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Canada, Get Out Of Afghanistan: NDP  
User currently offlineSKYSERVICE_330 From Canada, joined Sep 2000, 1391 posts, RR: 5
Posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2429 times:

Get out of Afghanistan now: NDP
Caucus to discuss how this week
Sep. 10, 2006. 01:00 AM
BRUCE CAMPION-SMITH
OTTAWA BUREAU

QUEBEC—NDP Leader Jack Layton wants Parliament to debate the withdrawal of Canadian soldiers from Afghanistan after party delegates overwhelmingly backed his call to "bring the troops home."

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...geid=968332188774&col=968350116467

I don't think anyone doubts that Afghanistan is a very dangerous mission for Canadian troops (as evidenced by the soldiers coming home in body bags) however, the last thing we need to do at this point is pull out with our tail between our legs. Thank goodness Jack isn't the PM with his NDP colleagues in cabinet. Cowards.

Thoughts?

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2418 times:

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Thread starter):
I don't think anyone doubts that Afghanistan is a very dangerous mission for Canadian troops (as evidenced by the soldiers coming home in body bags) however, the last thing we need to do at this point is pull out with our tail between our legs. Thank goodness Jack isn't the PM with his NDP colleagues in cabinet. Cowards.

Exactly correct. Jack Layton a week or two ago wanted to talk with the Taliban, now he wants a full pullout, he's all over the place. Canada is doing a job over that that needs to be seen through to completion. I'm especially disgusted with him blaming Harper and the Conservative government for Afghanistan lately, now it's no secret that I'm a huge Conservative, but still, does he forget that it was Paul Martin and the Liberals that sent our troops there in the first place?

It's comments like this that make Jack Layton and the NDP an ever decreasing force in Canadian politics. Canada has chosen not to participate in some elements of the War on Terror, but the Afghanistan mission, which we supported, we need to win, and see through to the finish. Canada never backed down in WWI, WWII, or any other conflict that we've been engaged in militarily. This is the time for Canadians to stand behind our troops and their mission, not undercut them and have people at home questioning their mission. Our soilders deserve better than people like Jack Layton questioning their mission.

See you later Jack, you'll never win over the support of many Canadians.


User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2414 times:

Layton and the NDP should be ashamed of themselves for trying to score political points with the Canadian public on the backs of dead service members.

Simply despicable.



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4773 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2414 times:

This is absolutley shameful, but not surprising coming from Layton. I actually considered voting Liberal (gasp) just because Jack Layton was up for election in my riding when I lived in Toronto. I would be lying to you if I said that the combination of David Miller, Jack Layton and Dalton McGuinty had nothing to do with my choice to leave.

What kind of message would a flat out retreat send to Canadian troops? What have they been toughing it out for (and losing some of their friends in the process) the past few years? That Canada's military is only there to hand out candy to children and help 80-year old grandmothers cross the street in some sort of NDP fantasy? It would destroy whatever morale is still there. And sends a clear message to Al-Qaeda that Canada has no intention of defending its interests.


User currently offlineCRJ705 From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2406 times:

I think Layton and his camp wants us to pull out of Afghanistan because they believe that we are just lapdogs to President Bush. I personally dont believe we are in Afghanistan just to please the United States, yet Layton is pushing this stance. There can be two reasons for this, one is that Layton truly believes that our mission in Afghanistan is to satisfy Washington, which seems unlikely given how intelligent Layton is. The second and most proboble reason is that he wishes to capitalize on the recent public opinion polls which are showing Canadians are increasingly against the Afghan War. Its kind of similar to the Democrats in the United States reversing stance on the Iraqi War because popular opinion is turning against troops staying in Iraq. Layton is posturing for the next election, by appealing to his core supporters while trying to extend his support base to more moderates that might have a less positive impression of the mission in Afghanistan that might usually vote Liberal, but these more moderate individuals might associate the Liberal Party with the Afghan War because it was a Liberal government that sent troops into Afghanistan in the first place. I hope we do stay in Afghanistan to stablize the South and to give Afghanis a chance to enjoy the freedom that we take for granted.

