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LSU "Tailgate Party" To Discuss Rebel Flag  
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1845 times:

A student at LSU is going to try an innovative way to get students to talk about the use of the Rebel flag being flown with LSU colors at Tiger football games.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2569286

I personally thing this is a great idea. A good way to get students together, over hot dogs and drinks, and DISCUSS the issue. What a novel idea, to actually discuss such an issue, instead of yelling at each other.

I hope it works.

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7387 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1837 times:
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Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
A student at LSU is going to try an innovative way to get students to talk about the use of the Rebel flag being flown with LSU colors at Tiger football games.

Well, it's a flag, it's part of American history. The civil rights community looks upon the rebel flag the same way the world looks at the swastika. THEY associate the flag as a symbol of hate, which it isn't. I wouldn't fly the flag in my yard, but I don't demonise it like some do.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
instead of yelling at each other.

Well, that's awfully hard for some, but cooler heads should prevail. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I hope it works.

Yikes



Made from jets!
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7011 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1835 times:

Call me crazy, but why isn't it a symbol of hate?


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User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1834 times:

Also, it should be noted that most people probably would not be able to pick a real Confederate flag out of a lineup of flags. What most people call the Confederate flag is technically the modified Confederate Battle Ensign. It is modified in that it has a rectangular shape rather than the correct square shape with the St. Andrew's Cross. The actual Confederate Flag is either the First, Second or Third National Flag. The First National Flag aka the Stars and Bars has 13 stars in the blue field in the upper left corner and three horizontal stripes-red, white and red. The Second National Flag has the Battle Engsign in the place of the blue field and the rest of the flag is white. The Third National Flag is the same as the Second National but with a vertical red stripe on the right side. Some may also consider the "Bonnie Blue Flag" to be the First National Flag of the Confederacy though it was never adopted as such. The Bonnie Blue Flag had a white star centered on the blue flag which could be either square, a pennant or a swallow-tail pennant.


"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7387 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1813 times:
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Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 2):
Call me crazy, but why isn't it a symbol of hate?

Exacty, why? Because it's commonly referred to as the symbol of the Confederacy, but it was just the flag of the Confederate Army. I think it's a symbol of American History and whether liked or disliked, it should remembered as an important symbol of this countries past just like the freeing of the slaves.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1813 times:

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 2):
Call me crazy, but why isn't it a symbol of hate?

Because it was a battle flag for what was hoped to be a country...and slavery wasn't the only issue at play...

HOWEVER...

How come this flag isn't considered treasonous? I mean to fly the flag of a nation that was essentially the US's enemy...southern heritage or not...they wrote the check, Lincoln cashed it. Deal with it.

Time to be patriotic...adopt an American flag and lose the stars n' bars. It's no different than taking down a US flag and putting up a Mexican flag at a Post Office IMO.

It may be kitch...but it's a relic that has no relavance. The US flag is better suited to covering the heritage of the whole nation...including the South.

Again, just my two cents in the matter. I could care less, and I'm not advocating sending half of Mississippi to Gitmo over it...

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineFlyVirgin744 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1313 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1813 times:

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 2):
Call me crazy, but why isn't it a symbol of hate?

The Civil War was fought over state's rights, not slavery. Slavery was one of many issues the south felt the federal gov't shouldn't be involved in (ie a state's rights issue). Even if the confederacy had won the war and was a seperate country now I doubt it would still have slavery.

Therefore most consider it a symbol of southern pride. The south is still quite different from the north and southerners like to show their heritage, the symbol they have to do that...the confederate flag.



Sometimes I go about in pity for myself and all the while a great wind carries me across the sky.
User currently offlineFlyVirgin744 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1313 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1810 times:

I also want to add many public schools in the south are named after famous confederates. My cousin went to Jefferson Davis Middle.


Sometimes I go about in pity for myself and all the while a great wind carries me across the sky.
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1799 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
The civil rights community looks upon the rebel flag the same way the world looks at the swastika. THEY associate the flag as a symbol of hate, which it isn't.

Actually, it represented a system where one race was made to serve the other, for the benefit of the other race. That is, in essence, a form of hatred, JetJack. It's connotation was clear-the South wanted to keep slavery.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 4):
Exacty, why?

Again, because it symbolized the South's desire to keep bondage as national policy. That's why.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 5):
Because it was a battle flag for what was hoped to be a country...and slavery wasn't the only issue at play...

