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Lebanese Fishermen Fired On By Israeli Patrol Boat  
User currently offlineSoups From Ghana, joined Jun 2004, 3438 posts, RR: 14
Posted (8 years 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1701 times:

An Israeli patrol boat fired in the direction of three Lebanese fishing boats overnight, police in the southern port of Tyre said Sunday, two days after Israel lifted its naval blockade on the country.(nahar newspaper)
What about the UN ceasefire?


Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirxLiban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4512 posts, RR: 53
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1686 times:

Here's the link:

http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&A456174CA010C1B2C22571E5002B5824



PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1643 times:

Quoting Soups (Thread starter):
An Israeli patrol boat fired in the direction of three Lebanese fishing boats overnight, police in the southern port of Tyre said Sunday, two days after Israel lifted its naval blockade on the country.(nahar newspaper)
What about the UN ceasefire?

UN resolutions and ceasefires and UN-troops are nice, but what Israel needs is A) a REAL air-force with some 12 to 36 fighter bombers (Yemen just acquired some squadrons of MIG-29, but also Eurofighter and Rafale might be a choice) and B) a naval force with some cannon boats and some 3 to 12 submarines in order to create what can be regarded as a "deterrent force". Such gadgets are not free-of-charge but guarantee some safety and stability. And are basic doctrine in countries like Austria and Switzerland, but also the UAE and Oman.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1626 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 2):
naval force with some cannon boats and some 3 to 12 submarines in order to create what can be regarded as a "deterrent force



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 2):
basic doctrine in countries like Austria and Switzerland,

Switzerland has a navy?? Deterrent force; okay, doubt it will do Israel much good in today's world. To many crazy people out there.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1604 times:

Quoting AirCop (Reply 3):
Switzerland has a navy?? Deterrent force; okay, doubt it will do Israel much good in today's world. To many crazy people out there.

Switzerland and Austria do NOT have a navy of course, but both have an Air Force, both have tanks, artillery, anti-aircraft-forces and the whole gear. Israel also has that plus a navy and their armed forces are named "IDF Israel Defence Force". Just that Austria and Switzerland are not in the habit to attack anybody.


User currently offlineOD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1925 posts, RR: 32
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1587 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 2):
Yemen just acquired some squadrons of MIG-29, but also Eurofighter and Rafale might be a choice)

In the spirit of discussing the air force, I think a small squadron (or two) of Mirage 2000N will be a good choice for Lebanon. The Eurofighter and the Rafale are very expensive, I think in the region of $50 million per frame (even more).


User currently offlineOD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1925 posts, RR: 32
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1567 times:

Can't edit my post. Not the Mirage 2000N but the 2000-5 or 2000-9 models. The last thing we need is nuclear capabilities.  Smile

Regards.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1542 times:

Quoting OD720 (Reply 6):
2000-5 or 2000-9 models

might be quite sufficient for the job. The idea would be 2 squadrons. But the Russians offer their MIG-29 at convincing prices ! Another option would be three Squadrons of Harriers. Not exactly the latest technology, but fascinating capabilities. Things may be similar on the naval side, but beyond my personal knowledge.


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6878 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 weeks ago) and read 1515 times:

I thought Israel's patrol boats pack quit a punch for their size...
The IDF Sea Corps seems better than a lot of navies of countries with similar sizes.

Looking at the systems the IDF-SC has on its Sa'ar 4.5s they look impressive for their size, the Sa'ar 4s isn't as good as the 4.5s but they seem more than good enough. They look like mini corvettes, The smaller Sa'ar 2 looks more like a micro-corvette...

The air force already has over a dozen F15I (F15E equivalents or better), and let's not start counting the various F16s...

For Lebanon to have a real air force, if you want quantity while retaining some quality, go for the Mig29s... Lebanon won't need the range. However, that'll limit them to air-to-air capabilities with (very?) limited Air to Ground. I dunno what kind of budgets they have, but perhaps what Lebanon is a dozen or two of true multi-role light fighters. Mirage 2000-5s would surely look nice, but anyone thinks the Grippen might be a good idea for Lebanon?

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 weeks ago) and read 1508 times:

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 8):
Mirage 2000-5s

well, I would see either the Mirage-2000-5 or the MIG-29 for Lebanon. And some secondhand Harriers as an alternative.


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6878 posts, RR: 75
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 weeks ago) and read 1503 times:

Well, second hand harriers would make it a unique scope for the middle east. No need for long runways... just shorties will do. They would make Close Air Support platforms too, which I think is ideal for Lebanon's "imposed" task by "the world" to be able to maintain its sovereignty against internal problems by using its own military.

I got a feeling that Syria won't be too happy if Lebanon has M2000-5s... I think it would be better if Lebanon goes for Western European platforms... (M2000s, Gripens, Bae Hawks, but no AMX plz... *evil grin*)

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1496 times:

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 10):
M2000s, Gripens, Bae Hawks

M2000-. why not, but true, a number of BAe Hawks or some second-hand Tornado fighters also might help


User currently offlineOD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1925 posts, RR: 32
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1491 times:

I think this should be moved to Military Av.

