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The Best War Ever  
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2837 times:



And for those "Old news, get a life, blah blah blah" people...

Until those responsible are held accountable, this is important. As long as our soldiers in Iraq are dying, this is important. As long as the real war on terror is ignored and Osama Bin Laden is free, this is important.


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33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2823 times:

Somehow, using "best" and "war" in the same sentence is simply absurd.

User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2794 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 1):
Somehow, using "best" and "war" in the same sentence is simply absurd.

Especially for anyone that has ever served their country in one of the military services. Suggested reading: this weeks Sports Illustrated article on Pat Tillman journey from 9/11 to this death in Afghanistan.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2775 times:

The best war was between Camp NorthStar and Camp Mohawk......



Are you ready for Summer?

[Edited 2006-09-11 06:02:24]


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2757 times:

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
As long as our soldiers in Iraq are dying

Can I just say something about the quote above...

If you truly care about preventing the death of soldiers... why don't you help get more soldiers to take motorcycle safety courses?

You know... considering how we lose more soldiers per year in vehicle crashes, than all yearly combat deaths (all theaters combined).

It's just a little pet peeve... if people are worried about me and my buddies, well why aren't you trying to eliminate the number one cause of death? Please tell me it has nothing to do with the fact that motorcycle accidents are not useful in political arguments and agendas. This goes for both Reps and Dems.

-UH60


User currently offlineCoal From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2053 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2748 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 4):
If you truly care about preventing the death of soldiers... why don't you help get more soldiers to take motorcycle safety courses?

I'd like to take your word for it, but it just sounds too incredible. More soldiers die in motorcycle accidents than in combat? Does this include all the deaths from this war?

Coal



Nxt Flts: VA SYD-CBR-SYD | VA SYD-LAX | VX LAX-FLL | AV MIA-BOG-MIA | VX FLL-LAX | VA LAX-SYD
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2743 times:

Quoting Coal (Reply 5):
More soldiers die in motorcycle accidents than in combat? Does this include all the deaths from this war?

Actually while I haven't heard official statistics for this combat, I do recall that the US Army has a lower loss rate for personel during the 1st gulf war then if they had been stateside.

Mainly because they where not on the freeways.


Also most lost days for US Army Aviatiors are caused by Softball, not duty related activities.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2738 times:

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
As long as the real war on terror is ignored and Osama Bin Laden is free, this is important.

Osama has not been forgotten, Canadians are fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan every day. With the help of the Americans and other NATO forces. I realize that we may not have as big an army as the Americans, not even close, but Rucker seems to think that we're holding our own there. America has moved on to Iraq and done an outstanding job there, it dosen't mean that America has forgotten Bin Laden, just that other forces are currently hunting him as well.


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2729 times:

Quoting Coal (Reply 5):
I'd like to take your word for it, but it just sounds too incredible. More soldiers die in motorcycle accidents than in combat? Does this include all the deaths from this war?

Coal

I'm sorry - I should have worded that better. We lose more soldiers per year to MOTOR VEHICLE accidents than in combat.

When I suggested motorcycle safety courses it was because that is the largest growing segment of motor vehicle deaths. We still lose far too many soldiers in car crashes... but the jump in motorcycle deaths is very alarming.

But yes, combat deaths are NOT the number one preventable cause of death for US soldiers.

-UH60

EDIT:
The comparison between motor vehicle accidents and combat deaths are on a yearly basis. IE: Every year we lose Y amount of soldiers in combat and X of soldiers in motor vehicle accidents. X is always greater than Y. Now of course, if you used ALL of the combat deaths since 2001, then yes, it would be greater than the number of soldiers lost in accidents per year.

[Edited 2006-09-11 07:11:08]

User currently offlinePadraighaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2709 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 8):
We lose more soldiers per year to MOTOR VEHICLE accidents than in combat.

Well if we're going to use statistics in this manner, it would be interesting to know how many iraqi women and children die annually to reduce american troop fatalities?