It was the over-riding issue. That's something that modern-day Southern revisionists don't want to admit. The war, in the end, was fought over the institution of slavery. It may not have started that way, but, in the end, that's what it was fought over. Not taxes; not giving more power to the individual state, but over slavery, and whether it would be continued on this part of the Continent.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 5):
How come this flag isn't considered treasonous?

As far as I'm concerned, it isn't quite treasonous today. To me, it was back in the time of war.

Quoting FlyVirgin744 (Reply 6):
The Civil War was fought over state's rights, not slavery.

Wrong. It was fought over a number of states wanting to keep slavery. Other issues were minor sidebars, that paled in comparrison to the white South keeping blacks as beasts of burden.

Again, I hope, despite JetJack's derision, that it works. It'd be better for those who are for the flag, and oppose it, to sit down, and discuss it, as we do here, and find common ground. It DOES symbolize, to many Americans, not just black Americans, a shameful past, and a "nation" that wanted to further the institution of bondage. It DOES symbolize to some Southerners, a sense of regional pride. It should NOT be used, I think, as a symbol for any modern school in the South.


User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3076 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1781 times:

Quoting FlyVirgin744 (Reply 6):
Even if the confederacy had won the war and was a seperate country now I doubt it would still have slavery.

Nope but they would have had it a hell of a lot longer than 1865...So that must make it alright for you...

GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1780 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
instead of yelling at each other.

Sadly it always degrades into ylling from both sides.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 5):
and slavery wasn't the only issue at play...

Someone wasn't sleeping in History class.  Wink

Quoting FlyVirgin744 (Reply 6):
The Civil War was fought over state's rights, not slavery. Slavery was one of many issues the south felt the federal gov't shouldn't be involved in (ie a state's rights issue).

Make that two people awake.  Wink

Quoting FlyVirgin744 (Reply 6):
Even if the confederacy had won the war and was a seperate country now I doubt it would still have slavery.

I'm a died in the wool Southerner and I will fully admit the North could have fought the war with one arm tied behind their back and they still would have won.

Here's my thing on the flag. I don't have a problem with it personally. What I do have a problem with is how the state of Georgia (my home state now) put the Confederate battle flag on their flag as a big "fuck you" to the Feds back in the mid-50s. I have always supported changing the flag to what it is today.

As to the NAACP and other groups complaining about the Georgia or Mississippi flags then please feel free to harass the other states of the Confederacy whose flags today still hold symbols of that time otherwise your complaints will be met by my deaf ears.

Another note to folks in the NAACP that had the Confederate flag brought down from the SC State House and placed in a Confederate soldier memorial on the lawn of the Capitol...don't start complaining the following year that you don't like the compromise you agreed to and now you want it completely gone. You lost all credibility with me after that one.

I can understand the resentment and feelings that some folks have towards the flag. I can also understand the history of the flag and what it means, right or wrong, to folks. Getting rid of the flag is rewriting history and that smacks a fair amount like 1984.

Just my two cents. I could be wrong.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineMaury From United States of America, joined May 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1775 times:

Pardon my pun, but: it's nice to see the true colors coming out in some of our folk on here, eh? By Jetjack's "logic," we should be cool with Germans flying the swastika flag...just a part of history after all! And it's not like wiping out the Jews was the *only* reason they went to war, right Jetjack?

Utterly amazing.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 10):
Someone wasn't sleeping in History class.

And someone was--the fella who forgot to look up just who that bridge over the St. Johns River was actually named after. Msut've been napping through that part of History 101. eh DeltaGator? Speaking of low credibility and all.


User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1770 times:

Quoting Maury (Reply 11):
And someone was--the fella who forgot to look up just who that bridge over the St. Johns River was actually named after. Msut've been napping through that part of History 101. eh DeltaGator? Speaking of low credibility and all.

Must...not...feed...the...troll. Let it go Maury, I screwed that one up good but I've moved on.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineN200WN From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 784 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1761 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Quoting FlyVirgin744 (Reply 6):
The Civil War was fought over state's rights, not slavery.

Wrong. It was fought over a number of states wanting to keep slavery. Other issues were minor sidebars, that paled in comparrison to the white South keeping blacks as beasts of burden.

Actually, the only reason the Civil War was fought by the north was to preserve the Union.


