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Dear Western World;  
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3776 times:

This is the Muslim world here, and we'd like to say some things to you too.

You guys seem to think that things have been tense between us only because of what we have done, and that we are somehow jelous and envious of you, hence the hatred towards America.

Now, firstly, I would like to ask the Western world, especially America, whether you actually believe yourself when you say its because we are somehow jealous of you. You guys are constantly obsessing 9/11, and going on about your war on terror, let us ask you some questions and get some understanding over why you seem to think that we are wrong no matter what we do.

First of all, on the subject of 9/11, Americans continue to believe the myth that the Arab and Muslim world was silent after the attacks. Well, i've got news for you: even the extremist organisations Hamas and Hezbollah condemned the attacks, Hamas made all of its schools give 2 minutes of silence on the 12th of September and Hezbollah condemned the attacks and Al Qaeda. Every single Muslim and Arab leader and significant cleric spoke out against 9/11, yet nobody remembers that. And that video you guys keep bringing up about the candy being given out? Not only was it proved false, it is exteremley ironic that you keep bringing that up yet you guys forget about the 15 Israelis that were clapping and cheering on the roof of an NYC building during the attack. Where is the anger towards those 15 Israelis?

Second of all, you guys say your tired of us killing you, threatning you, etc. How can the West tell us this with a straight face after it watched Israel kill 1,000 civilians and did nothing to intervene for an entire month? How can the West say this after it has ignored the deaths that have occured in the past 6 years in the Palestinian territories, which far surpass the casualties of 9/11? Most importantly, how can the West actually say that we are threatning it and killing in it while it is the West that funds Israel, the West that started Islamic extremism, and the West that is occupying land in the Muslim world or giving support to those that do? Do you guys think Islamic extremism started out of thin air? Who created Bin Laden, then stopped supporting him and allowed things to get out of hand?

You guys say that everything has to lead to violence in our part of the world, I find this pretty ironic coming from the West. The most significant player in all of this is obviously the USA, and to the US, I ask this - you are pointing the finger at us for being violent? After you have invaded a country for no reason and caused it to completley collapse, and you have supported a country that has killed thousands of Muslims unconditionally?

Also, to the US, you want to talk about violent history and resorting to history? You guys need to look no further than at your own history. You claim that we have to resort to violence with everyone we disagree with, well, I beg to differ: the US, for the past century, has resorted to violence with every single country that has seriously challenged the US's hold on its economy or has someone been seen as a "threat". It started with Hawaii at the end of the 19th century, when the Hawaiian queen was overthrown, and in the past century we have seen coups and intervention in many, many countries, including the Phillippines, Nicagura, Cuba, Iran, Vietnam, Chile, Guatemala, Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan and Iraq - those are just the ones with direct involvement. In countries such as Guatemala, coups were held due to ensure American multi-national companies could continue to operate, and in others such as Iran, it was because they were misled into believing the country was a threat. For a country with such a long history of intervention through violence, it is highly ironic that you would point any fingers at us. How many nations have the Muslim world been responsible for attacking compared to the Western world?

Now, you guys say that you want to live in peace, I don't see how the West isn't living in peace. Your idea of living in peace is to not hear any more news reports about terrorism, the Palestinian idea of living in peace is to not live in fear of a bomb falling on their heads, or having a child or sibling die. The Iraqi idea of peace is to not have their family killed by a militia. The Lebanese idea of peace is to not have an aircraft bomb their home. If you truly wanted peace, you would not reelect George Bush, you would not remain silent while 1,000 were murdered in Lebanon or while 4,000 Palestinians were being murdered, and you would actually call for your countries to not blindly support Israel. America, if you want peace, why are you paying for the weapons being used to kill Palestinians and Lebanese?

Finally, if you guys think we like the kind of Osama Bin Laden and Zarqawi, you are completley mistaken, and have embraced a stereotype that is completely mistaken. We here in the Muslim world don't hate you because your Christian, we don't hate you because you live better lives than most of us, and we sure as hell don't hate you for being different from us. Most of the hatred coming from the Middle East is due to how you guys act, and when your representitives convey the same messages of hate, people will get up and react to that.

