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Positive Examples Of Progressive Countries  
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3231 times:

I often hear liberals and other leftists talk about how great progressivism is. I'm interested in some examples of progressive countries where standards of living are high, the threat of terrorism is low, and the prospects for the future are bright.

Thanks in advance for your considered answers.

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3215 times:

Switzerland for example


Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3202 times:

Finland for another.

User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3197 times:

Do either of those countries exhibit the same kind of future prospects as more conservative countries, though? Demographically, I mean.

User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3184 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 1):
Switzerland for example

Switzerland is NOT that progressive. Very small federal government. Mandatory military service. 100% private health care. It's a conservative country that works pretty well.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3184 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 3):
Do either of those countries exhibit the same kind of future prospects as more conservative countries, though?

You'll have to better explaining what you what. Some conservative countries like Iran would have different future prospects than lets say Singapore.


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3181 times:

Quoting AirCop (Reply 5):
You'll have to better explaining what you what. Some conservative countries like Iran would have different future prospects than lets say Singapore.

What I meant was that liberal countries tend to have demographic issues, as noted in the "Demographically, I mean" sentence right after the one you excerpted.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3177 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
I'm interested in some examples of progressive countries where standards of living are high, the threat of terrorism is low

I'd be interested in a list of what you consider "conservative countries" and what defines them that way. You'd get a better response, as AirCop accurately predicts, rather than just letting everyone define for themselves what "progressive" might be.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3169 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
I'd be interested in a list of what you consider "conservative countries" and what defines them that way.

I think that the U.S. is a conservative country, as is Japan.

Ironically, Japan is not a particularly good example, because it has a severe demographic problem of its own. However, I would consider it conservative due to its emphasis on conformity.

The Netherlands and France are liberal countries when compared to the United States. Both of them, however, seem to be experiencing problems with social peace and there are fears of radicalism that may lead to terrorism. (Van Gogh, in the case of the Netherlands, and social unrest and riots, in the case of France.)


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3165 times:

So if I get this right, your question isn't about "progressive" politics, but "progressive immigration" policies?

As I read somewhere once about the Dutch, they used to view their immigration policy as "we once were there, now they're here".



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3157 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 9):
So if I get this right, your question isn't about "progressive" politics, but "progressive immigration" policies?

Progressive countries tend to have liberal immigration countries, but that's not the only issue.

They also have policies that tend to discourage the formation of a traditional family, which leads to demographic decline.

It has been recently found, for example, that even in the United States, conservative families have significantly more children than liberal ones. (See, e.g., http://www.crosswalk.com/news/1386013.html.)

[Edited 2006-08-25 03:01:00]

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3151 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 10):
They also have policies that tend to discourage the formation of a traditional family, which leads to demographic decline.

"Conservative" states have a higher divorce rate, too. One could say that leads to the breakdown of a traditional family. I doubt you can use the birthrate as an indicator.

How about that list?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3151 times:

Regarding demographic and economic prospects for Switzerland, please see, e.g.:

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news...=aQhxqVQQa9fM&refer=columnist_lynn


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3142 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
"Conservative" states have a higher divorce rate, too. One could say that leads to the breakdown of a traditional family. I doubt you can use the birthrate as an indicator.

Regardless, it is the sheer number of warm bodies that counts, not whether those bodies are married or single at any given time. In fact, if divorced individuals remarry, as they often do, then an entirely new family might be formed that would tend to add to demographic growth.

The problem with Switzerland, for example, is that people, married or not, are having fewer children. They are also growing older, retiring on expensive and decreasingly funded retirement formulas, and becoming a net drain on economic growth. Please see the Bloomberg article I cited.

There may or may not be a causal relationship between progressivism and lack of national fertility, but, nevertheless, the correlation appears to exist.

[Edited 2006-08-25 03:07:01]

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3137 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 13):
There may or may not be a causal relationship between progressivism and lack of national fertility, but, nevertheless, the correlation appears to exist.

Well if we can't have a list, then this will bore me, so I'll pass.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4316 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3115 times:

The US doesn't have a demographic problem because of all the immigration. Without it, it would be in a near similar situation as some european countries, a bit less than Italy and Japan.

That's not such a bad thing, as US birth rates during the 19th century and large part of the 20th were astronomically high, like Brazil and Mexico later on and until recently Peru and Colombia. I've met so many people from other countries in this hemisphere that have 6 or 7 siblings. In Argentina which for whatever reasons has always had very stable and responsible birth rates, that is unheard of (virtually all of Argentina's population growth since the 19th century till today has been immigration, and still is).



