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AA. Sharon Summoned By Euro Court For Massacres  
User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Posted (12 years 10 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 981 times:

Check out the following link to the BBC:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1664000/1664443.stm




What do you think?


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (12 years 10 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 957 times:

Belguim has the EU presidency, its strange that when the eU is tyring to help solve the current crisis, it wants to drag up further wounds.

Why is belguim summoning sharon? did any belguim nationals die?(im not hot on this topic, i was very young at the time)

i think its a good idea that sharon is called to account and his role in this event can be brought out in the open, that why the peace process can move forward.

i just hope this thread doesnt turn into anti-zionism.



It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5032 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (12 years 10 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 958 times:

Go Canada,

It is not Belgium itself which is summoning Sharon. Since a couple of years, it is possible in Belgium to summon people from other countries for crimes against humanity, even if none of those crimes had anything to do with Belgium or Belgians, also when they happened outside Belgium. I believe the complaint in this case was filed by Palestinians living in Belgium (not sure, haven't read the article, as it doesn't seem to want to open...). If the courts judge there's a reason for him to be summoned, there's nothing the government can do about that. So Belgium having the EU presidency is just a coincidence.

One more thing: it's Belgium, not Belguim  Big grin


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (12 years 10 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 953 times:

I think it's a load of crap. Belgium has nothing to do with this, and this is just meddling in the affairs of another country. Why don't they "summon" Yassir Arafat, while their at it, for all the crimes he committed when he led the PLO all those years they were at war with Israel?

User currently offlineHepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (12 years 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 949 times:

If there's sufficient grounds for suspicion, that anyone committed crimes against humanity, then they should be summoned to answer to these charges, whether Sharon, Arafat or anyone else.

Dismissing this summons as a load of crap is to indulge in partiality. If there's credible suspicion, why shouldn't Sharon be called before the tribunal? What makes him different from anyone else under suspicion? If he's innocent, let him prove so with sound evidence and convincing arguments and he'll be let free.


User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5032 posts, RR: 43
Reply 5, posted (12 years 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 943 times:

Alpha 1,
Have you even read my post? If you would, you'd see how your post is total nonsense.


User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 33
Reply 6, posted (12 years 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 942 times:

>>>If he's innocent, let him prove so with sound evidence and convincing arguments and he'll
be let free.

Err, last time I checked it was the other way round - innocent until proven guilty/in dubio pro reo.

Daniel Smile


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (12 years 10 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 937 times:

Well, Scorpio, since I posted mine about the same time you did, I didn't get a change to read it. And guess what? It's still a load of crap. If Belgium feels that way, they should take it to the UN, not take it upon themselves to be the "conscience" of the world.

They've made it there so anyone with a gripe-real or imagined, can file "charges" against anyone. That's not law, that's a circus, in my opinion. I'm not a fan of Ariel Sharon, but he should just ignore it. You think Israel will extradite him to Belgium or something?


User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5032 posts, RR: 43
Reply 8, posted (12 years 10 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 926 times:

No, I don't expect Israel to extradite him, and it's pretty obvious nothing will come of this. Whenthis law was implemented, the idea was that criminals who committed crimes against humanity in other countries could be prosecuted by Belgian law, provided enough evidence is shown. Heads of state were not the target here, but it could be expected that charges would be laid upon some of them. I believe someone filed a similar complaint against Saddam Hussein, too.

They've made it there so anyone with a gripe-real or imagined, can file "charges" against anyone.

Well, that's how it always worked, also in the US. You can file charges against anyone at any time. The point is, of course, that these charges have to be accepted by the courts. If you have no proof whatsoever, your case will not be accepted. This case was accepted, so those who filed the complaint must have had a pretty strong case.

That's not law, that's a circus, in my opinion

No, a circus is when you can sue someone for $10 million because they spilled coffee over you.


User currently offlineLubcha132 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2776 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (12 years 10 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 917 times:

why don't they summon the muslim "fundies" (which they really aren't following the fundamentals of islam) too!

i think getting involved with israel shouldn't be one of the top agenda items.


User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5032 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (12 years 10 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 919 times:

Lubcha132,

why don't they summon the muslim "fundies" (which they really aren't following the fundamentals of islam) too!

Because apparently no-one filed a complaint? Again, it is NOT the Belgian government which is sueing Sharon. If you wish to have the muslim fundamentalists summoned, you too can file a complaint.


