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Israel And Palestine: Should One Or Both Exist?  
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2855 times:

Irregardless of what kind of compromises are made, regarding the West Bank, Jeruselem, the Golan Heights here's a simple question for whatever side you fall on:

With regards to Israel and a proposed Palestine: should one or both exist?

As far as I'm concerned, they both should. Israel should because it has been an established and recognized state now for going on 60 years now, and it would be ignoring reality to ask them to suddenly not exist.

And it's obvious to me that the Palestinians deserve and should have a homeland of their own that can live in peace and prosperity next to Israel.

Both can and should exist. It's a matter of indefatigable perseverence that will make it happen.

What say you?

144 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1103 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2851 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
What say you?

I agree. I do think that it WAS wrong to "create" Israel 60 years ago, but whats done is done. You cannot relocate millions of people and stop a state from excisting.
I also see no reason not to grant Palestine FULL INDEPENDENCE of their territories. Israel has no real control over them anyways other than the daily airstrike or two.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2849 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Irregardless

Irregardless?



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2844 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 2):
Irregardless?

That would be 'regarding' then?

Of course both should exist. Israel was created, by the UN, after the worst war in human history. It'll continue to exist for a very long time. Palestine essentially exists already, and it should definately become a formal state.


User currently offlineLO231 From Belgium, joined Sep 2004, 2392 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2841 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):
after the worst war in human history.

I don't think you can call any war "worst in history"....



Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2834 times:

Quoting LO231 (Reply 4):
I don't think you can call any war "worst in history"....

Considering it spanned the globe, saw the use of nuclear weapons, genocide, mass murder, carpet bombing, the use of long range missiles, the development of jet engines, changed the entire belief and political structure of the world...and resulted in 62 million deaths...I think WWII could legitimately be called the 'worst in history'.


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2834 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):
Of course both should exist. Israel was created, by the UN, after the worst war in human history. It'll continue to exist for a very long time. Palestine essentially exists already, and it should definately become a formal state.

 thumbsup 


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2828 times:

What do you suppose the UN will say? After all they long ago ruled that Taiwan doesn't exist. They expelled them in order to entice a nation that hated them to join.


Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1553 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2815 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 3):

Of course both should exist. Israel was created, by the UN, after the worst war in human history. It'll continue to exist for a very long time. Palestine essentially exists already, and it should definately become a formal state.

Agreed.

Right of return in Israel is not feasible, Israel would never allow it. Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and the rest of the Arab world need to follow Jordan's example and allow the Palestinians residents there to integrate into society.



The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2772 times:

Of course I think a Palestinian state should exist. If it meant peace in the Middle East, I'd support giving up pretty much all of East Jerusalem. But I've never been naive enough to believe that the conflict is about land. It has always been and is still about Israel's right to exist as a sovereign Jewish state. There has been ample proof of this over the years (i.e. the numerous occasions in the 20th Century where Israel accepted partition plans but the Arabs rejected) but I think the events of the past year sum it up best.

The European/Arab narrative will tell you that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a conflict that is caused entirely by Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and that if Israel "stops occupying Palestine", there will suddenly be peace in the Middle East. But look at Gaza. Israel made a very tough, country-splitting decision to withdraw from the land they occupied there. Rich American Jews lined up to offer to help the Palestinians build their economy. But what has been the result of the Gaza pullout? Literally thousands of rockets launched into "Israel proper", that is pre-1967 Israel borders capped off by the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier. The infrastructure that American Jews invested in--what was supposed to become the foundation of the Palestinian economy--was destroyed within weeks because of the Jewish connection. Does that appear to ANYONE as a peace-loving people recently freed of occupation?

Most Israelis (and American Jews) have long backed the creation of a Palestinian state. The problem is (and I will get flamed for saying this, but oh well) that you can't force the Palestinians to live peacefully next to Israel. It simply can't be done.

The whole world tries to create a state for them while ignoring that it isn't a state that they desire! This is not only counterproductive; it is dangerous for the entire world. The Palestinians know they can get away with brutal terrorism and still count on the UN for refugee status/payments so I really don't expect things to change much in the near future.

It sickens me to think of the far more legitimate conflicts that exist in the world that nobody talks about. If the amount of attention/aid/concern that is directed towards trying to get the Palestinians to build their own country was directed towards certain other groups, the world would be far better off.