The Mirage 2000 is a good choice.
As for second hand fighters strike/fighters, the would go either with the Mirage F.1 or the SEPECAT Jaguar.
South African Air Force has about 24 Mirage F.1s offered for sale since 2004  Smile


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6878 posts, RR: 75
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1467 times:

Tornado ADVs would be too heavy for their needs and will probably end up as a lame duck. It seems the only force able to use the ADVs properly is the RAF... even the Saudis seem unable.

I think the Lebanese AF needs a good ground attack capability in case Hizbullah might be up to mischief again...

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1431 times:

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 13):
I think the Lebanese AF needs a good ground attack capability in case Hizbullah might be up to mischief again...

So that it would be 24 Mirage F.1 and 24 Harrier !


User currently offlineOD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1925 posts, RR: 32
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1428 times:

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 13):

My idea of such a force will be purely defensive.
Differences with Hezbollah must be dealt through politics and dialogue.

I'm against building a force which may represent a threat to both of our neighbors, even though both have been quite destructive towards Lebanon.

I agree that the Tornado would be too heavy. I won't be surprised, in case Lebanon was looking for fighters, the US offering some F-16s from the early blocks.


User currently offlineRolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1809 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1428 times:

Just a stupid warning shot maybe.

A lebanese air force of a dozen multi purpose fighters would be enough... just in case you wanna drop some bombs or intercept a the lost cessna wandering in dangerous territory. No need for anything bigger, because:
- This war has shown the inefficiency of airforce against gerilla
- Theres no way it could be a match for israel or enter israeli airspace. Against israel, it is so much smarter to invest in missiles  Wink
- Against any other airforce the defense should consist of AA missiles



rolf
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1423 times:

Quoting OD720 (Reply 15):
such a force will be purely defensive.

it of course has to be a strictly defensive force, and THAT needs to be made public. And NOT to be used against people inside the country.

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 16):
to invest in missiles Wink
- Against any other airforce the defense should consist of AA missiles

good anti-aircraft missiles may be good as a relative deterrent, but are of relatively low military value, and cannot replace a small fighter force.


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6878 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1408 times:

ME AVN FAN, I'd be happy if they go for 24 used Mirage F.1s and 24 used Harriers...

OD720,
Yes, agree entirely... The air force should be used as a deterrent for Hizbullah or any other trouble makers to deal with differences of the nation's interest through politics and not by throwing rockets at neighbours and ending up causing the whole country to get whacked (whether this was the case or not should go on a different thread, but such a risk exists).

There is no point in building a force to match Israel, coz, Lebanon will need 100x the amount of tourists pre-summer 2006 to support such a procurement (note: sarcasm). However, there is a need to provide sufficient defence against other neighbours who might want to use force to influence Lebanon's foreign policy (ie: Syria)... Although there is low probability that Syria would conduct aggression against Lebanon, Lebanon should have a means to intercept and if required shoot down cross border "black flights" that could occur.

Given the current US administration, I wouldn't be surprised if they offer early block F16s up to 24 aircraft... but I seriously doubt they would offer more unless Syria starts to throw tantrums...

on Rolfen's points, I would agree with caution. The recent conflict has shown the inefficency against guerillas, however, the fastest way to deal with them when they show up (not when they hide) is still by air. If Lebanon does enter a civil war with the Hizbollah, it needs to push it to a conventional war direction to effectively use air assets. However, even if its guerilla warfare, air assets are still valuable when dealing with it real time (which I suspect was not how the IDF-AF committed its resources due to information gaps from the ground in S. Lebanon).

Adopting the Israeli method of air mobility is the best method, with heli gunship support. One does not need Cobras or Apaches... simple modified Bell412s with gun turrets and rockets on stub wings would be enough against numerous low-value soft targets (which is what guerilla warfare tends to be)... anything bigger its best to call in the jets...

Investing in missiles is risky on a front line basis. SAMs are best for point defence of strategic targets instead... again, the low value of the attackers assets would be greatly offset by the importance of the place they're defending, hence "economically justifying" the use of SAMs instead of AA guns.

When taking an overall view of Lebanon Air Defence "guess-requirements"... I would give my 2 cents worth of recommended procurement:
Air Surveillance assets - Given the small size of the country, ground based air defence radars, such as the mobile units should be used.
Maritime patrol assets - A few C406 Caravan IIs should be enough for searching and identifying. Use of force is best to coordinate with the COIN/CAS assets.
Lightweight multipurpose combat aircraft such as the Hawks would be enough for interdiction of black flights, light CAS, and maritime interdiction of light targets (smugglers etc).
Light-Medium multi purpose helicopter platforms to provide air mobility for the army, light Counter Insurgency platform and close-in maritime interdiction of light targets. Something like the Bell 412 with provisions of gunpods/turrets and provision of stub wings for dumb ammunitions such as FFARs and/or cannon pods.
Medium Multipurpose Combat Aircraft such as used Mirage F.1s would provide good coverage of ground attack and air defence as well as anti-ship roles.