-The Muslim World

117 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3752 times:

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
If you truly wanted peace, you would not reelect George Bush,

I just knew somehow Bush would get the blame . . . .

FYI, he can't be re-elected . . . moot point.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
while it is the West that funds Israel

And Egypt . . .

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
you would not remain silent while 1,000 were murdered in Lebanon

I don't think the west remained silent - and there was intervention . . . by many western countries - the US included - through diplomacy that eventually led to the cease fire . . .

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
America, if you want peace, why are you paying for the weapons being used to kill Palestinians and Lebanese?

And the weapons sold to Lebanon, and Egypt, and Pakistan, and Turkey . . .

It's called free enterprise.

Good Past QR . . . better than the earlier one by PadwhatshisnametheUShater.
I'll come back later when I'm more awake and have more time and pick at it a bit more.


User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3741 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
I just knew somehow Bush would get the blame . . . .

FYI, he can't be re-elected . . . moot point.

I was referring to his re-election in 2004, which was after the Iraq war started, and I am not blaming him completley.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
And Egypt . . .

Exactly. Egypt is a corrupt dictatorship which does not allow any freedom, yet it gets full support from the US, which further angers people.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
I don't think the west remained silent - and there was intervention . . . by many western countries - the US included - through diplomacy that eventually led to the cease fire . . .

You quoted me out of context - I said for a whole month. The US refused to even condemn the Qana attacks, and while diplomacy did eventually get through, it took a month for the world to react properly, and by the end of that month Lebanon as a shaterred country.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
And the weapons sold to Lebanon, and Egypt, and Pakistan, and Turkey . . .

Lebanon (as a country), Egypt, Pakistan and Turkey have not attacked anyone recently, and have not been responsible for thousands of deaths.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3712 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
You quoted me out of context

If I had quoted your entire paragraph, my reply would be the same.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
Lebanon (as a country), Egypt, Pakistan and Turkey have not attacked anyone recently,

Irrelevent.

Defense of a country requires weapons and weapons must be bought/sold.

I can't think that Japan has attacked anyone in the last 60 years either - but they have a standing Army, Navy and Air Force.

Hmmm doesn't Jordan maintain a standing Army and Air Force? They don't go about attacking anyone either - should they stop weapons procurement??


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3701 times:

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
You guys are constantly obsessing 9/11,

Well, it only killed 3000 people, QR. It only destroyed two of the finest buildings in the nation, QR. It only damaged the Pentagon, QR. It was only AN ACT OF WAR on the United States.

There are, if you will, certain "life-changing" events in the history of any nation. We've had our Civil War, Pearl Harbor, the assassination of President Kennedy, and 9/11. If you think such events will not change a nation, then you don't know enough about the situation, my friend.

I do agree we obsess too much with it sometime, but neither should it be forgotten, because those Arabs who perpertrated it on us, have said they want to kill more Americans in such a fashion.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
How can the West tell us this with a straight face after it watched Israel kill 1,000 civilians and did nothing to intervene for an entire month?

Talk to Hezbollah, QR. They deliberately started this conflict, and, when you do so, you take a combatants chances. Lebanon could have solved that problem long ago, but chose not to, at the behest of their masters in Damascus.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
You guys say that everything has to lead to violence in our part of the world

A CARTOON led to violence; The Pope quoting words led to violence. And you want me to take you seriously? Everytime someone says they don't like Islam, that part of the world goes banana's, burns American and Israeli flags, screams "Death to America"; pulls out posters of nuts like Khomeini and bin Laden.

The problem is, what I said is the truth. There is such a violent tendancy among many in the Islamic world these days, as to be frightening. That's why I contend that it's the Islamic world pushing the envelope on conflict, not the west, Iraq notwithstanding.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
you are pointing the finger at us for being violent?