Regards
CRJ705


User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4773 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2396 times:

Quoting CRJ705 (Reply 4):
Layton is posturing for the next election, by appealing to his core supporters while trying to extend his support base to more moderates

I can't see how he is possibly expanding his support base. Love the USA or hate them, the Canadian Prime Minister is still going to have to get along with the President of the USA at least to some extent. Does anyone even in the NDP see a slim probablity that Layton will ever be the PM? I doubt it. Would Canada under an NDP government try to move away from trade dependence with the United States? I'm sure the Chinese would more than happy to buy up all the oil and gas production.

Canadians are a practical lot and they don't usually vote for flash and bluster. The NDP is irrelevant to Canadian politics other than possibly shoring up a Liberal minority, which I don't think anyone wants to go through again.

[Edited 2006-09-11 02:20:27]

User currently offlineSkySurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 2384 times:

Sorry to say (actually i'm not) but Canadian politics is all BS...this country is so slow to do anything. The only thing the political parties actually agree on is that we have to be somewhere in the world, but god forbid that costs money!! truth is our soldiers are dying because we just can't cut the red tape quick enough that is stopping our troops having 21st century equipment. If you disagree please direct your comments to General Rick Hillier who is trying his best, more than any politician to protect our troops and allow them to do their jobs and return home alive. Stop the crap people.......we committed, we're there so help us do the mission. I live in Kingston and i've seen the effects of people coming home in bodybags, i've spoke to wives who's husbands are in Kandahar and i've received email off Canadian soldiers telling me what it's like over there. Politicians...put on your flak vests and go see 1st hand what it is you're PREACHING about. We rely way too much on the US for support defensively wise, and the death of a soldier in a friendly fire by a US aircraft only goes to hightlight that....we're so reliant we can't even support ourselves and have to rely on military help from abroad. Politicians should be ashamed of themselves, not spewing rhetoric. I'm not Canadian but i call this my home.....please please please politicians get your heads together and make Canada what it should be, don't waste it into your own personal image which means i's a joke.

Stu

ps.....i thank every single Canadian soldier in the field or wherever, i'd be with you if it weren't for visa restrictions

edited for spelling

[Edited 2006-09-11 02:26:30]


In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2372 times:

Canadians should be very proud of what their soldiers are doing in the 'Stan. Canada has a small military, yet they've performed like what you'd expect from any of the majors. And they've proven themselves as world class soldiers while operating quite successfully on extremely difficult terrain.

-UH60


User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2371 times:

Quoting SkySurfer (Reply 6):
i thank every single Canadian soldier in the field or wherever, i'd be with you if it weren't for visa restrictions

I understand that feeling, although I have no Visa restrictions. I've wanted to be a police officer my whole life, but recently, I've seriously been considering doing a couple of tours in the Canadian military after I finish off university in spring 2007. My good friend and roomate from first year is in the Army here, and he believes in what we're doing overseas, I feel that because I am of an age where I am able to help, and because I believe in what we're doing over there so much, it's time for me to put my money where my mouth is so to speak, and join up.


User currently offlineSkySurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2362 times:

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 8):
I feel that because I am of an age where I am able to help, and because I believe in what we're doing over there so much, it's time for me to put my money where my mouth is so to speak, and join up.

I applaud you for that, i really do and if that's the path youchoose to go down i'm behind you 100% and i wish you the very best. If everyone thought like that we'd be a superb county, not just a wonderful one.
I have said that i would join up as this is my adopted country yet my visa restricts me, but as Gen Hiilier says we really should allow immigrants to show their thanks to their adopted countries...i don't care about a fast track to citizenship as i became eligible last year, it's just money in my case. But when i become a Canadian i won't hesitate....as long as i'm not older than 27 by then, lol.

To the Canadian troops...Tim Hortons salutes you
To the Americans.....we're with you
To the Brits....sorry, i swapped sides
To all the other allies......keep on rockin!

Stu



In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3076 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2356 times:

rememebr these asshols from the NDP are the same ones who had a resolution calling canadian soldiers terrorists.

I am not sure about afganistan...Sometimes i wonder if the bad guys over there are just replacing thier black taliban turbans for "white" ones. Instead of women being shot on camera in the stadium are now jsut being shot out behind the statium with out the camera's.

Having said that we have to try something. The way it was beyond brutal.