User currently offlineTwaneedsnohelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 906 times:

This Belgian law is pretty incrdible. That anyone anywhere can bring Belgian criminal charges on anyone anywhere for an event that occurred anywhere?

Who does Belgium think they are?

Anyway, I'll agree Sharon is no Santa Clause, he plays by Hama Rules, which as Tom Friedman puts it, is no rules at all. But he is one in a long line of Middle East tribal-like leaders who has. Others include, late Syrian President Hafez al-Assad, Iraqi President Saddam Husseim al-Tikriti, late Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel, Phalangist leader Eli Hobeika, and Arafat.

One needs to understand the tribal orientation, kill or be killed Middle East mentality before comparing it to the laws of Omaha, Nebraska.


User currently offlineDelta-flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (12 years 10 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 900 times:

The Belgians are summoning the wrong person. The massacres were committed by Lebanese Christian militiamen, not by the Israeli troops under Sharon's command. Sharon was found by Israel to be indirectly liable only to the extent that he could have foreseen this event and may have been able to prevent it. That is how tough Israeli standards are!

The belgian court scenario, of course, should not be surprising nor unexpected. Christians kill Muslims and Jews get the blame -- so, what's new?

Cheers,
Pete


User currently offlineFSPilot747 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 3599 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (12 years 10 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 888 times:

"Sharon was found by Israel to be indirectly liable only to the extent that he could have foreseen this event and may have been able to prevent it. That is how tough Israeli standards are!"

-really it's very basic common sense to realize that Israel is going to be supportive of the man who killed hundreds of innocent people for the country. That's like saying, "The Taliban did an investigation and found that Osama bin Laden is innocent of all crimes brought against him." Same thing.

take care,
-FSPilot747



User currently offlineDelta-flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (12 years 10 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 881 times:

-really it's very basic common sense to realize that Israel is going to be supportive of the man who killed hundreds of innocent people for the country.

That's not at all what I meant, and upon rereading what I wrote, I can see that I may not have expressed myself clearly. Israel was indeed very critical of Sharon -- I would have expected Israel to find Sharon totally blameless, but to their credit, they did not.

Now, I challenge anyone to show me an Arab government that has ever laid blame (however small) upon one of their leaders for killing Israelis, or for that matter, any "infidels". The opposite usually is the case: they are elevated to sainthood. The Israeli government did a very righteous and honorable act by at least finding some fault with Sharon's actions (or lack thereof) that led to the massacres.

When I said that Israeli standards are tough, I was NOT being facetious. They are, as compared to other countries in the region, and the world expects that. Let's face it, we all expect Israel to behave differently from Arabs, don't we?

Pete


User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (12 years 10 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 874 times:

I think that it's odd that some of those who actually commited this crime are members of the Syrian-imposed Lebanese government now. I'd like to know when they will be "summoned."

Aaron G.


User currently offlineDelta-flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (12 years 10 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 873 times:

Aaron, they will never be summoned. The Belgians suck up to Arabs and will do nothing to offend them. Everything is the fault of Jews, you should know that by now.

I am sorry to sound so cynical, but realizing this at an early age will perhaps spare you some disappointment later in life.

Cheers,
Pete


User currently offlineLY772 From Israel, joined Aug 2001, 1340 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (12 years 10 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 871 times:

If Sharon is "guilty" of bombing Palestinian towns after suicide attacks, then I guess that means that Yasser Arafat isn't so innocent letting all those bombers into Israel. Yes, Israel has killed a lot of Palestinians. But put yourself in this situation: You have a M-16 and Palestinians are throwing rocks at you. What are you going to do to prevent them from getting you?? Oh, and not to mention that some Palestinians have guns that Israel sold to the Palestinian army, but instead Yasser Arafat gave them to the Islamic Jihad and Hamas. If you want to ask someone if Yasser Arafat and the Palestinians are innocent, try Jaffa beach at a nice club where 17-18 years olds hang out. Try a family pizza parlor, Sbarro, in the heart of Jerusalem...during rush hour. Try all the other attacks, and take a look at how many Palestinians get arrested every day when they try to enter Israel.

User currently offlineWhistler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (12 years 10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 854 times:

The Palestinians don't have the balls to go after the IDF in a real battle, so they blow Israeli kids and Teens into little bits. Like that will somehow help their cause...

User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5032 posts, RR: 43
Reply 19, posted (12 years 10 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 852 times:

Delta-flyer,

Aaron, they will never be summoned. The Belgians suck up to Arabs and will do nothing to offend them. Everything is the fault of Jews, you should know that by now.

