difference.


An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13745 posts, RR: 19
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1637 times:

Oh please.

People abuse democracy all the time nowadays. Tabloids publish whatever the hell they want and can easily afford the libel costs than occasionally ensue. Muslim clerics with hooks abuse freedom of speech. People burn why fabric dyed in some colours.

One may not like it but if you live in a country that allows such freedoms then have your cake and choke on it.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineEatmybologna From France, joined Apr 2005, 412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1637 times:

The act may have been too harsh for the minds of seventh graders. In my humble opinion, the teacher should be given a warning and be required to take a seminar on sensitivity.

Teachers need class when teaching their class!

Regards,

E-M-B



Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1635 times:

Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
The teacher is now suspended. Many parents demand his instant dismissal from school-teaching.

Yes, the teacher did something that violates no law, to speak of, and everyone wants the teacher fired.

Free speech and political expression is a bitch, folks. Deal with it. The teacher perhaps should be suspended for burning anything in a classroom, but dismissed?

Seig heil, baby.

Quoting KROC (Reply 6):
This teacher should be canned quick like.

Why? Because you don't like what he did? Too bad, KROC. The loonies on the right haven't outlawed the practice yet-although you'll hear them wailing how the "flag is under assult and needs protection" before the day is out.

Again, deal with it. It's freedom. It's nice, isn't it, until someone does something you don't agree with?

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 14):
His extreme view of free speech.

Who decides "extreme", my friend? The Congress? The President? You? Me? That's why if you pass this idiotic flag burning amendment, it eventulally will move to something else.


User currently offlineUsnseallt82 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 4891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1635 times:

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 17):
In and of itself it isn't "political".

You've got to be kidding me. It is entirely political when you discuss the dichotomy of views surrounding most of the first 10 Amendments. I'm not questioning whether or not what he did was illegal, I'm questioning his professionalism in his actions.

His extreme view of the freedom of speech directly reflects his understanding of a piece of political history. It is entirely political.



Crye me a river
User currently offlineDrDeke From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 830 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1635 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 8):
Freedom of speech is all well and good until someone violates your own principles and beliefs. Then its something that cant be tolerated at all. Apparently.

Apparently indeed.



Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 8):
Why ? He burned a piece of fabric. He didn't bring down the government. Get some perspective.

 checkmark 



Quoting TWFirst (Reply 12):
Most humans who have a brain understand the difference between liberty, freedom of speech and expression, and a 3x5 foot multi-colored piece of fabric/nylon made in China.

One would like to think so, but...


-DrDeke



If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1621 times:

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 22):
You've got to be kidding me. It is entirely political when you discuss the dichotomy of views surrounding most of the first 10 Amendments. I'm not questioning whether or not what he did was illegal, I'm questioning his professionalism in his actions.

His extreme view of the freedom of speech directly reflects his understanding of a piece of political history. It is entirely political.

Free speech isn't political. Free speech is a liberty/right... you're drawing conclusions from this particular form of free speech as demonstrated by this teacher. You're assuming he was trying to communicate his particular views about this country/government/whatever. THAT'S where YOU'RE politicizing it. The lesson he was trying to teach was about exploring and learning WHY this particular form of free speech generates the extreme feelings that it does in many Americans... and your reaction demonstrates it beautifully.