My sister is in the military and has been through Afganistan. I am proud of the way that canadian soldiers have stepped up this time.

GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineBasas From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2353 times:

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 1):
Exactly correct. Jack Layton a week or two ago wanted to talk with the Taliban, now he wants a full pullout, he's all over the place.



Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 1):
It's comments like this that make Jack Layton and the NDP an ever decreasing force in Canadian politics.



Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 1):
See you later Jack, you'll never win over the support of many Canadians.

 checkmark  The NDP is a complete joke...the sad thing is many of the Canadian left actually agree with him and think he's great. Then again, this is Canada so its not exactly surprising common sense and intelligent decisions don't play any role.


User currently offlineBasas From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 216 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2352 times:

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 8):
I feel that because I am of an age where I am able to help, and because I believe in what we're doing over there so much, it's time for me to put my money where my mouth is so to speak, and join up.

Good luck! Most of us support you guys!


User currently offlineSkySurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2352 times:

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 10):
I am not sure about afganistan.

I know exactly what you mean.....sometimes it seems like it could just be a political agenda, just like Iraq could be an agenda to anyone else, but it's always going to be THAT way to someone,isn't it. We belive in the greater good and we believe in a better world and we have to recognize the cost and sacrifice that may bring, your sister definately included. Some things we will never know, we may never understand other cultures that are strict in comparison to ours, but we do recognize the good form the bad and i think that's the only way to look at it. We can't impose our will on others but we can do what we THINK is neccesary to stop the evil in the world. I just hope (and it's probably a foolish hope) that we can all live in peace one day, no religion clashing with another no EGO clasing with anyone else....just an easy calm and a great life for the future generations.

Hope i made some kind of sense

Stoo

this is the edited part.....maybe i'm too optimistic??? Sad

[Edited 2006-09-11 03:00:43]


In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
User currently offlineMartinairYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 1209 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2338 times:

Quoting MattRB (Reply 2):
Layton and the NDP should be ashamed of themselves for trying to score political points with the Canadian public on the backs of dead service members.

Simply despicable.



Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 3):
This is absolutley shameful, but not surprising coming from Layton

Why? We're there at an unjust cause, and someone who doesn't have a love affair with Bush, or Bush Jr. (Harper) wants to do the right thing, and not to police the world and then get everyone hating us, just like the world hates USA. Also the cost in lives for something which isn't our business should really not continue... why isn't Harper in Afghanistan fighting? He's scared? Then go and hug Bush....

Quoting CRJ705 (Reply 4):
think Layton and his camp wants us to pull out of Afghanistan because they believe that we are just lapdogs to President Bush.

Weel said, that's exactly what we're turning into. As long as Bush Jr. stays in power, then our country is heading the wrong way, the way of USA.



Chelsea Football Club supporter.
User currently offlineSkySurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2334 times:

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 14):
why isn't Harper in Afghanistan fighting? He's scared?

I'm afraid that ever since Harper gained the top spot, he's put on so much weight he couldn't run to the phone, let alone to the plane from CFB Trenton!
Hate to say it, but does anyone else see that Harper is getting a bit 'bloated'?

Martin...good to see you still remember the site  Smile

Stu 'the real English one'



In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4773 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2330 times:

Quoting SkySurfer (Reply 15):
Weel said, that's exactly what we're turning into. As long as Bush Jr. stays in power, then our country is heading the wrong way, the way of USA.

Which way do you suggest Canada go then? I'm open to all opinions, but my personal belief is that lending assistance to the Americans in Afghanistan is the least that Canada can do to show its support for a historical ally and friend. And it is in Canada's interest to have a relativley stable Afghanistan. Iraq is another story altogether and shouldn't be brought up in this context.

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 14):
Why? We're there at an unjust cause

Thats right, the Taliban: Champions of human dignity and peacemakers of the world. I really don't understand what you are getting at there. Is helping the Afghan government maintain control over its country and eliminating terrorist threats somehow bad?

[Edited 2006-09-11 03:30:51]

User currently offlineSkySurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2306 times:

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 16):

Which way do you suggest Canada go then? I'm open to all opinions, but my personal belief is that lending assistance to the Americans in Afghanistan is the least that Canada can do to show its support for a historical ally and friend. And it is in Canada's interest to have a relativley stable Afghanistan. Iraq is another story altogether and shouldn't be brought up in this context.