Yes, we are, and it'll keep pointing at you. 9/11; USS Cole; Embassy bombings; London; Madrid, etc etc etc. Again, wake p to the reality.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
including the Phillippines

We gave the Philippines its independence, dude. And when they asked us to close or military bases there, we complied. So much for that.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Afghanistan

Are you denying our legitimate right to war on the nation that protected those who warred on us on 9/11/2001, QR? Afghanistan was and is a perfectly legitimate conflict. Unfortunately, our stupid president took his eye off the ball on that one to go after boogey men that didn't exist in Iraq.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Finally, if you guys think we like the kind of Osama Bin Laden and Zarqawi, you are completley mistaken, and have embraced a stereotype that is completely mistaken.

No, it is not. And, if it is, you have a funny way of showing it, because you then turn around and support other creeps just as evil as he and Al Qaeda are.

The point is this: the Arab/Islamic world, right now, does NOT want to live and let live with the West. It wants the West to embrace Islam as its faith, which I refuse to do, not out of hatred for that faith, but because I have my own that I believe is The Way, The Truth and The Light; they want the West to accept the law of the Koran in our lands, and I refuse to do that. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Keep you law in your lands. They want the U.S. to simply abandon friends and allies, so those friends can be destroyed. I refuse that, as it's morally wrong, and you don't do that to a long-standing friend.

There can be peace in the region, but more and more, I fear it will take a cataclysmic clash of arms to accomplish, and, in that scenario, the Islamic and Arab worlds will be the big losers. If it comes to that, you only have yourselves to blame.


User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5018 posts, RR: 44
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3685 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
I'll come back later when I'm more awake and have more time and pick at it a bit more.

...and therein lies the base of the problem: the desire from both sides to pick at each other's points, and try to prove them wrong. The perfect way to never let this situation end, ever.

Let's take this post, and the one made by Falcon, for what they really are: the viewpoints of both sides in this conflict. Even though we might not agree completely with the one for 'our' side (I know I think both make some good points, and both state things I do not agree with) it is clear that, on the whole, they represent both sides quite well.

Now, instead of picking at the posts, both of them, to try and prove the points made there wrong, why don't we compare both views here. It illustrates just how big the difference in perception is between our two worlds. With similar letters from posters of both sides, we have a perfect opportunity for that right here.

Keep in mind that neither of these two letters was written objectively: both were influenced by the respective posters' cultures, societies and prejudices (and that's not meant as an insult, we are all prejudiced to a point). Does that make one of them right, and the other wrong? No. Is there a point in picking at either of them to prove a point? No. Why? Because no-one here is going to convince the other of their right.

So let's just take these for what they are, and draw our conclusions from them. I for one, after reading both of them, am no longer wondering why our two worlds are close to grabbing the other by the throat: with views so radically different, I'm actually surprised it took so long.

...or we could just continue ripping at each other's points like little kids.

[Edited 2006-09-19 15:22:51]

User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3685 times:

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
This is the Muslim world here, and we'd like to say some things to you too.

Could you wait a moment while I step behind a bomb proof wall?

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Now, firstly, I would like to ask the Western world, especially America, whether you actually believe yourself when you say its because we are somehow jealous of you.

I don't care what the lame excuse of the week is. Stop being radical nut jobs who think blowing up civilians is a great way to make an imaginary friend in ethereal space happy enough to donate virgins to you.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Americans continue to believe the myth that the Arab and Muslim world was silent after the attacks.

Silent? Of course not. Most of us remember the video of Muslims cheering after 9/11.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Second of all, you guys say your tired of us killing you, threatening you, etc. How can the West tell us this with a straight face after it watched Israel kill 1,000 civilians and did nothing to intervene for an entire month?

And what exactly was the rest of the world doing to intervene?

Do I see another damned if you do, damned if you don't, no win scenario for the US?

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Also, to the US, you want to talk about violent history and resorting to history?

No, I really don't care what happened last century, or last decade. I live now, and won't apologize or explain what people who lived in the past did.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Finally, if you guys think we like the kind of Osama Bin Laden and Zarqawi, you are completley mistaken, and have embraced a stereotype that is completely mistaken.

Want to explain how he keeps getting funding and shelter then?

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Most of the hatred coming from the Middle East is due to how you guys act, and when your representitives convey the same messages of hate, people will get up and react to that.