Palestinians will never accept peace with Israel because they will lose their main reason for being--fighting Israel. At the end of the day, it is far more difficult to build a state than it is to be a non-state entity fighting another state.


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2770 times:

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 1):
I also see no reason not to grant Palestine FULL INDEPENDENCE of their territories.

How's Chechnya these days? Hypocrite....

[Edited 2006-08-30 06:01:25]

User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2753 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
If it meant peace in the Middle East, I'd support giving up pretty much all of East Jerusalem.

Oh! How kind of you for such an unbelievably generous offer. Yeah sure
The UN and international law in general implies that no country can annex any land by force or transfer its population to an occupied territory, both of which Israel has no problem doing, and thus in all official UN resolutions, Jerusalem (entire of it) is NOT listed even as 'disputed territory' but 'occupied territory' or is referred to as 'occupied territories including Jerusalem'.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
But look at Gaza. Israel made a very tough,

Well how many times will we have to go over this?? It was NOT disengagement, it was at best an enlargement of a prison still controlled by the Israelis (land border, airspace, ports). Not to mention none of the thousands of prisoners captured in Gaza were released. It was a unilateral move by Israel to draw its own borders and they intend to do the same in the West bank annexing Jerusalem and the most crucial areas of the West Bank that includes all the water resources.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
The problem is (and I will get flamed for saying this, but oh well) that you can't force the Palestinians to live peacefully next to Israel. It simply can't be done.

So you reach this conclusion after getting convinced that overwhelming might is not enough to suppress a people no matter how powerless? Or was this some kind of a joke? And BTW you've been flamed for saying many things before including racist remarks (don't ask me to prove it because they were deleted).

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
Palestinians will never accept peace with Israel because they will lose their main reason for being--fighting Israel.

WHAT!!!
The Palestinians including the Jews were living very happily until the terrorist Zionist organisations started to ethnically cleanse them of their properties and then came along Israel doing it on an even broader scale. So it is Israel that will not have anyone to suppress (its recognised trademark) once this conflict is over, the Palestinians have all the things in the world to gain, in fact they have nothing to loose right now.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
If the amount of attention/aid/concern that is directed towards trying to get the Palestinians to build their own country was directed towards certain other groups, the world would be far better off.

If the aid that goes to the two parties in arms and dollars had been equal, this conflict would have been settled a long time ago.


User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3493 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2746 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
As far as I'm concerned, they both should. Israel should because it has been an established and recognized state now for going on 60 years now, and it would be ignoring reality to ask them to suddenly not exist.

And it's obvious to me that the Palestinians deserve and should have a homeland of their own that can live in peace and prosperity next to Israel.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 

Unfortunately, Israelis seem much more interested in expelling the Palestinians from the occupied territories by any means necessary. All the proposed "two-state solutions" have been a complete joke, and with Israel's continuing influx of immigration based on the right of return, I think it's extremely unlikely that any solution that will appease both sides will be reached unless there's a serious change in attitude on the part of the Israelis.

I recently had the opportunity to hear from a graduate student who just returned from the West Bank, and the picture he painted was rather grim. Unrelenting harassment from the IDF at security checkpoints, water and electricity being shut off at the whim of the Israeli government, and increasing encroachment from Jew-only settlements are making life much more difficult for Palestinians, and while I condemn the violent responses to these difficulties, I can't help but be sympathetic to their plight.

Israelis need to realize that their state will not survive if business continues as usual. A mutually acceptable two-state solution is in the best interests of everyone living in the region, and while pessimistic, I'm hopeful that one can be reached before it's too late.



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3493 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2744 times:

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 8):
Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and the rest of the Arab world need to follow Jordan's example and allow the Palestinians residents there to integrate into society.

From everything I've heard, Palestinians living in Jordan are treated like shit. People make too much of the fact that Palestinians and Jordanians both happen to be Arabs, as Palestinians think of themselves as Palestinians, not Arabs. The student that I mentioned in the post above discussed this very issue with many Palestinians, and he told me that the overwhelming response to the suggestion that Palestinians integrate into Jordanian society was "fuck the Arabs". Personally, I wouldn't be too happy if some foreign invader took my land and expected me to move to Idaho to integrate simply because Washingtonians and Idahoans are both Americans.