An unexamined life isn't worth living.
25 Post contains images Usnseallt82 : I agree...there is a BIG difference. And I also agree that many forget what is wrapped up in the symbol of our nation, not the symbol itself. The pro
26 777236ER : The line is clearly the law. While it's pretty daft to start a fire in a classroom, had he had the backing from the school's management and the fire
27 Usnseallt82 : I agree...which is why I have stated several times that it would make for a good political and philosophical discuss, something that I am always up f
28 TWFirst : "Unprofessional", no. Provocative and perhaps unorthodox, yes. IMO, we desperately need more teachers who think outside of the box and can truly reach
29 TedTAce : I would like to read the story in English. The key for me is: did he burn it IN the classroom, or outside were the kids could be kept a safe distance
30 FlyKev : Yes, fabric it may be, however, a flag is a symbol of a national and national pride. Burning the sysmbol of a country shows your hatred to it and you
31 SlamClick : Liberal dusts off the "domino theory" for personal use! Film at eleven.
32 TWFirst : Precisely. And it is a prized right that the people you mention died to defend.
33 Post contains links LTBEWR : Here is the story in English from the website of the daily newspaper of the Louisville,KY area. http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/...cle?AID=/200608
34 NoUFO : Gosh, am I the only "conservative" today (maybe with the exception of Kroc)? If I'm not mistaken, most US American teachers are no public servants, bu
35 DL021 : On the one hand I think it's an interesting way to get feelings going prior to an essay, and it's also an effective demonstration of our freedoms in
36 KROC : Save your tears for the impending Browns debacle this year Falcon. A college professor wants to pull some BS like this - fine. However in a 7th grade
37 RichardPrice : How young is too young? I think this is a fantastic demonstration of the fragility of the so called right to Freedom of Speech and how easily it can
38 Tom in NO : That alone ought to be enough to get him fired.....then there's the child endangerment aspect. Put it this way, if a teacher pulls that crap in front
39 KROC : Friggin' spare me with this "engrained rights have been reduced". Living in America as I do, I have not noticed one damn thing that has changed regar
40 777236ER : So because your education was crap, you expect bright, intelligent 12-13 year olds to sit through boring, unimaginative lessons? Spare us the 'kids j
41 Post contains images Migfan : How do you know it was made in China? His behavior is just plain rude. Not to mention childish, pointless and unprofessional. I have a brain and unde
42 RichardPrice : Im not going to get into a discussion about this, but your rights today are very different to how they were intended to be.
43 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Somebody was wearing their bad-idea jeans! Firing is always appropriate in the face of sheer stupidity.
44 JGPH1A : Flags are not sacred. Why should any symbol be sacred ? A flag is a piece of cloth, and how does burning it harm anyone ? Patriotism is not about how
45 KROC : Shouldn't you be telling AR385 that he is lying about his injuries or pissing in EWS' pool? I hardly received a "crap" education. And yeah, kids to w
46 RichardPrice : If you dont take notice and protest even if it doesnt affect you, it just makes it easier to erode your rights past a point where it does, after all
47 Post contains images TWFirst : YEAH! If he don't like it here in Kintuckee... he can jist go over there to Russia!! Then he'll understand about rights and stuff. Because Americans
48 Falcon84 : Agreed. On that, I agree 100%. I think what would have been more appropriate would have been to clear it with the Principal, and to send a letter out
49 Post contains images KROC : There is the fact that my rights are not eroding. There is always that. You're wacked. You think its appropriate, so it MUSt be okay. I think it is i
50 MaverickM11 : Such as what......? I can't wire money to the Ahmedinejad Madrassa of Fine Arts and Katyusha Rocketry without someone noticing and wondering why? Gon
51 MaverickM11 : Mine too thanks for asking. Well I can't get married but that wasn't really a right to begin with.
52 Falcon84 : I said it's only appropriate under the circumstances I mentioned. It's not appropriate if it's done out of the blue. And I'm certainly not jumping on
53 Migfan : I am not in Kentucky. Have you ever been to Kentucky? he can go t oRussia if he likes, but may be a bit extreme. Canada and Mexico are definite optio
54 Post contains images RichardPrice : Try telling a female colleague she looks beautiful today. Try protesting infront of the president at an organised rally, not just when his motorcade
55 TWFirst : He's in Kentucky, Einstein. And yes, I have been to Kentucky several times, although I don't see the relevance. And, finally, I've been an American l
56 PSA53 : Seems like the teacher wanted to make a political statement to me. What if the teacher had burned a Mexican flag?I can only imagine what response tha
57 Searpqx : I don't think we can jump to the conclusion that this teacher agrees with the concept of flag burning. I've worked directly with plenty of teachers w
58 MattRB : And what political statement was that? He asked his students to write an essay about how the burning of the American flag made them feel and then pro
59 RichardPrice : And thats yet another example of the erosion of the right to free speech. I will point you to my comment in reply 8:
60 PSA53 : The American flag or any other flag is of political representation. Burning is a negative expression.
61 Falcon84 : So is protesting in front of the White House against the policy of a president; or at Capitol Hill to protest Congress. It IS a negative action, usua