It should be simple; Let Y = troop deaths in Iraq, X = motor vehicle troop losses in US so X-Y is the troop gain. Let W be the number of women killed in the violence and C the number of children. Therefore the yield ratio in question is

(W+C)/(X-Y) = Deaths of Women and children required per extra troop life saved.

As long as X > Y, the ratio is positive and so war is beneficial to our troops. Ya gotta love statistics.


User currently offlinePadraighaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2702 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 4):
You know... considering how we lose more soldiers per year in vehicle crashes, than all yearly combat deaths (all theaters combined).

And of course, since it's late I missed the more obvious response to this statistic, namely that this could be taken as an indication of how bloated and out of control our military is.

As I said, ya gotta love statistics - and this one is a keeper.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21480 posts, RR: 54
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2698 times:

One could only hope that the numbers involving physical injuries and psychological trauma were as "favourable" for the war, but I sort of doubt that...!  crazy 

Completely ignoring the other victims besides those among the US military, of course.


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2698 times:

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 9):

I really think that was uncalled for and you owe me an appology.

To even suggest that I place less emphasis on Iraqi civilians deaths than American deaths is insulting. You obviously know nothing about me. Because if you did, you would know about instances such as putting myself, and my helicopter, between wounded Iraqis and the insurgents. On numerous occasions, my crew and I have not thought twice about exposing ourselves to greater danger, so that we can shield the medics as they tend to injured civilians.

And don't throw the number of Iraqi deaths in my face, as though I am some how oblivious to them. I've seen more dead than I care to talk about, I've cried tears over the bodies of Americans and Iraqis.

So please don't talk to me like you know a damn thing about life over here. Your post was rude and very telling about your character.

-UH60


User currently offlineNeilYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2685 times:

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 9):

Well if we're going to use statistics in this manner, it would be interesting to know how many iraqi women and children die annually to reduce american troop fatalities?

It should be simple; Let Y = troop deaths in Iraq, X = motor vehicle troop losses in US so X-Y is the troop gain. Let W be the number of women killed in the violence and C the number of children. Therefore the yield ratio in question is

(W+C)/(X-Y) = Deaths of Women and children required per extra troop life saved.

As long as X > Y, the ratio is positive and so war is beneficial to our troops. Ya gotta love statistics.



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):
I really think that was uncalled for and you owe me an appology.

I've got to say that I support Rucker on this one. He's over there putting his ass on the line every day so that you can carry out your normal life. He went there whether he agreed with the reasons or not, because that's his job, to protect your country.

Have some respect for the people who keep you safe and are willing to die for you.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21480 posts, RR: 54
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2682 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):
So please don't talk to me like you know a damn thing about life over here. Your post was rude and very telling about your character.

Maybe - maybe not.

From your previous posts and until I have reason to assume otherwise, I tend to believe that the cynical calculations above were indeed just an excursion, not your dominant mindset.

But once that door is opened, you're not the only one able to go through it - and back again.

I may have missed it, but I don't think Padraighaz actually claimed that you were that jaded. And I guess we all hope it will never be the case.

A bit of clarification from him probably couldn't hurt, however...

[Edited 2006-09-11 08:22:31]

User currently offlineSpacemanspiff From Maldives, joined Jun 2006, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2682 times:

best war?? Nuts you are!!!!


i am a weirdo from outer space
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21480 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2672 times:

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 13):
I've got to say that I support Rucker on this one. He's over there putting his ass on the line every day so that you can carry out your normal life.

And I think he does indeed deserve respect and our support for as far as we know doing his best and making a positive difference under extreme circumstances.

Still, I don't believe in some people's idea of "the designated hero is speaking - everybody else shut up!" I think that that isn't adequate either.

I think we should get intended or unintended insults out of the way and continue from there.


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2672 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):

It has little to do with that.