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2734 times:

Legally there's no doubt in my mind that Israel is entitled to the land within the 1967 borders and Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon are entitled to the rest.

But there are severe (I'd say insuperable) problems in the economic and political field:-

1. The region as a whole is vastly over-populated. There simply isn't enough water or arable land to go round.There is no peaceable solution to that problem - either Israel holds on to the lion's share by force, as at present, and Palestine goes short; or the other way round.

2. Both states are run on religious, not secular, lines. Israel in particular allows unlimited inward migration for people of the Jewish faith, zilch for most others. Again, 'never the twain shall meet.'

3. That (to my mind absurd) Zionist idea that God promised the whole place to the Jews bedevils the whole field of Israeli politics. Any Israeli prime minister who suggested offering to withdraw to the 1967 borders (especially giving up East Jerusalem) would likely be run out of town on a rail within hours; or lynched.

The tragedy is that, in economic terms, Israel could make good use of the reserves of unskilled labour in Palestine, and Palestine would benefit by having Israel as a source of jobs and also as a market for its agricultural produce.

The logical answer would be to accept that the whole damn place is too small for two sovereign countries anyway; and set up a federated, multi-religious state with all of Jerusalem as an international zone. All broadly as envisaged by the UN in the first place.

And further to impose strict quotas on immigration and policies to restrict population growth from all sources; while also doing a fair deal with Syria, the Lebanon, and Jordan as regards water.

But none of that is ever going to happen.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3493 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2726 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):

The tragedy is that, in economic terms, Israel could make good use of the reserves of unskilled labour in Palestine, and Palestine would benefit by having Israel as a source of jobs and also as a market for its agricultural produce.

Unskilled labor...perhaps because the IDF keeps kids from going to school for months at a time? In any case, it's kind of tough to get to work when Israel wipes out economic infrastructure in the occupied territories and then makes it virtually impossible to work anywhere on the Israeli side of the fence. Never mind the fact that Palestinians should be able to sustain their own economy in their own state, not rely on Israel.



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2717 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
Israel made a very tough, country-splitting decision to withdraw from the land they occupied there

Should be mentioned that Egypt never willingly left the Gaza Strip until the 1967 war.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 11):
was NOT disengagement, it was at best an enlargement of a prison still controlled by the Israelis

Then why was Hamas celebrating their victory over Israel?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-1736361,00.html

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 12):
Unfortunately, Israelis seem much more interested in expelling the Palestinians from the occupied territories by any means necessary

Like they did in Gaza?  sarcastic 

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 12):
I think it's extremely unlikely that any solution that will appease both sides will be reached unless there's a serious change in attitude on the part of the Israelis.

Wouldnt the fact that some Palestinian groups call for the elimination of Israel also require them to have a change in attitude?

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 13):
From everything I've heard, Palestinians living in Jordan are treated like shit.

Remarkable, not a word in any news article about the mistreatment of Palestinians by Arab countries. Personally, I believe that Palestinians and Lebanese have been also used and abused by Muslim/Arab countries.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
1. The region as a whole is vastly over-populated. There simply isn't enough water or arable land to go round.

Hong Kong, Singapore, etc.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 11):
If the aid that goes to the two parties in arms and dollars had been equal, this conflict would have been settled a long time ago.

You have plenty of wealthy Arab countries that can certainly match what the US provides to Israel per year, and they have not done this. But as 1967 and 1973 proved, if both armies had been equal, Israel would still have come out ahead.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2708 times:

the 2-states-solution, with the Arab Republic of Palestine including the Gaza-Territory, the WestBank (most of it, and without "settlements") and EastJerusalem (without the quarter adjoining the WailingWall and maybe some new Israeli suburbs east of the old line) -- and the State of Israel roughly in the 1948-67 borders but with MINOR corrections as above -- is the one to go for. It will be complicated in Jerusalem where EastJerusalem should be under Palestinian sovereignty but a new "Berlin-Wall" should be avoided. AND it will demand a lot of small and difficult compromises and many modern solutions from BOTH sides. There for instance should be a "transit-road" between Gaza and the WestBank without any "open" intersections. The re-opened Gaza-Airport will be legally under Palestinian control, but for obvious reasons operating in close co-operation with TLV-BenGurion. And, as King Abdullah bin Hussein (Jordan) has outlined, while there will be a regular Palestinian army, Israel should have, as a trust-establishing measure, have the right to send inspectors to the armies of its neighbouring countries on a regular basis, with the reverse-right only beginning 5 years later. The "Road to Peace" is indeed a bit of a gravel-road, and not a 6-lanes-motorway.