User currently offlineDTManiac From Germany, joined Aug 2004, 689 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1759 times:

Quoting Maury (Reply 11):
And it's not like wiping out the Jews was the *only* reason they went to war, right Jetjack?

Actually it wasnt the reason to go to war. But since this war and the killing of the jews are closely connected through the nazi regime I would find it very inappropriate to fly a swastika flag.



Gig 'em Aggies!!!
User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1751 times:

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 10):
I can understand the resentment and feelings that some folks have towards the flag. I can also understand the history of the flag and what it means, right or wrong, to folks. Getting rid of the flag is rewriting history and that smacks a fair amount like 1984.

Precisely. The reason that most people who object to the Confederate Battle Ensign do so has nothing to do with the flag itself. Rather it has to do with the adoption of the flag by numerous white supermacist groups as their symbol-specifically the second incarnation of the Ku Klux Klan. Remember that they were in power socially and politically from the 1920s on and were heavily involved with the Dixiecrats (southern Democrats for you non-US folk). For the Dixiecrats, the way to insure they remained in power was to keep the blacks "in their place."

I certainly agree that a postwar Confederate States of America would probably have abolished slavery at some point. They were aware that foreign powers that they wanted to enter the war were hesitant to do so specifically because of the slavery matter. To be fair, it should be remembered that the United States of America wasn't that friendly to the former slaves either. There was a great deal of racism north of the Mason-Dixon line and many northerners certainly did not look at blacks as their equals. In fact, organized labor didn't want the blacks to move north and compete for work, thus depressing wages. Lincoln didn't push abolition in the United States as allowing slavery was key to keeping important border states-specifically Maryland-from seceding. Lincoln was also the proponant of the purchase of slaves and the establishment of a free country for them in Liberia. Thus while most of the abolitionists were northerners, they certainly are not a representative of the entire group.

As for rewriting history, it can't be done. Reinterpreted perhaps but not rewritten.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
It DOES symbolize, to many Americans, not just black Americans, a shameful past, and a "nation" that wanted to further the institution of bondage.

True. The Ku Klux Klan is an example of a rare situation where broadening one's viewpoint is bad. They went from hating only blacks, abolitionists and Republicans to hating blacks, abolitionists, Republicans, Catholics and Jews (to name the most hated groups).



"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 1739 times:

Sometimes an old flag can make a political statement that the original designers of the flag never intended for it to make. Flying a confederate flag in the US is a bit like flying an old Transvaal or South African flag in SA. Neither flag in it's design makes any particular statement on race, although the old SA flag is replete with colonial symbolism, but neither was DESIGNED with racist overtones in mind; unfortunately their political associations in the past give them that connotation now. Same with the confederate flag, I guess - flying it these days shows to say the least a lack of sensitivity.

User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1733 times:

Quoting N200WN (Reply 13):
Actually, the only reason the Civil War was fought by the north was to preserve the Union.

To begin with, that is true. But after President Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclaimation, it changed the whole outlook on the war. Yes, it was to preserve the Union, but the North made it clear that in order to preserve the Union, slavery had to be destroyed once and for all. Up until that point, many in the North were willing to still reach a compromise on slavery, if the Confederacy only abandoned its plan for a separate state. That ended with the Proclaimation. It then became a fight over whether slavery would continue to exist in the South.


User currently offlineAA61Hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1720 times:

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 15):
Precisely. The reason that most people who object to the Confederate Battle Ensign do so has nothing to do with the flag itself. Rather it has to do with the adoption of the flag by numerous white supermacist groups as their symbol-specifically the second incarnation of the Ku Klux Klan. Remember that they were in power socially and politically from the 1920s on and were heavily involved with the Dixiecrats (southern Democrats for you non-US folk). For the Dixiecrats, the way to insure they remained in power was to keep the blacks "in their place."

That is exactly why I cannot stand the flag. Unfortunately people seem to take pride in it here in Texas....I always say to them "The war is over." They don't care for that much...



Go big or go home
User currently offlineMaury From United States of America, joined May 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1719 times:

The racist aspects of the Confederacy don't seem to bother some of it's fans, as listed above.

Anyone who can gloss over the racist aspects of our Civil War is -- well, glossing over racism. To do so in the name of misguided "geo-locus pride"...is really weak.

Think of all of the positive symbols that say "American South"...but the one they not only rally 'round but pick fights over is the symbol that says "hey, we once left the US and fought hard to preserve a 'way of life' based around white supremacy!" Rather telling...but not clever regional-marketing. It probably says more about the people who defend the symbol than about the region in general...one hopes.