My neighbors are the biggest A**hole pricks ever to set foot on the planet. I hate the very existence of them. I'm not about to blow their house up, chop off theirs heads, or burn likenesses of them. That's the difference. I'm civil about my differences with them. Can the Muslim world say the same thing about the west?


User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6304 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3674 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):

I don't think the west remained silent - and there was intervention . . . by many western countries - the US included - through diplomacy that eventually led to the cease fire . . .

Come on, you can not take a straight face and say that the West jumped at the chance of making peace. The West LOVED the idea of getting rid of Hezbollah, and it didn't matter it more kids than Israeli soldiers died in the end...and Hezbollah is still as strong as ever, if not more so.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
You guys are constantly obsessing 9/11,

Well, it only killed 3000 people, QR

Look, 9/11 was a horribl event, and I am saying that as an American citizen...it deserves its place in the history books, and will always be remembered. But we cannot continue to blame everything on 9/11...eventually it will be the year 2030, and than what? Can we still blame everything on it?


User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 851 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3671 times:

Huh?

"15 israeli was cheering and clapping their hands on a NYC roof during the attack"

Never heard about it, where did you read that?

Micke//  Confused



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3665 times:

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 5):
Now, instead of picking at the posts, both of them, to try and prove the points made there wrong, why don't we compare both views here.

Don't get your panites in a wad . . . that's exactly what I'm going to do when I get some rest . . .

Quoting SW733 (Reply 7):
But we cannot continue to blame everything on 9/11...eventually it will be the year 2030, and than what? Can we still blame everything on it?

Hmm, as I recall, there was still some pretty sour feelings in a lot of people about December 7th, 1941 for a good 30-40 years . . .

I will not forget 9/11 ever. And anyone that does or thinks we ought to 'let bygones be bygones' needs to have their head examined . . . if that means that in the year 2030, there is still a 9/11 remembrance every 5 year anniversary then I'm fine with it.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 7):
The West LOVED the idea of getting rid of Hezbollah,

Damn right . . . another terrorist organization eliminated.


User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5018 posts, RR: 44
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3653 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Don't get your panites in a wad

Don't worry, I'm not. I wasn't attacking you, you just happened to be the one who replied to this post first. I was simply referring to the fact that 'picking at' the other's points to prove a point is usually all that happens in a thread like this, and it serves no purpose.


User currently offlineFDXMECH From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3624 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
Exactly. Egypt is a corrupt dictatorship which does not allow any freedom, yet it gets full support from the US, which further angers people.

Hmmm. Saddam was an evil dictater and now he's gone - angers peope.
Hmmm. Egypt, a corrupt dictatorship that gets support - angers people.



You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3598 times:

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
even the extremist organisations Hamas and Hezbollah condemned the attacks,

Uh-huh. With a wink and a nudge....gimme a break! You buy that crap?

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Every single Muslim and Arab leader and significant cleric spoke out against 9/11, yet nobody remembers that.

Document please. And again, if you think there was a hint of sincerety in half of those so-called sympathies, I have some swampland in Louisiana to sell you.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
the West that started Islamic extremism



Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Most of the hatred coming from the Middle East is due to how you guys act, and when your representitives convey the same messages of hate, people will get up and react to that.

QUIT PROJECTING!!

This is exactly the crux of the problem....blaming someone else! Stop it! Get over it. Deal with Islam's failings, the trappings of the radical imams, clerics and Islamofascists among you instead of blaming the West, America, Israel, etc....


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17363 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3594 times:

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
How can the West tell us this with a straight face after it watched Israel kill 1,000 civilians and did nothing to intervene for an entire month?

Idunno...you tell us? More Muslims have died at the hands of other Muslims than at the hands of "the West" so "you" should be an expert on the topic.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3581 times:

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Every single Muslim and Arab leader and significant cleric spoke out against 9/11, yet nobody remembers that. And that video you guys keep bringing up about the candy being given out? Not only was it proved false, it is exteremley ironic that you keep bringing that up yet you guys forget about the 15 Israelis that were clapping and cheering on the roof of an NYC building during the attack. Where is the anger towards those 15 Israelis?