User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3493 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2708 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):

Like they did in Gaza? sarcastic

Why do you think they continue to cut Gaza off from the rest of the world (food, water, electricity, etc.)?

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
Wouldnt the fact that some Palestinian groups call for the elimination of Israel also require them to have a change in attitude?

Yes.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
Remarkable, not a word in any news article about the mistreatment of Palestinians by Arab countries. Personally, I believe that Palestinians and Lebanese have been also used and abused by Muslim/Arab countries.

Frankly, the corporate (pro-Israeli) media could give a shit about the Palestinians. You don't see them airing footage of Palestinian women dying in labor because their ambulances get held up at IDF checkpoints or Palestinian men in restraints being beaten with rocks by soldiers on the nightly news, but the second an Israeli soldier is killed it's the top story. You can rely on the media all you want, I prefer first-hand testimonials and whatever independent footage I can get my hands on that's managed to get past the Israeli military censors that screen anything leaving the country.



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2701 times:

No, Palestine is just a dream for people who want to erase Israel from the map, I hope though the money spent on wars will be spent on taking land from the sea instead.
My biggest wish is a Kurdistan in current North Iraq and split up of Iraq into 3 countries.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2694 times:

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 18):
Why do you think they continue to cut Gaza off from the rest of the world

IIRC, the Gaza/Egypt border is still open, unless the Egyptians closed up their apartheid wall.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 18):
Frankly, the corporate (pro-Israeli) media could give a shit about the Palestinians

Interesting, you turn a part of how badly Palestinians get treated by Arabs into a how badly Israelis treat the Palestinians...


User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3493 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2689 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 20):
Interesting, you turn a part of how badly Palestinians get treated by Arabs into a how badly Israelis treat the Palestinians...

http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/arabtreatmentofpalestinians.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee

http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%2...bs%20in%20Iraq%20Today,%20IRIN.htm

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/israel/return/arab-rtr.htm

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraqjordan/Iraqjordan0503.htm

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/LTIO-6QWKLB?OpenDocument

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 13):
the overwhelming response to the suggestion that Palestinians integrate into Jordanian society was "fuck the Arabs".



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2682 times:

Only way peace would have a hope is to let both Exist.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2669 times:

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 19):
Palestine is just a dream for people who want to erase Israel from the map

just to have it repeated, my ideas about the 2-states-solution, which do NOT contain any "erasing Israel" at all :
-
********************************
the 2-states-solution, with the Arab Republic of Palestine including the Gaza-Territory, the WestBank (most of it, and without "settlements") and EastJerusalem (without the quarter adjoining the WailingWall and maybe some new Israeli suburbs east of the old line) -- and the State of Israel roughly in the 1948-67 borders but with MINOR corrections as above -- is the one to go for. It will be complicated in Jerusalem where EastJerusalem should be under Palestinian sovereignty but a new "Berlin-Wall" should be avoided. AND it will demand a lot of small and difficult compromises and many modern solutions from BOTH sides. There for instance should be a "transit-road" between Gaza and the WestBank without any "open" intersections. The re-opened Gaza-Airport will be legally under Palestinian control, but for obvious reasons operating in close co-operation with TLV-BenGurion. And, as King Abdullah bin Hussein (Jordan) has outlined, while there will be a regular Palestinian army, Israel should have, as a trust-establishing measure, have the right to send inspectors to the armies of its neighbouring countries on a regular basis, with the reverse-right only beginning 5 years later. The "Road to Peace" is indeed a bit of a gravel-road, and not a 6-lanes-motorway.
--
*********************************************
this btw. is more or less the el-Fatah peaceplan which was worked out in about 1985 in Europe by an elFatah rep. and some non-Palestinian friends. It interestingly was widely adopted by the el-Fatah command, which in those times was surprising
-


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2668 times:

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 19):
My biggest wish is a Kurdistan in current North Iraq

THIS is OFF-topic here, but a word to it nevertheless. Iraqi Kurdistan at present is so autonomous that it would or rather will only be a small step into independence. The problem is that such a step may destabilize neighbouring Turkey where the Kurds also want to join an independent Kurdistan, but where most Turks reject any such development outright.