User currently offlineBHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1704 times:

As a flag it was part of your nations history for better or worse. It's been hijacked and re-hijacked by many groups and causes over the years. However, there is no need to get hyper sensitive about it. I probably knew that flag before I knew what the US flag looked like - because I was 8 yrs old watching the Dukes of Hazzard!! Ask most (non - US) people my age about General Lee, and we'll say it was the car Bo and Luke Duke drove.


Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12880 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1696 times:

What we generally refer to as the 'Confederate' flag was brought back in the mid-1950's and in popular use by white Southerners as a reaction to the Federal government's anti-discrimation actions, including ending legal segeration of blacks from whites. In some states, they made the 'stars and bars' to be part of the state flags of several former CSA states. Some states still have elements of it in their flags today, including Florida and Arkansas. Many White Southerners wanted to keep blacks 'in their place' and massively discrimate against them for their (whites) own social and economic benefit. So they used the flag as a symbol of their agenda and it still is seen as that today by many.

User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8494 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1679 times:

Why would LSU want anything to do with one of Ole Miss' symbols? Then again, both schools share the corn dog fixation, so who knows.

As for the rest of this, I'd like to respond, but I feel there's too much public school indoctrinated ignorance to have a genuine discussion.

[Edited 2006-09-02 22:38:25]

User currently offlineFlyVirgin744 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1313 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1674 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Wrong. It was fought over a number of states wanting to keep slavery.

Many historians would disagree with you. But we are having a "discussion" so there will be disagreements  Wink Don't forget, there were those in the non-slave states who were still for slavery back then, its not as black and white as we all might think. Even the political parties from the birth of the nation were driven on whether you were a federalist or an anti-federalist.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 9):
Nope but they would have had it a hell of a lot longer than 1865...So that must make it alright for you...

How you got that from my post I have no idea. I was conveying slavery was not the only issue of the war and in no way does that make it a right thing!! I was just saying that I felt maybe they would have come around eventually, but looking at how the civil rights movement was just in the 1960s, I may very well be wrong. Sorry didn't mean to offend and I definitely do not feel that way.



Sometimes I go about in pity for myself and all the while a great wind carries me across the sky.
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7387 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1673 times:
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Quoting Maury (Reply 11):
By Jetjack's "logic," we should be cool with Germans flying the swastika flag...just a part of history after all! And it's not like wiping out the Jews was the *only* reason they went to war, right Jetjack?

Not even close, Sherlock. What I mean't was, the campaign to demonise the rebel flag, by likening it to the flag of the 3rd reich is what is silly. The rebel flag was a symbol of few band of goons who wanted to be a soveregn nation exempt from the laws of the unionist north. The Nazi flag was resurrected by a tyrant who had dreams of building a racially purest state. Maury, you're very good at hitting below the waist becuase you were probably beat up alot as kid, but don't try and spin my words to support your neurotic narcistic views. Oh and by the way, the swastika was a symbol stolen from an American Indian tribe, only reversed. So Maury, have any more teen paternity tests on the show this week?

Quoting Maury (Reply 19):
The racist aspects of the Confederacy don't seem to bother some of it's fans, as listed above

No, it's what you percieve to be a flag built on racism, and nothing else.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Actually, it represented a system where one race was made to serve the other, for the benefit of the other race. That is, in essence, a form of hatred, JetJack. It's connotation was clear-the South wanted to keep slavery.

But that's not what the flag was founded on. The opposition to the rebel flag issue is becuase a few of the ring leaders decided they didn't like based on the opinions of old mom and pop who's great, great, great grandparents decended from slaves, and I might add most likely never, ever having really researched the real history behind, but going by what was passed down through family folklore. I don't know very much about it either, but I do know that it there is no proof that a bunch of white, black hating southerners were sitting around a dinner table designing a flag simply to symbolise slavery. The only difference between the North and the South, was that slavery was legal in the south, and wasn't in the North. But it was only that way because a few men endorsed the Emancipation Proclamation. The general opinion of many northerners was, that slavery should still have been legalised.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 16):
Flying a confederate flag in the US is a bit like flying an old Transvaal or South African flag in SA. Neither flag in it's design makes any particular statement on race, although the old SA flag is replete with colonial symbolism, but neither was DESIGNED with racist overtones in mind;