First of all-> I stood at the American embassy on the eve of 9/11 2001 here in Copenhagen, and I watched a car of Palestinians screaming past all of us sobbing and flower laying and candle lighting people, screaming yaaaaay and waving a Palestinian flag... And this is here in Copenhagen! So do not give me that shit, so many have spoken about the US finally getting their asses kicked... Even non-Muslims!

Secondly-> The last sentence is absurd, I really mean that!!

Last but not least, if the views expressed in your post are your honest opinions, and not just a provocative response to Falcon84's thread, I must say that I give up on you, I really mean that.

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3578 times:

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Finally, if you guys think we like the kind of Osama Bin Laden and Zarqawi, you are completley mistaken

Then there should be a Muslim coalition army scouring Afghanistan and Pakistan to find Bin Laden. They should go get him and deliver him either to a world court such as Den Haag or to an Arab court for justice. This army, being Muslims, would not defile your beautiful countries as our western armies do by their mere presence.

Clearly what he did was unlawful. If it offends you - go get him. You can certainly afford it.

If it did not offend you quit lying about how it did.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineCheckraiser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3571 times:

If the Islamic world really did condemn terrorism Bin Laden would have been handed over on a silver platter by now.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
And that video you guys keep bringing up about the candy being given out? Not only was it proved false

False? I suppose the Jews running Hollywood quickly produced that little nugget for our viewing pleasure.  sarcastic 


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3564 times:

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 16):
If the Islamic world really did condemn terrorism Bin Laden would have been handed over on a silver platter by now.

Another good point.

If SOOO many Muslims condemned 9/11, and denounce bin Laden, then why hasn't someone dropped a dime on him? A Pakistani perhaps? Or an Afghan?


User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3547 times:

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
We here in the Muslim world don't hate you because your Christian, we don't hate you because you live better lives than most of us, and we sure as hell don't hate you for being different from us. Most of the hatred coming from the Middle East is due to how you guys act, and when your representitives convey the same messages of hate, people will get up and react to that.

I note that you don't deny hating us. We get that, loud and clear. Your hatred obscures any other message you may wish to convey.



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3541 times:

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 18):
I note that you don't deny hating us. We get that, loud and clear. Your hatred obscures any other message you may wish to convey.

 checkmark  Well put, well put!

Quoting Slider (Reply 17):
Another good point.

If SOOO many Muslims condemned 9/11, and denounce bin Laden, then why hasn't someone dropped a dime on him? A Pakistani perhaps? Or an Afghan?

I actually think, people hate helping or aiding or doing anything that has anything to do with the US so much, that they just would look the other, were Ossama and co. pass them by.

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3534 times:

Another critical omission in your message. Not once did you write the words:

"Israel has the right to exist."


Until you can it appears that getting along with you requires that we permit you to anihilate Israel.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5018 posts, RR: 44
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3516 times:

Oh well, I tried. Please continue the 'I'm right, you're wrong' and the 'it's your fault more than our fault' BS.  Yeah sure

User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3513 times:

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 21):
Oh well, I tried. Please continue the 'I'm right, you're wrong' and the 'it's your fault more than our fault' BS

I understand what you mean, but it is the values that are colliding and it is the view angles which are causing strife... We cannot ignore it, because it is the main root to our conflict and the essense of why we argue.

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6304 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3495 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Damn right . . . another terrorist organization eliminated.

I understand this, but we also have to realize that they are a legitimate and elected political party in Lebanon...it as if an outside country came on and tried to overthrow the Republicans...and I know you are one, so you'll probably try to have me hanged for saying this, but many in the Eastern world, some in my "US-friendly" country included (and many many more in the Middle East) believe the Republicans are a terrorist organization...trust me, I've been to the Middle East, I've talked to them, and if I would have mentioned I was an American citizen as well as a Namibian one, I may have not have made it out based on how angry they became during our discussions.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Hmm, as I recall, there was still some pretty sour feelings in a lot of people about December 7th, 1941 for a good 30-40 years . . .