25 MD11Engineer : The problem is that both many Palaestinians and Zionist types of Israelis are thinking in a rural mindset, where ownership of as much agrarable land
26 QR332 : The partition plans? They had ever right in the world to reject them, you can't bring a bunch of immigrants in then start splitting up the land so th
27 ME AVN FAN : A good example of how to use resources is Lebanon, which beside some agriculture with fruit, vegetables and wines, concentrates on international bank
28 AirxLiban : I reckon they should both exist. Israel simply because it has done. Even for those countries that don't accept that fact, it's still a defacto state a
29 Post contains images Halls120 : Until you get to the last paragraph, I agree completely. Given the current state of human development, with our inability to separate religion from p
30 QR332 : Actually, it probably would work, but Israel would never accept it because there would be no more state especially for Jews.
31 Falcon84 : QR, are you going to address the basic premise of this thread, or just continue your anti-Israeli rants?
32 Cedars747 : From a religious point of view ,an Israeli state is not possible and one of the reasons is that the Torah forbids Jews to end the exile and establish
33 RJpieces : Well I guess that's your answer to Falcon's questions. As long as Arabs are not willing to accept a basic partition (then or now), there will never b
34 ME AVN FAN : Most Arabs are favouring the 2-states-solution. In Palestine, negotiations have started to establish a Hamas-elFatah coalition government which might
35 AGM100 : This is a question that is ground zero of the entire ME situation. In Western thinking we have or at least I do , the idea that they should just get a
36 ME AVN FAN : it in fact already is existing and practiced. Exactly what we have now in Palestine/Israel, this PA-government, is something the Israelis in the 70ie
37 AA777 : Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. Jews and Arabs lived peacefully side by side until 1948....thats when the major aggression started and when they were fo
38 LY744 : Let's see, maybe because every time the border opens the Hamas & Co gets more and more weapons in? As for those of you dreaming of an Arab controlled
39 Halls120 : Sorry, but in this instance, I think there is enough blame to go around for all. Radical Islamists would reject a secular state just as fast as the I
40 Post contains links AndesSMF : Not quite correct. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Arab_Uprising
41 AGM100 : Coexistence ? existing while hands on each others thoats most of the time... Again , until the Muslim world as a whole accepts the state of Israel an
42 N1120A : One country, named Palestine or anything other than Israel (the country should not have a name based in religion) organized federally, with a real con
43 CX747 : I think that Israel should exist and all of the neighboring Arab countries that hate it should donate land to form a Palestinian state.
44 Falcon84 : Yes, it must be so nice to be so removed from reality! As far as I'm concerned, the only way there's no Israel is if it's destroyed, with millions of
45 N1120A : That is your sick fantasy, not mine. My family has already had enough of the Holocaust, we want nothing to do with the one you seem to advocate Hey,
46 Falcon84 : Excuse me? How is it my sick fantasy, since I'm a supporter of Israel, dude? It's not my sick fantasy, but one of those who apologize for and excuse
47 N1120A : My suggestion was that there be one state, with a non-religious name. Israel is a religious name. If they named the country the United Mohammadian Re
48 RJpieces : Why are you singling out Israel for being a religious state? Where is your criticism of...Oh let's start with the Islamic Republican of Iran and then
49 Post contains images QR332 : Every one knows my answer, of course I want a Palestinian state established! I have said it time and time again that there should be a state establis
50 Falcon84 : So what. That's what they decided to call the country, and who are you to tell them they can't? Just because you perphaps loath religion doesn't mean
51 AndesSMF : He meant exactly what he meant, all I was doing was pointing out that these problems had existed prior to 1948. I disagree about the Wikipedia articl
52 RJpieces : Not all of them. People like Ariel Sharon were born on the land, raised on the land, and worshipped the land forever. Well like I always say, no wond
53 Cairo : Yes, in a perfect world I'd like to see both a home state for the Palestinians and a home state for the Israelis. As to what the borders should be or