Excellent. I could not have said any better.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
Again, I hope, despite JetJack's derision, that it works. It'd be better for those who are for the flag, and oppose it, to sit down, and discuss it, as we do here, and find common ground

It's got nothing to deriding the well-intentioned and i'm not debating whether the flag should be sanctioned or rejected, but the participants should be well-versed, and well-educated on the flag and it's sybolism from an impartial source, and not from some angry professor from Grambling State or UC-Berkley. Otherwise, a debate forum led by a group of angry, hand-wringing so-called intellectuals who're clueless to the facts, makes a "debate" pointless and moreover just another inept pep-rally for the socially blind, no matter how "friendly" the atmosphere is. It's realism, not just cynicism.  

[Edited 2006-09-02 22:52:42]


Made from jets!
25 Maury : Interesting, the lengths a few (thankfully few!) will go to in support of such a symbol. Personal attacks, coded innuendo...I guess the Confederate fl
26 DeltaGator : Why does my screwup with the name of a bridge bother you so much. Just wondering?
27 Maury : You was lecturin' others on history, and seems you mighta forgot that you wasn't always on the ball, history-wise... How often did your family mistak
28 DeltaGator : He wasn't kin Maury so who is wrong now? That's right...you. His last name was Shands and that is where my first name comes from. The bridge was name
29 Jetjack74 : Grambling State is an predomanantly African-American University, and UC-Berkley, a predominantly Liberal school. Most likely 2 school where you likel
30 DL021 : US soldiers from southern states, especially national guard/militia units, went to war using that pennant as an unofficial battle flag in the Spanish-
31 Falcon84 : Why? The people who misuse the flag to the hilt is the KKK, and other White Supremacists groups, Jack, and who do they almost always invoke-Adolpf Hi
32 CastleIsland : One of the things claimed as justification for continued use of the confederate flag really puzzles me: "Southern Pride." Hell, I was born in Massachu
33 Jetjack74 : And this is a fabulous point. The Maltese/Iron cross was worn not only by Nazi party members, German army and Luftwaffe, but a host of militaries. It
34 CastleIsland : No conflict at all, Jack. Loving a country is one thing, having pride about it is something else. This is the entire point of my post. Pride should b
35 DL021 : well....I'll disagree here. I feel pride of place in my country, state and city on different levels. The pride I feel has much to do with how I treat
36 CastleIsland : Well, thanks for the kind words, Ian, but I stand by my initial premise. One cannot logically have pride in something with which one had no involveme
37 Post contains images Delta767300ER : I love the Confederate Flag and have several of them in my house. Its a symbol of southern heritage and pride, not of hate and discrimination. Hate g
38 Post contains images Jetjack74 : Sorry, had to do it, lol. I do see your point.
39 Falcon84 : Not to you, I understand that. But to black Americans, it's a symbol of slavery. That cannot be denied. And, to people like me, it's a symbol of trea
40 DL021 : what're you...a Vulcan? Remember that they simply suppress their feelings because they're too afraid of them, and too weak to allow them out.... afte
41 MD-90 : His logic is....unlogical!
42 57AZ : You forgot that the Maltese Cross is also the traditional symbol of US Fire Companies. Returning to the Confederate Battle Ensign, I can appreciate t
43 DL021 : They would have had to hang hundreds or thousands of officers who had resigned their commissions (as had Lee) to serve in the CS army. Reconciliation
44 57AZ : All of the accounts that I recall indicate that he was a Marine officer. Quite possible that his forces were dispatched from Norfolk to Harper's Ferr
45 Post contains images Superfly : Well said.
46 DL021 : I double checked and he was a Colonel in the regular US Army, and had been offered a generalship in the Union Army at the beginning of the war, which
47 FDXMECH : the Emancipation Procamation was almost as unpopular up north as it was down south. The Northern cause was Union, not abolishing slavery. Between the
48 57AZ : Indeed correct. It should also be noted that the attempts made by the United States Congress to compensate slave owners financially for the emancipat
49 DL021 : There is some discussion as to whether Winfield Scott offered Lee the entire Army or an army, which is two different things. Just as today we have th
50 Delta767300ER : Falcon84, I understand that some people see it as a symbol of slavery and hatred. I cant change what others think. I proudly fly it, but I dont smear
51 DeltaGator : Completely off topic but the names of the armies varied based on North or South. In the South the name of the Army was based on the state or portion
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