My original sidebar was referencing the fact that very few know we lose more soldiers in POVs than in war (as already displayed by a few a.netters). I never even MENTIONED Iraqis/Iraqi civilian women and children/Iraqi deaths/etc... and I certainly never mentioned anything regarding the more innocent Iraqi deaths equals more saved American lives.

It's total   . The comment was rude, it was based off of nothing previously mentioned in the thread, and he should apologize for it.

-UH60

[Edited 2006-09-11 08:33:49]

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21480 posts, RR: 54
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2656 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 17):
My original sidebar was referencing the fact that very few know we lose more soldiers in POVs than in war (as already displayed by a few a.netters). I never even MENTIONED Iraqis/Iraqi civilian women and children/Iraqi deaths/etc... and I certainly never mentioned anything regarding the more innocent Iraqi deaths equals more saved American lives.

No, of course you didn't. But I have not seen Padraig claim you did either - he merely took the introduced thought and led it to yet another, even more cynical conclusion.

If anybody did in fact base serious decisions on considerations like that, it would be highly despicable. But I don't think anybody insinuates that you or anybody else actually did that.

It is in the nature of abstract thoughts about death that they can easily get out of hand. In some specific contexts they may have their place, but in any decent conversation the disclaimers should either be implied very clearly or be made explicit where necessary.

I was under the assumption we all agreed on the purely theoretical nature of those calculations from start to finish. It is obvious they affect you more directly than any of us outside Iraq, but I don't think an insult was intended there. But Padraig will have to respond for himself in the end.


User currently offlineAAFLT1871 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2333 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2648 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 8):
I'm sorry - I should have worded that better. We lose more soldiers per year to MOTOR VEHICLE accidents than in combat.

Sadly, that can be said about any job profession. Example, how many flight attendants are killed in plane crashes compared to car crashes.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 17):
The comment was rude

Yes indeed



Where did everybody go?
User currently offlinePadraighaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2590 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):
I really think that was uncalled for and you owe me an appology.

Why? Becuase I used your own logic against you?

You wrote:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 4):
If you truly care about preventing the death of soldiers... why don't you help get more soldiers to take motorcycle safety courses?

and now when the stupidity of this remark is brought to light you say:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):
And don't throw the number of Iraqi deaths in my face, as though I am some how oblivious to them. I've seen more dead than I care to talk about, I've cried tears over the bodies of Americans and Iraqis.

To me these are incongrous, and the motor vehicle statistic seems like an attempt to spin the costs of being in Iraq for political and pro-military reasons.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):
So please don't talk to me like you know a damn thing about life over here. Your post was rude and very telling about your character.

And what does it say about your character when yor pet peev is to spin american fatalities in the war the way you did? As I've said already, this might just be a reflection of how enormous the american military machine is.

On a personal note, I believe you when you you write:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):
To even suggest that I place less emphasis on Iraqi civilians deaths than American deaths is insulting. You obviously know nothing about me. Because if you did, you would know about instances such as putting myself, and my helicopter, between wounded Iraqis and the insurgents. On numerous occasions, my crew and I have not thought twice about exposing ourselves to greater danger, so that we can shield the medics as they tend to injured civilians.

but this commendable/heroic behaviour is not a free pass to spin statistics.


User currently offlinePadraighaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2579 times:

Quoting NeilYYZ (Reply 13):
I've got to say that I support Rucker on this one. He's over there putting his ass on the line every day so that you can carry out your normal life. He went there whether he agreed with the reasons or not, because that's his job, to protect your country.

Support in what way? The original silly statistic I ridiculed? Would his motor-vehicle "analysis" be any more truthful or have less pro-administration spin if it came from someone over here?

Has free speech and dialog now degenerated to a level where anything, no matter how off the wall, that comes from the mouths of our troops, can't be commented on? He gave an absurd statistic; I used his logic to provide an equivalent statistic and instead of either laughing or analyzing he retreats into listing his heroic and caring actions (which, BTW, I am prepared to accept at face value.)