54 AA777 : Yes, they have had 70 years to ACCEPT whatever was offered BACK to them, which was frankly wrongfully taken in the first place. Forgive them for actu
55 Falcon84 : As opposed to watching another 60 years of senseless killings? You figure that out, my friend.
56 N1120A : My issue with religion-based states extends to Iran, Afghanistan, the Vatican and any others that may exist Who am I? Who was Balfour to tell anyone
57 AndesSMF : Unfortunately, there have been many examples of countries taking land that rightfully belonged to others and making it theirs. As example, there was
58 Post contains images QR332 : I just said a Palestinian state inside all of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. Considering Israel is in neither of these territories, I
59 Halls120 : While I'd like to believe that extremists wouldn't have a hold on an independent Palestine, that is a dream. Not reality. The continued presence of H
60 Gunsontheroof : Keep in mind that Hezbollah is part of the elected government, and they do a lot more for Lebanese people than you'll ever hear about in the American
61 Halls120 : Regardless, they are an armed militia that engages in terrorist acts outside the borders of Lebanon.
62 Tbar220 : You bring up an interesting point here. Would you have accepted the plan that Ehud Barak presented Arafat in 2000? Even Jordan's leader Hussein (sp?)
63 Gunsontheroof : It's just as easy to justify the statement that Israel is an armed nation that engages in terrorist acts inside the borders of Lebanon. Cutting innoc
64 AndesSMF : OK, lets return to this issue of 'proportionality'. Is it proportional for Hezbollah to ask for hundreds of prisioners in return for TWO soldiers? Or
65 CO7e7 : Well, that's a simple answer to a complicated question: Both should exist. HOW? well, that's what we've been trying to figure out for the last 50somet
66 Gunsontheroof : A) Demanding hundreds of prisoners for two captured soldiers. B) Killing 1,000+ civilians and decimating a country's infrastructure for two captured
67 N1120A : That about says it.
68 Post contains links AndesSMF : Kidnapping two Israeli soldiers and assuming nothing will happen to you. http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1200
69 Gunsontheroof : I don't think anybody, Hezbollah or otherwise, expected Israel to respond by destroying Lebanon's civilian infrastructure and killing civilians. It's
70 NAV20 : On the face of it, given that Israel currently has thirty-or-so members of the elected Palestinian parliament in jail at the moment, and that the Isra
71 AndesSMF : Expectations are one thing, reactions are another. Remember that Hez not only kidnapped the soldiers, but also bombed military and civilian targets a
72 Post contains images Gunsontheroof : From what I hear, the ones who aren't in jail spent each night in a different house in hopes of avoiding arrest by the IDF. As far as I know, none of
73 Gunsontheroof : Soldiers don't get kidnapped, they get captured. The fact that Hezbollah fighters executed this operation "out of uniform" is irrelevant. Israeli sol
74 AndesSMF : Argue the part that you can. I guess you cant argue the part where it mentions a Hez attack against military targets at the same time of the 'capture
75 Halls120 : Sure it is, but your comment is out of context in relation to the discussion at hand. We're talking about the power of radical islamists within the m
76 ME AVN FAN : As you say it was Hezbollah which was sending rockets, but Israel, and that was NOT expected, did at first for three days NOT attack Hezbollah, but B
77 AndesSMF : I cannot comment completely on that since I dont know exactly what Israel was targetting. But regardless of Israel's actions, Hezbollah is still acco
78 AA777 : Oh please, that kind of statement completely absolves Israel of ANY responsibility here. By that logic, Israel could have nuked Beirut and killed all
79 AGM100 : International LAW ? Hezbollah is a terrorist organization adherent to no government , treaties or international law. The biggest travesty from the la
80 ME AVN FAN : what IS exactly known is what was hit by that terror-campaign and that were airport, seaports, roads and bridges, schools, factories, power-stations,
81 AA777 : You're whole premise is that since Hezbollah is not a state...Israel can fight however it wants to... and it doesnt matter. The rules dont matter, eh
82 Halls120 : That isn't what Andes said. What he said was entirely correct. Even if Israel's response to a Hezbollah provocation is entirely disproportionate, tha
83 AndesSMF : I never said this was OK for a reason, all I am saying is that the Palestinians are not the only one who have suffered this way. Allowing the right o