Such a "small" force would effectively cover the requirements of Lebanon without provoking its neighbours. I think 24 M2000s and 24 Harriers might be a bit too heavy. However, given the country's lack of air infrastructure and the terrain involved, the Harriers would be an effective addition...

*Man, a few Broncos would do for Lebanon a few decades ago! LOL*

Just my 2 cents worth...

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 week 6 days ago) and read 1397 times:

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 18):
a force to match Israe

The doctrine of a strong deterrent force does NOT mean to "match" the forces of ANY potential aggressor, the doctrine however means to make the "price of entry" up to a level which the superior power avoids if possible. A strong deterrent force will convince the bully to talk. The owner-country of such a deterrent force will have to compromise, open up some traffic links, some bank services, etc. It is not exceedingly honourable but it means that the country survives, that its cities and roads do not get bombed, etc. In case you wonder what I wrote about, it is about the Swiss armed forces, whose doctrine just is as outlined above. These armed forces now for instance have F-18 as frontline fighters, a respectable anti-aircraft-force, a sizeable artillery, an astonishingly large tank-force, everything except a navy. Such a deterrant force is NOT to "match" anybody, not to attack anybody, not to threaten anybody. It is by doctrine a defensive force. --- And to go for politics. Just as neutral countries like Ireland, Austria, Sweden and Finland are full E.U.-members, Lebanon might declare neutrality and nevertheless stay a member of the Arab League. The Arab League is NOT a military pact, as we have seen quite nicely this year, but also on other occasions.


User currently offlineOD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1925 posts, RR: 32
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1379 times:

Here is the status of those South African Mirage F.1s from Wikipedia:

In 2004 up to 21 F1AZs were reported in storage at AFB Hoedspruit, awaiting a possible buyer. In April 2006, it was reported that Gabon had purchased the surviving Mirage F1AZs and spares for about ZAR 40 million. On 17 August 2006, French news agency Agence France-Presse (AFP) reported that two upgraded ex-South African F1AZs had taken part in a fly-past over Libreville earlier that day in celebration of Gabon's independence day. The refurbishment and upgrade of the aircraft was carried out by Aerosud. Aerosud Group managing director Dr. Paul Potgieter confirmed his company's involvement, but declined to give numbers or cite figures. It was also reported at that time that Gabon had only bought 3 Mirage F1 from South Africa, and it was unclear whether the third aircraft was another F1AZ or a two-seat F1CZ.


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1375 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 2):
UN resolutions and ceasefires and UN-troops are nice, but what Israel needs is A) a REAL air-force with some 12 to 36 fighter bombers (Yemen just acquired some squadrons of MIG-29, but also Eurofighter and Rafale might be a choice) and B) a naval force with some cannon boats and some 3 to 12 submarines in order to create what can be regarded as a "deterrent force". Such gadgets are not free-of-charge but guarantee some safety and stability. And are basic doctrine in countries like Austria and Switzerland, but also the UAE and Oman.

I was confused initially but now I think I understand: Although you wrote "what Israel needs is A) a REAL air-force", what you mean is that for Israel to be deterred, Lebanon (not Israel) needs to acquire a real air force. Is that correct?

I'm sorry to seem obtuse, but I misinterpreted your message and am simply asking for clarification, for which I thank you in advance.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1364 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 21):

-

-
****************
UN resolutions and ceasefires and UN-troops are nice, but what LEBANON needs is A) a REAL air-force with some 12 to 36 fighter bombers (Yemen just acquired some squadrons of MIG-29, but also Eurofighter and Rafale might be a choice) and B) a naval force with some cannon boats and some 3 to 12 submarines in order to create what can be regarded as a "deterrent force". Such gadgets are not free-of-charge but guarantee some safety and stability. And are basic doctrine in countries like Austria and Switzerland, but also the UAE and Oman.
***
-
Here the correction ! Thanks


User currently offlineAerospaceFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1353 times:

Thanks for the correction, ME AVN FAN.

I wonder how much money Lebanon can afford to spend on an air force. Fighter jets of this magnitude don't come cheap.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1348 times:

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 23):
how much money Lebanon can afford to spend on an air force. Fighter jets of this magnitude don't come cheap.

Not much in fact. But to have a force IS necessary, and there may be a "sponsor" around, who takes over their finance ! I mean, how TF does Yemen finance its new MIG-29 ? No, they have to go for a bargain. Switzerland for instance buys fighters where the partners give subcontracts to Swiss companies, to produce things which not only are used for the Swiss Air Force but can also be sold to third countries also having the same aircraft. It is the so-called "offset-business". Another aspect on the offset business side is the technology transfer. The Lebanese might take over some maintenance business for whomever supplies at a social tariff !


25 AerospaceFan : Rather than an escalating arms race, it occurs to me that Israel and Lebanon need to build bridges between their respective peoples. In a small, conce
26 ME AVN FAN : I was an advocate of THIS, until 13th July 2006. Do you believe that this idea at present finds a single soul in Lebanon ? The market value of this c
27 AerospaceFan : I hear you. I'm not all that happy that you're right about this, but I think you speak the truth: It's the weapons manufacturers that stand to benefi
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