62 JGPH1A : A flag is a national representation, not a political one. Sadly this seems to have been forgotten by some of the more absurdly jingoistic elements of
63 Post contains images PSA53 : Both.It depends in what expression.In protests.It's political issues.That's why it's used.
64 Falcon84 : Unfortunately, I think those that live outside the U.S. can't understand, nor appreciate, how powerful a symbol the Stars and Stripes is to many Amer
65 Migfan : Here's another unrelavent observation, you're an ass. I don't speak german, so a link to a German site is not too useful. You being older just means
66 Post contains images JGPH1A : No, you're right, we can't understand it. Millennia of destructive, bloody, vicious and ultimately pointless internecine warfare in Europe have resul
67 Migfan : America has similar symbols as well. Burning the flag has little purpose, and is just disrespectful. That teacher probably watched too many episodes
68 Post contains images TWFirst : DURRRHHHH.... EXACTLY WHAT THE POINT OF THE LESSON WAS!!!!
69 TWFirst : You don't speak English very well either...
70 Falcon84 : You could be right. America has had a different history, and a shorter one, than Europe. I personally don't trust this "one-world" stuff, and a lack
71 Migfan : I speak three languages. Do you?
72 Post contains images TWFirst : There absolutely is patriotism in European countries... just takes a different form than what we're used to. I mean, you don't think the French are s
73 Post contains images Usnseallt82 : Myself included. Exactly. There is a clear difference between trying to open young minds at an early age and brainwashing them at an age where they d
74 JGPH1A : It's not hard to understand, given our past in Europe. But this "one-world" stuff has kept the peace for 60 years (give or take Yugoslavia), so it wo
75 TWFirst : Translation: "richest" in this context means most verbose.
76 Post contains images Falcon84 : Pow, right in the kisser!
77 TWFirst : Have you mastered any?
78 Post contains images JGPH1A : It can be exhausting, but it confuses the natives
79 Post contains images TWFirst : Est-ceci pourquoi le français doit dormir si souvent?
80 Searpqx : I would challenge you to back that statement up. I can trace the foundation for many of my political, religious and social standings to my Jr. High y
81 TWFirst : Agreed!
82 Usnseallt82 : I agree, but what exactly is going to stick? The point the teacher was trying to make or how much attention this act received? If its the latter, the
83 Searpqx : We agree on this, and I also worry about the message that was sent. I will be the first to say that in this day and age, not vetting it with at least
84 777236ER : Why should someone be more reseptive to reasoned argument at 18 as opposed to 12? At 18, kids are more likely to be swayed by peer pressure. They'll
85 DL021 : I think these two statements make the basic point crystal clear. Europeans did not develop their democracies the same way we did, and they have been
86 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Damn right. Seventh grade isn't the place. Public School is the proper venue. Burning the flag is NOT Freedom of Speech, no matter what warped idea o
87 777236ER : What nonsense. If you attacked someone who burnt an American flag in front of you, you'd be charged (rightly) with assault, GBH, attempted murder etc
88 Post contains images Falcon84 : Exactly. If someone is buring it just to burn it-and I don't think this teacher did that-that's just stupid. But if someone is REALLY pissed off with
89 Post contains images Usnseallt82 : Oh wait....one second you say how important the right to free speech is, but yet you don't allow another member, one who actually lives in this count
90 ANCFlyer : Hey, hero - where did I say attack . . . I said "retaliation". Your command of the English language is apparently lacking. I know . . . I won't bring
91 Searpqx : There is a world of difference between someone burning the flag, which despite most people's distaste, has been declared legal, and someone taking it
92 TedTAce : I'd honestly like to know of the people here who would 'have a problem' if I burned "THE flag" would have as much of a problem with me burning a copy
93 Asturias : If the teacher in question burned his own flag and didn't endanger the students.. then I don't see a problem. cheers Asturias
94 MigFan : My two cents (which will be disregarded completely) The bible to me, an Atheist, is a work of fiction. A great story with no supporting information t
95 FlyingTexan : The title of my essay: The day it is illegal to burn the American flag is the day it deserves to be burnt.
96 Usnseallt82 : Yes, there is. But as I read his post over again, I find nothing stating that he would beat the shit out of someone. He is entitled to retaliate just
97 Searpqx : I'm going (from memory) on previous statements Pep has made on the subject. I admit I didn't go back and look them up for this post, so if he never a
98 Post contains images ANCFlyer : I know. I'm okay with it. And Falcon is the same, and DL021 is the same, and FlyingTexan is the same . . . hell, imagine how boring it'd be if we all
99 Post contains images Usnseallt82 : Possibly. He has been holed up in the wilderness for a while, so who knows. Agreed. The only problem I have with this is that I highly doubt the righ
100 L-188 : Oh I don't know, I think there is probably some fire code that was fractured.
101 Post contains images Falcon84 : Thanks, Axel.
102 Columba : I disagree with you here. Since the flag burning will cause a lot of discussion in their families, with their fellow students, with other teachers an
103 VSLover : my god, this is absurd. its a flag representative of IDEALS. hell why are we allowed to burn a facsimile of the constitution? he should have burned a
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