84 ME AVN FAN : into South Lebanon including Tyrus maybe. But clearly NOT "so ingrained" into Sa'ida, Beirut, Byblos and Tripoli. No, that justification attempt for
85 AA777 : Whats your point? You wont ever admit that Israels offensive was overly harsh, damaging, destructive, and in the end, useless to either country. Why
86 Halls120 : My point is very simple. You simply either don't understand what we are discussing, or are choosing to ignore it. Here is my initial comment: "Sorry,
87 AGM100 : Exactly opposite of my point. In the case of a non state controlled militia attacking a sovereign nation , the sovereign nation has no defence. Its a
88 Gunsontheroof : I'm not avoiding the issue. What I was getting at is the fact that Israel is just as much of a threat to peace in the region as Islamic radicals are;
89 Halls120 : You still don't get it. In the "sidebar" discussion I have referred to, the issue was whether Islamic extremists would let a secular state exist. Not
90 Gunsontheroof : You don't need to be so condescending, I understand perfectly well what's being discussed. As far as terminology goes, I don't make much of a distinc
91 Halls120 : Apparently not, as evidenced by the following comment. Again, in our hypothetical, there is no "state of Israel." You should quit while you are behin
92 Post contains images Gunsontheroof : I don't see where anything I've said in this thread referenced anything you said about a hypothetical secular state. Perhaps you've misunderstood.
93 Post contains images Halls120 : that's the point! we were discussing the chance of a secular state existing in place of the existing religious state of Israel, and you kept harping
94 Gunsontheroof : This discussion has touched on many different topics, not just one like you're suggesting. If I'm not mistaken, the thread title asks about a number
95 AirxLiban : Sorry for not responding to this earlier, I was effectively at work for 30 of the last 48 hours. I should have been more clear with what I said. Gett
96 ME AVN FAN : - The peace-plan of Ehud Barak was totally unacceptable. What King Hussein bin Talal however condemned was the "Hissy-fit"-reaction of Arafat, who lo
97 ME AVN FAN : - this leads to interesting thoughts about the Israeli government and military leadership. Are they "Zionist extremists" ? I would say NO. I recently
98 Halls120 : Actually, I wasn't trying to make anyone look foolish. In my experience, people who look like fools usually bring that upon themselves by their own w
99 RJpieces : Perhaps, but have the Arab world's problems not been exposed already? I still feel that as long as those serious Arab-Western and Arab internal probl
100 ME AVN FAN : ALL peace-deal proposals usually contain components not acceptable to one of the adversaries. THAT is what negotiations are for, to iron out the deta
101 AGM100 : AVN FAN , I would love if you were correct about this. I hope I am being pesimistic I really do , but "fairly minor" seems like the understatemnt of
102 ME AVN FAN : in short, radical Islamic schools are NOT allowed in Syria and do NOT exist. Madrasa btw. in Arabic simply means school. But just as in Catholicism,
103 AGM100 : The article highlighted that fact , but women's movement was in defiance of the government. The Syrian government must be concerned about the Islamis
104 ME AVN FAN : the extremists are dangerous, and when committing "mischief" DO damage the interests of the majority. For instance, people of Pakistani origin intent
105 Post contains links Cairo : Did you know that America is only the lesser partner in the definition of Western World (which we will define as Europe and all those countries of Eu
106 Halls120 : Wow. Only 105 posts before the "the jews control the media" canard pops up.
107 AGM100 : I am afraid of what the future holds for the aformentioned "western world" . Most of Europe just ignores the situation and is hoping that is will all
108 MIAMIx707 : I'm not picking on you QR, but with your attitude you're not making yourself any more likable, credible, or helping your cause.
109 QR332 : My attitude with RJ is like that for a reason, he attacks my lifestyle (which he knows nothing about) quite frequently and his political views are co
110 AirxLiban : They've certainly been exposed, but to what avail? As long as this fig leaf exists, the nature of the negotiations and the ensuing conflict isn't goi
111 Gunsontheroof : Larry King is an atheist, so I don't think he provides much support for your argument.
112 ME AVN FAN : Most of Europe does NOT ignore anything. European institutions and police-forces for decades have cared about the situation in question, mostly with
113 ME AVN FAN : can you specify in what way Europe should "catch up" to the USA ? in doing less for the environment ? in having worse relations with the rest of the