Umm you quoted the wrong person my friend, i think you were quoting martininairyyz....read the above and read what i said, and you'll realize i had nothing to do with what you're replying to.

Stu



In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4773 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2303 times:

Sorry, must have hilighted your reply by mistake when I edited my post. I intended to respond to MartinairYYZ.

User currently offlineSkySurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2298 times:

That's ok, mistakes happen and it's not a problem  Smile

Stu



In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2265 times:

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 14):
Why? We're there at an unjust cause, and someone who doesn't have a love affair with Bush, or Bush Jr. (Harper) wants to do the right thing, and not to police the world and then get everyone hating us, just like the world hates USA. Also the cost in lives for something which isn't our business should really not continue... why isn't Harper in Afghanistan fighting? He's scared? Then go and hug Bush....

Oh, please. Stop drinking the socialist kool-aid, will you? Unjust cause? Hardly. We're there to free a country from repression and help rebuild it. We're there fighting against islamo-fascism. Hardly unjust causes.

I suppose you're also one of those types that believes that Canada wasn't on the Al-Queda radar until we went into Afghanistan?

Pull your head of the sand and take a real hard look at the world around it. It's not a nice place. Sometimes someone has to take a stand against those who would seek to be the bully.

Now, if we were in Iraq, your argument that we're the US' lapdog might hold water. But we're not. We didn't believe in that, so we're not participating.



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineAC888YOW From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 522 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2245 times:

The real title of this thread should be:

Quote:
NDP, get out of Canada: Canadians


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2234 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 7):
Canadians should be very proud of what their soldiers are doing in the 'Stan. Canada has a small military, yet they've performed like what you'd expect from any of the majors. And they've proven themselves as world class soldiers while operating quite successfully on extremely difficult terrain.

I was reading the Globe and Mail this am and Canada's getting ready to send 15 of their Leopard Is and 120 footsloggers into Afghanistan and you'd think from the comments section that it was The End Of Life As We Know It. Some guy suggested that the cost of fuel and provisioning would strain a military already stretched to the limit.

A lot of Canadians are pretty conflicted about playing on the world stage and their politicians are not above exploiting this-sadly, it always plays pretty well to beat up on the gringos to the south when there's nothing else to talk about in Canada. I mean, you can't bash gays and blacks any more....many do not bother to distinguish between our people (many of whom did not vote for the present administration) and our government.

The opinion of the US is already pretty low in Canada, especially in Quebec, according to a recent CBC poll. The body bags don't help much, especially when it's a friendly fire incident.

On the other hand, if I was Canadian I'd be damned annoyed at the politicans playing to the galleries and not spending enough time on domestic issues.


User currently offlineLnglive1011yyz From Canada, joined Oct 2003, 1606 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2227 times:

Quoting MartinairYYZ (Reply 14):
Why? We're there at an unjust cause, and someone who doesn't have a love affair with Bush, or Bush Jr. (Harper) wants to do the right thing, and not to police the world and then get everyone hating us, just like the world hates USA. Also the cost in lives for something which isn't our business should really not continue... why isn't Harper in Afghanistan fighting? He's scared? Then go and hug Bush....

So, if you apply that line of thinking Martin, should have the world stood back and let Hitler exterminate *every* Jew on the face of the Earth???

Just because something is unpopular, doesn't mean that we need to fall sides with the yuppie-generation and try to sit around and do the 'talk-diplomacy' option..

It takes more of a leader to stand-tall, against opposition, in the face of adversity, and tackle it all-head on..

We've tried talking with the terrorists for years, and it's quite apparent that you cannot diplomacize a group of people who are living in 100AD.

You know, you better hope that the Jihadists don't decide to start attacking other places in Europe, because if we start applying your line of logic, maybe we'll just sit back and let them wipe out Europe, and we'll just protect our own asses here in North America.

I trust your opinion on this would be different if your family members was blown to bits on September 11'th 2001.