This yet again clearly shows that you don't seem to get it here, so I will repeat it once more, in words which all of you understand: BELGIUM IS A DEMOCRACY WITH SEPARATION OF THE POWERS. THIS MEANS THAT WHATEVER A COURT DECIDES, THE GOVERNMENT CAN NOT UNDO. The government is not the one who has filed charges against Mr. Sharon. The charges were filed by mainly Palestinians, many of them victims of the events which took place all those years ago. The courts (the COURTS, NOT the government) have decided there is enough reason for Mr. Sharon to be summoned. This means they have looked into the case filed by these people, have looked at their evidence, and have decided that these people actually do have a case.

So, Mr. Sharon is summoned by the Belgian government. Not because that's what they want, but because that's what the courts TOLD them to do.

Everything is the fault of Jews, you should know that by now.

That has got to be the biggest pile of crap I have EVER read on these forums (and believe me, I've read quite a bit of crap here...). I actually feel quite insulted that you accuse my government of racism.

The Belgians suck up to Arabs and will do nothing to offend them.

What basis do you have to say this? My guess is NONE.

Twaneedsnohelp,

This Belgian law is pretty incrdible. That anyone anywhere can bring Belgian criminal charges on anyone anywhere for an event that occurred anywhere?

Only when mass murder and crimes against humanity are involved. But the law, however idealistic it may be (the idea, I guess, being that these kinds of criminals should not be able to go away unpunished, even if their own government doesn't do anything about them), is probably not realistic, and I too highly doubt that anyone will ever be convicted and sentenced under this law.


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (12 years 10 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 850 times:

FSPilot747:

Comparing Sharon to OBL, and Israel to the Taliban. How typical


Anyways, does any of you honestly believes that Sharon would be treated fairly in a Western European court? Give me a break!


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineFSPilot747 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 3599 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (12 years 10 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 844 times:

"Anyways, does any of you honestly believes that Sharon would be treated fairly in a Western European court? Give me a break!"

-What, you wan't him to go to an Israeli court? That's just like sending Osama bin Laden to a Taliban court. Use your brain.

-FSPilot747




User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (12 years 10 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 840 times:

I don't "wan't" him to be tried anywhere!  Big thumbs up

LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineWhistler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (12 years 10 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 837 times:

Well trying Sharon and ignoring Yasser Arafat, etc etc is like trying that Mullah Omar dude and ignoring Osama Bin Laden...

... so there  Laugh out loud.


User currently offlineDelta-flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (12 years 10 months 3 days ago) and read 831 times:

Scorpio, That has got to be the biggest pile of crap I have EVER read on these forums (and believe me, I've read quite a bit of crap here...). I actually feel quite insulted that you accuse my government of racism.

First, I will ask you not to use such offensive language. Would you say this to my face?

I did not accuse your government of racism. But I do not have my head in the sand, either. I see where the western European allegiances are heading.

As far as calling my opinion crap, I have not forgotten what happened to my parents, grandparents and other relatives in Europe during WWII. My opinion is based on fact. I may have exaggerated about Belgians "sucking up", but I am not too far off the mark.

Cheers,
Pete


User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 25, posted (12 years 10 months 3 days ago) and read 829 times:

prehaps belgium should be more bothered about sorting out its carcass of an airline industry before it trys to pay world statemen!

in fact this isnt the only time belgium as acted like its the head of the UN, a few weeks back tony blair invited the german and frnech leaders to dinner to discuss the war on terrorism, since both at that stage we planning to send in troops, tony blair as being one of the chief leaders in this war thought it was a excellent idea.

What happened, belgium started to cry because it had the presidency of the EU and expected to be at this dinner, even though this action has nothing to do with the EU and no EU peacekeeping troops are involved but no belgium burst into tears and because belgium moaned, the rets of europe moaned too and the dinner was a diplomatic disaster because of belgiums whinging, seems they are quite good at that.

as for the law which allows non-belgiums to try other non-belgiums in court in belgium for offences not occuring in belgium  Nuts  Nuts  Nuts  Nuts  Nuts  Nuts  Nuts  Nuts  Nuts

i know i said its a good idea for sharon to be called to account but the more i think about it i feel that belgium is not the place to do this. If sharon is gulity of 'war crimes' then why hasnt the hague prosecuted him when its quite happy to try for everybody else?

as for scorpio, enough said.



It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
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