114 Post contains links Halls120 : How is Europe "more free" than the US? One could easliy argue that even a minor infringement of political freedom is a major impediment to the citize
115 MartinairYYZ : I'd say if only Palestine existed, the world would be much more peaceful.
116 Tu204 : How bout you atleast learn about what you are stating? The Chechens do not want independence. The Palestinians do. Remember, when you ASSume, you mak
117 ME AVN FAN : - might be a new thread. Do you have actual proof that the Chechens do NOT want independence, or do you by this simply follow general public opinion
118 Tu204 : I have very good friends that are Chechen and I have high respect for the Chechen people. The general in the republic is for them to have autonomy (a
119 AGM100 : That should be a new thread AVN FAN. Sorry Back to the topic , In the US we (some of us anyway) perceive the Muslim's as basically intolerant of othe
120 ME AVN FAN : an "accepting type of Islam" IS taught, THAT is why Muslims and Christians can and DO live together in countries like Egypt, Lebanon and Syria. True,
121 AirxLiban : What the hell is that supposed to mean? How do you even gauge that?
122 RJpieces : All I can say is "Surely you jest?". Then why have they turned down proposal after proposal for a state for them? I think this was a truly debatable
123 Cairo : 1. In Europe there is no such thing as a cop stoping you and demanding an Identifcation document. It doesn't exist in Europe. In America, you are sub
124 ME AVN FAN : they accepted the Oslo Accords, they accepted the Taba agreement, they have made numerous proposals about it. They have it in their charter, their le
125 Rolfen : Of course they should both exist.
126 Halls120 : Please provide a citation to any state or federal law that requires a person to carry an ID at all times. As far as the "order of magnitude" comment,
127 ME AVN FAN : to rectify two of my previous statements right here, political and personal freedom in most of Europe (except Belarus) and in the USA are similar. It
128 QR332 : Very ironic considering how many westerners live in the Arab world... And isn't part of having faith and believing something actually believing that
129 Semsem : An Arab Israeli peace will not reduce terrorism. That's just an excuse used by some in Europe and in the Islamic countries. Al Quaida will continue it
130 RJpieces : Oh really? Please list me those thriving Jewish communities in the Middle East outside of Israel of course.
131 Tu204 : I know the situation FAR better than you.
132 Post contains links Raffik : I haven't managed to get all of the Arab countries, but here are a few ... 1,500 Jews in Iran 300 Jews in Algeria 2,000 Jews in Tunisia 30 Jews in Ba
133 Post contains images RJpieces : What a great response! Wow, if that's not evidence of a thriving minority community I don't know what is....
134 ME AVN FAN : such a peace will improve political economic psychological matters and reduce political tensions in the area. and thereby will reduce the recruting p
135 Post contains links AndesSMF : As a very late response, those are not thriving communities as compared to 1948. As an example, the 'thriving' community of Jews in Morocco was 250,0
136 ME AVN FAN : the "difference" migrated to Israel, but still have the right to visit Morocco for holidays. While those in Morocco have the right to visit Israel.
137 QR332 : Iran, for one - most Jews emigrated to Israel in the late 1940s/early 1950s either because they wanted to live in the Jewish state or because they we
138 Post contains links Dtwclipper : I really would not classify the 1,500 Jews living in the Islamic republic to be a thriving community. .....The Jews suffer from official inferior sta
139 ME AVN FAN : in MOST "areas". You mention Saudi Arabia. OK, show me a single mosque in the Vatican-state. no, not really. Unfortunately, none of the religious and
140 NAV20 : What has 'terrorism' got to do with the topic, Semsem? Peace between Israel and its neighbours would reduce the incessant deaths, maimings, injustice
141 Lewis : There is nobody in my government telling me that I am not allowed to travel and subsequently spend my money in certain countries (ie. Cuba). Not enti
142 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : not so here. And I am happy with that, because when I show my ID-card or passport, they usually become busy for 10 minutes to check up that it is NOT
143 Lewis : Ha! Sounds like my experience with my Greek passport in RTM.
144 AndesSMF : Show me the size of the Vatican as compared to Saudi Arabia. Tell me if there is mosques around Rome.
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