1011yyz



Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4845 posts, RR: 16
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2223 times:

Jack Layton is a tool and nothing more than a cheap opportunist. He's a waste of space and an embarrassment to this country.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
25 ANCFlyer : Apparently, he has supporters as well?!
26 A332 : I've always been a fence-sitter with Afghanistan but I believe we are too far entrenched to just pull out and walk away... we're committed and we need
27 UH60FtRucker : Just a point of curiosity... what IS a just cause for Canada to go to war for? I wonder what purpose does Canada's military serve then? Certainly not
28 Lnglive1011yyz : I would hazard a guess that MOST Canadians were on-side for helping out in Afghanistan, but when it comes to Iraq, I think most Canadians are NOT on
29 Blrsea : I can understand not sending troops to Iraq, but to Afghanistan? The poor country is just getting over the horrible taliban rule, and a NATO troops ar
30 NeilYYZ : Unfortunatly he does, however, a lot of his supporters are more of the Tree Hugger variety. Jack Layton and the NDP have been huge preponents of envi
31 Post contains links HKA : Read the poll below: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/07092006/...ys-most-canadians-blame-u-s-9.html
32 Post contains images Skookum : Please. That's just the type of mentality that kept the U.S. in Vietnam. Brilliant idea.
33 Dougloid : Here's my take on it. We're in the position of a guy, driving the wrong way down a one way street, runs over some bystander and fucks him up bad. Now
34 Lnglive1011yyz : " target=_blank>http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/07092006/....html That makes perfectly legit sense.. We already know that the US' Foreign Policy is what ma
35 HKA : Noble thing, yes. But is that the reason why US invaded Iraq. I didn't know US was so nice as to spend $500 billion, sacrifice 2500 soldiers to free
36 Post contains images Blrsea : Pakistan is one of these tyrants that should be invaded and liberated, and the Taliban/OBL/Afghanistan problem will be solved for ever, and Canada ca
37 CPDC10-30 : Don't try to change the subject. We are talking about Canadian involvement in Afghanistan. We are talking about a mission to stabilize a country that
38 Lnglive1011yyz : Subject change. Irrelevant. Canada's Military is NOT involved in Iraq in any large numbers. Thank you. Whenever you get into a conversation with peop
39 HKA : I was talking of Canada and US in Afghanistan but you are bringing regional conflict matters in discussion. Define tyrancy. Is there no tyrancy in In
40 HKA : I was talking of Canada and US in Afghanistan but you are bringing regional conflict matters in discussion. Define tyrancy. Is there no tyrancy in In
41 Falcon84 : You've got to be kidding? No joke? They actually did THAT? What is unjust about going after the goons who perpertrated 9/11, and the former goon gove
42 Post contains links AC888YOW : Yes. Pretty despicable isn't it? The full article can be read here, but the main quote is that Canadian soldiers have been
43 Post contains links Dougloid : At least we don't have to put up with those fucking morons down here LOL they hate the lower 48 so much we don't have to worry about them dirtying th
44 Blrsea : That shows your knowledge of current world events !! Please read up on the web again. And for your information, the UN resolutions are non-binding. B
45 Lutenist : I don't vote NDP, but I have to say that it's unfair to brand the NDP generally as a party accusing CDN soldiers of terrorism. What the article appea
46 HKA : I don't support the Taliban. The Taliban are themselves ignorant of the true Islamic teachings. But using force in Afghanistan and border areas will p
47 Post contains links Blrsea : CNN Anderson Cooper transcripts of Sept 11 from Afghanistan
48 Post contains images B747-437B : Just curious which side India allegedly sponsors in Sri Lanka? Lets not lose sight of the fact that entire Khalistani terrorist movement was largely
49 Lnglive1011yyz : And it's our fault that THEY chose to strike / harbour the terrorist that purpotrated the 9/11 attacks? The strife and hardships the Taliban were put
50 Post contains images Dougloid : And there are people who persist in trying to reinvent the 9th century through obsolete musical instruments LOL
51 AerospaceFan : Normally I would get in on the "get a grip, NDP" argument, but these days, considering how the Liberals have lost so much credibility, and how the Co
52 AC888YOW : You're right ... any bumbling idiot can come out and spew nonsense. A party is judged by its leader, and so in my opinion Layton should have publicly
53 Lutenist : Oh, not you again!
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