Absolutely, but how long did the WAR last after December 7th? About 4 years...just about as long as this one...but guess what the difference is, we aren't going to win in dominant fashion like we did in WW2. We wont topple the terrorists like we did the Germans and Japanese, and when the count of US soldiers killed starts to reach the number that were killed on 9/11, the reaons this whole war started in the first place, not to mention the other Coalition troops and loads of innocent civilians (almost 50,000 in Iraq alone), we have to SERIOUSLY start thinking about what the next logical step is - we can't keep going gung ho for years and years saying we'll kick their butts, because so far, it isn't happening, at least not to the level it should considering the supremecy in the world of the US military



ANCFlyer, I accept your opinions, and I love that we can have an open discussion and argument about this, I simply disagree with your view, as you do with mine. Please don't feel that I am trying to knock your beliefs, or in any way think you are wrong, idiotic, or anything like that - because I don't. I shy away from political discussions on A.Net for the reason that I shy away from them offline - I don't like sharing my views often, I love keeping them to myself, but I just had to join in on this one. Cheers


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 28
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3495 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
Could you wait a moment while I step behind a bomb proof wall?

RRROOOOFFFFLLLLLL!!!!!

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
How can the West tell us this with a straight face after it watched Israel kill 1,000 civilians and did nothing to intervene for an entire month?

And your point is? What did your people do to get whacked on? If you piss on my house, do you expect me not to piss on yours? Plenty of warning was issued by Israel, and they were provoked with the kidnapping of their soldiers, that were in their own border! Someone walked across the border into Israel, and took them hostage. What did you expect? Israel to sit back, and negotiate with terrorists? NO WAY! Give Israel credit for dropping leaflets and warning individuals to leave or face an attack.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
How can the West say this after it has ignored the deaths that have occured in the past 6 years in the Palestinian territories, which far surpass the casualties of 9/11?

So I guess we should be thankful that we only lost a few thousand in a terrorist attack on 9/11? Should I tell the families of 9/11 your bullshit sob story about how many people died in 6 years in Palestinian territories? Better yet, you hop on a plane and tell them your sob story. Make sure you get a life insurance policy first, and put my name on it!!  Smile

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
Second of all, you guys say your tired of us killing you,

You use the word "us" and "we", and you use it often. And you tried to preach about how well maintained and innocent your religion is? You tried to tell me your religion was about peace? You stated that many times that it was a few thousand that chose to walk on the dark side in another posting. Oh man, you have to be with them dude.

Quoting QR332 (Thread starter):
We here in the Muslim world don't hate you because your Christian, we don't hate you because you live better lives than most of us, and we sure as hell don't hate you for being different from us. Most of the hatred coming from the Middle East is due to how you guys act, and when your representitives convey the same messages of hate, people will get up and react to that.

So you hate Americans! Why didn't you just say it? Why write a long letter beating around the bush? Damn, get to the point, will ya? I knew you did, just by many of your previous posts. Again, you use the word "we", which I could look at as muslims in whole. Right? If I said we hated you, I guess you could say that "we" being the United States. Right?

Gotta run, I have to raise my beautiful American flag a notch or two higher. And gotta go buy an Israeli flag! You have given me an even bigger reason to support Israel! THANKS BUDDY!