I criticized the argument, not the man.


User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2576 times:

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
The Best War Ever

This qualifies for asinine statement of the month.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 1):
Somehow, using "best" and "war" in the same sentence is simply absurd.

 checkmark 


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21480 posts, RR: 54
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2554 times:

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 21):
Has free speech and dialog now degenerated to a level where anything, no matter how off the wall, that comes from the mouths of our troops, can't be commented on? He gave an absurd statistic; I used his logic to provide an equivalent statistic and instead of either laughing or analyzing he retreats into listing his heroic and caring actions (which, BTW, I am prepared to accept at face value.)

I think you're getting a bit overboard here - I don't think UH ever intended any serious justification of the war or anything along those lines; I saw it more as some kind of "did you know?" piece of trivia - with very obvious caveats basically built-in.

Maybe you should both step your respective escalation levels down a notch or two.


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2490 times:

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 20):
Why? Becuase I used your own logic against you?

Hardly. People go around and talk about "saving the troops!" and how we must "stop the madness before another soldier dies!" But when I point out we lose more soldiers per year in car accidents... a lot of those same people suddenly don't give two shits about soldiers' lives. And Pad raig, when I pointed out this fact, I never even approach the subject of "war justification" or "American lives being more important than Iraqi lives." You pulled that jewel out of thin air all by yourself.

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 20):
the motor vehicle statistic seems like an attempt to spin the costs of being in Iraq for political and pro-military reasons.

Again - you know nothing of me. Because if you did, you'd know where I stand on this war, and you would know that I am certainly no microphone for spin.

You're only highlighting my original point: There are people - both Democratic and Republican - who couldn't care less about the lives of the men and women in uniform... because if they did, they'd take interest when I told them that we tragically lose nearly a thousand per year in car accidents. And they're only invoking the name of the dead, not out of compassion, but because it serves their own political arguments. THAT is the true spin of statistics.

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 20):
And what does it say about your character when yor pet peev is to spin american fatalities in the war the way you did?

You just keep tripping over your own ignorance, don't you? What does it say about my character when I point out the number one killer of service men and women? I dunno... maybe that I care enough to want to eliminate the number one threat to my brothers and sisters in arms?

--------------------------------------------

Padraig, this is the SECOND time, in one thread, you've talked about me without knowing a damn thing. You're comment... and now comments... were baseless, rude and insulting. I am still waiting for that apology, but considering how you've twice displayed the depth of your character, I am not holding my breathe for it.

And until you do - I'm through with you in this thread, or any other. You don't deserve my respect, let alone my time.

-UH60


25 Post contains images AirCop : There just some people whom one cannot have a discussion with. For a few years, some of us in the CHP was able to get a sweet deal, flying to Hawaii
26 SlamClick : He is clearly in northern Pakistan now. Might have been pretty much all along. Do you want us to invade Pakistan to get him? I'll take a one-word ans
27 Halls120 : Don't hold your breath. Padraig will debate you for awhile, until things aren't going his way. At which point he will declare his moral superiority o
28 Padraighaz : Well, I'm not sure I need, nor care about, character assessments from someone who's response to concern about our troops dying in Iraq, is an appeal
29 Padraighaz : OK, let me try and unring the bell here. The more I think about this, the more I don't like the way this is evolving. It's kind of dumb of me to expe
30 Post contains images UH60FtRucker : You know it's very interesting. The safety briefings have taken a noticable change lately. They're no longer those boring lectures coupled with black
31 Post contains images Halls120 : ÊÊ Let's see if I can translate the above. I'm much smarter and more erudite the most everyone here on Anet, so I need to remember that and be sens
32 Padraighaz : When I wrote: it was after discussing this with my wife who has been a counsellor in the past. I characterized the issue to her in terms where I said
33 AerospaceFan : Padraighaz, I've often found that when people start obsessing about the style of one's posts rather than their content, that's a good reason to questi
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