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3108 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
Well if we can't have a list, then this will bore me, so I'll pass.

Let me help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underpopulation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-replacement_fertility
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2127rank.html


User currently offlineSpringbok747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3108 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
I'm interested in some examples of progressive countries where standards of living are high, the threat of terrorism is low, and the prospects for the future are bright.

I don't think you can find an ideal country like that. Every place has its own problems, but some are more screwed up than others. So I guess the question you should be asking is: 'Which is the least screwed up place on Earth?'

I'd have to say Sweden, or Finland. New Zealand also seems like a happy place.



אני תומך בישראל
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3105 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
Let me help.

I was looking for a list of "conservative countries" as defined by the OP to provide some counterpoint, since birth rates and marriage stability didn't seem to work as an argument. Alabama vs. Massachusetts, for example, within our own borders.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineSQuared From Canada, joined May 2005, 387 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3094 times:

Quoting Derico (Reply 15):
The US doesn't have a demographic problem because of all the immigration. Without it, it would be in a near similar situation as some european countries, a bit less than Italy and Japan.

Not totally true. The fertility rate in the US is enough to sustain the population. ~2.1 children per woman. Immigration accounts for the growth in the US population. But the fertility in the USA is markedly higher than Italy and Japan, which are only around 1.3 and 1.4 children per woman respectively. The population of these countries will shrink if no immigration is permitted. The US would not be in the same situation as Italy or Japan.

Other so-called progressive nations, also appear to have lower fertility rates. Canada, Germany and France all have lower fertility rates than the US.

SQuared


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3067 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
Let me help.

I was looking for a list of "conservative countries" as defined by the OP to provide some counterpoint, since birth rates and marriage stability didn't seem to work as an argument. Alabama vs. Massachusetts, for example, within our own borders.

It's a subjective measure, and you know that perfectly well. So stop trying to be a nitpicker and try to contribute to the discussion, or stay out of it.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3063 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 20):
It's a subjective measure, and you know that perfectly well.

And as a counterpoint, it's perfectly acceptable to ask the original poster where his center lies.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 20):
So stop trying to be a nitpicker and try to contribute to the discussion, or stay out of it.

Don't like it? Skip over it or suggest delete.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3047 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 21):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 20):
It's a subjective measure, and you know that perfectly well.

And as a counterpoint, it's perfectly acceptable to ask the original poster where his center lies.

I dont think its subjective and it seems pretty clear that the more 'conservative' the area is, the higher the birth rate. I am not certain of my reasoning, but I could assume that the higher marriage rate can also contribute to a higher divorce rate, as those two seem to be related.

Quoting SQuared (Reply 19):
The population of these countries will shrink if no immigration is permitted. The US would not be in the same situation as Italy or Japan.

Japan passed the mark where officially their population is now decreasing, with the attendant economic problems that will occur because of it. There are also areas in the US where you have a decrease of the population, Bay Area comes to mind, where due to the lack of children, schools are having to close.


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3028 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 22):
I dont think its subjective and it seems pretty clear that the more 'conservative' the area is, the higher the birth rate.

Like I said, Switzerland is very conservative and has a low birth rate. Other factors are involved, such as the religion of the people (eg. Catholics tend to have more children than Protestants), or the poverty level.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3026 times:

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
Switzerland is very conservative and has a low birth rate

From my understanding from two family members that live in Switzerland, the Swiss dont seem to encourage marriage. What is your take on that?


25 VHVXB : Don't they have economic problems already?
26 AndesSMF : Yes, and underpopulation cant help them to dig out of the hole they are in.
27 Braybuddy : Therfore, the United States is historically the most liberal country on the planet. The USA.
28 AndesSMF : Incredibly good answer. I think the progressive country shall be defined according to the degree of social welfare benefits provided. How's that defi
29 Post contains images Doona : Like what exactly? I can't say that Swedes are discouraged to start a family, apart from when the christian right and other conservative sycophants o
30 QANTASforever : First, I object to that term. It's the obverse of "rightist", and both come across as derogatory. By all means have a discussion about what countries
31 Sebolino : France has one of the highest birth rate in "Old europe" as far as I know. So France is one of the most "conservative" country ?
32 AndesSMF : France's birth rate is still below replacement level. https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2127rank.html
33 Cfalk : I would think it depends on the area of Switzerland. Geneva is protestant and very liberal, and marriage is not all that popular. Immigration provide
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