Lots of love and best wishes,

Signed,

The Infadel!
AKA: F9Animal/Infadel



I Am A Different Animal!!
25 Post contains images Scorpio : And so, in order to overcome it, you... argue in circles some more? Wonderful
26 ME AVN FAN : he already WAS re-elected, it now is his second term, if I am not mistaken no, the USA carefully extended the matter as long as possible and for week
27 ME AVN FAN : a really great post here ! congratulations !
28 Jamesag96 : This thread is pure comedy gold. If anyone needs to understand the fog through which the Muslim world lives you need look no further than here. Bravo
29 Scorpio : ^^ Behold the reason why this conflict will never be solved. The 'they're wrong, we're right' attitude, which prevails on both sides of the fence. Te
30 ME AVN FAN : it just is the question where that fog is. You think it is on the other side while it possibly is just a few miles off the Eastern Seaboard of the US
31 Post contains images Luv2fly :
32 Post contains images Scorpio : ^^ Thanks for illustrating that, indeed, this 'we're right, you're wrong' attitude prevails on both sides...
33 JamesAg96 : I didn't read Falcons post so I have no reference point, I only read Q's post and as I stated it is comedy gold. I live in a world where I believe th
34 SlamClick : There are very few ideas that are absolutely unacceptable in the modern world. Almost everything can be negotiated, moderated, compromised. The one ab
35 Post contains images MaverickM11 : While the Arab/Muslim world did their utmost to disarm and wind down Hizbullah before, during, and after the fact....wait...no that didn't happen
36 FrancoBlanco : Usually I try to stay out of political discussions on A.net, but QR332's post deserves some support. The truth is the truth. Sebastian P.S. I won't po
37 Windshear : You cannot ignore a conflict... come on! Not unless you stand no where, opinion wise, where I guess you stand, or try to stand anyways... But listen
38 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : oh sure, and those who do NOT agree with what you "know" as right are against you ? didn't we hear something thelike from somebody else before ? is t
39 GSM763 : OK I will make no bones about the fact that I do not support Israel's world views but I will happily agree that. OK we're done with that. 9/11 was a t
40 Post contains images Windshear : Yes your truth, lets not forget that... Boaz.
41 Scorpio : Whoever said anything about 'ignoring' anything? All I said was use the opportunity to compare the two viewpoints, both of which contain truths and b
42 ME AVN FAN : he wrote "THE truth" !
43 Windshear : True, very true, in fact I have many times thought to my self, why we all in here engage in these discussions, but I think we need the confrontation,
44 Lnglive1011yyz : I simply cannot believe that ANYONE even responded to this thread. I am entirely disgusted with the original post. All the original poster has shown i
45 JamesAg96 : By default....yes. If I am right, you are wrong it's really simple to understand. The OP started with "The West" and then mentioned the U.S. But that
46 Mandala499 : To the "western world" or its claimants, let me express my view on behalf of my country, a secular nation that happens to have the largest Muslim popu
47 Post contains images RJpieces : When I first joined A.net, I think I was considered somewhat of an extremist for my hardline views on Islamic militants...But it's refreshing to see
48 Post contains images QR332 : Nice to see so many people jumping up on the defensive, and, as usual, ignoring the bulk of my post. But when you sell it to a country knowing the wea
49 CastleIsland : You've been trying hard to get your point across to people, Scorpio! I've long believed that there is little point in having an opinion about an issu
50 Braybuddy : Excellent post QR332, and congrats for not descending to the level of insult found in the "Dear Islamic World" thread.
51 Miamiair : Like Iran's quest for nuclear weapons, after all they have stated they will wipe Israel off the face of the earth. QR, your hatred just wafts from yo
52 EK156 : Waow.... I have never seen so much one sided and one minded opinions on this thread that do not take the chance of looking deep into the matter but ju
53 Post contains links CF188A : I am not American, but many Canadians died on that day UNJUSTLY. For our nation, that is grounds to enter a war and or politely kill those responsibl
54 Emirates773ER : Excellent post QR332, thanks for reminding me why I have you in my RR list.
55 Post contains images MaverickM11 : No, of course not. We'll ignore Muslim atrocities so we can focus all our attention and hate on the West.
56 Halcyon : You hit the nail on the head. The Arab world certainly does hate us. It goes beyond a dislike to a flat-out hatred. This is one emotion that perhaps
57 Gilligan : Yikes, set an arbitrary number of kia that when reached dictates we pull out? I can just see the recruiting poster for that one. What a terrible idea
58 SlamClick : Like hell we are. Not one Muslim has said, as a declaration of his own opinion, that Israel has a right to exist. For the western world to get along
59 F9Animal : I have to agree with ya on this. But, someone has to fight the "war on forum", and there are a select few that can take on this challenge! LETS ROLL!
60 Kalakaua : Umm... Our country faced unprovoked attacks by Muslim terrorists, known as Barbary Pirates, SINCE 1776!!![Edited 2006-09-20 03:56:04]
61 Aaron747 : *sigh*.... I'll just quote a great patriot by the name of Pat Buchanan...written 9/20/01 What took place last Tuesday was an atrocity. What is coming
62 Blrsea : Good post. Unfortunately, many muslims don't believe that we are fighting a common enemy. JIhadis continue to recieve support from countries like Sau
63 Pbottenb : Mandala - Thank you. These are difficult times. Once again you show me why you are on my RU list..
64 Post contains images ANCFlyer : So I guess then QR, all those Russian made weapons used by the Hezbollah, the Syrians, and a few other rather nasty bastards don't frackin' count eh?
65 Pbottenb : EK156 - while Im not sure I agree with all your points, I do think that if your post had been the thread starter this entire thread would have been a
66 HAWK21M : I think the Problem is not West v/s the Muslim world.But from out here.its terrorism & Terrorist sponsored countries v/s the Rest of the world. India
67 Aaron747 : Thanks for the ineffectual hyperbole.
68 ANCFlyer : You mean like the one where you refer to Buchanan as a Patriot - almost sounds like you've given him credibility.
69 Kalakaua : The problem is not only with the terrorists, but also with the thwarted civilizations.
70 L-188 : I finally got around to watching Munich this weekend. Frankly I think the israeli's got it right. There is no will in the muslim/arab/persian world to
71 Aloha73G : Just to correct you slightly here. Queen Liliu'okalani was overthrown by some American Businessmen, not by the American Government. At the timem the
72 WesternA318 : It wasnt just that, I used to have Muslim neighbors here. They had a BIG OLE BBQ on 9/11. Well, some friends of mine on the other side of the canyon
73 Toulouse : Have read this thread and am appalled at the amount of rubbish being given by all. I will only respond to the following: QR332, as I'm sure and hope y
74 ME AVN FAN : well, so that if the dog of your neighbour sh... on your house and his nasty boy damages your garden, you go over and try to destroy his house ! how
75 Miamiair : That is the question I would like to see answered by you and QR.
76 Mandala499 : My God! Some of you sound like you've become an extremist on the other side! Equally bad! And that means, OBL has won... he has successfully placed th
77 Post contains links MDorBust : You can say whatever you want. It's the blowing up of people that I don't like. Actions are chosen by a person when they commit the act, not mandated
78 Slider : Well, I can respect that. Like I've said before, I think there are peaceful practioners of Islam, but given the extent, scope and scale of radical Is
79 HAWK21M : True. Thats where "Gandhigiri" Wins.Too bad its a difficult job in todays times. Let all countries vow to stop supporting Terror groups & watch peace
80 ME AVN FAN : Most Arab countries in fact HAVE accepted and inofficially recognized Israel. There are immense contacts between Arab countries and Israel, between A
81 F9Animal : You totally missed my point. If you read the post again, it should make more sense. Good way to evaluate it.... If you stop shooting at me,,,, eventu
82 ME AVN FAN : there is no "shootout" from my side. None at all !
83 Post contains links and images QR332 : Please show me where I said it was fine. Please, ANC, if I haven't said something, don't put words in my mouth - when I say it is perfectly fine, fla
84 CF188A : Something I am going to say ... in light of all this convo No Muslim has a right to persecute, hate, or even condemn another nation due to their reli
85 Post contains images MDorBust : I don't happen to remember the POTUS killing anyone because of what they did or did not believe in or what they said. I also don't remember him killi
86 Post contains images QR332 : But I do remember him causing the invasion of a country under lies and changing the story three or four times, and many civilians dying at the hands
87 Miamiair : Supporting Israel is a crime?
88 QR332 : Weak, very weak, considering the explenation of what I meant that you left out (and you didn't even leave it out properly).
89 Pbottenb : Totally uncool. Im stunned by your statements
90 KSYR : Wrong, as proved earlier in this thread by another user. Except for the hundreds (or thousands?) dancing in the streets in Gaza on 9/11... When was t
91 Post contains links MDorBust : Funny how you hold the president of the United States responsible for the deaths of civilians in Iraq and not the terrorist scum driving car bombs in
92 Pilotaydin : we should never bother to create international understanding...those of us that respect and accept other religions do so, the rest that don't, it's no
93 Kalakaua : You do know that the Arab Islamic civilization is destroying itself outside-in and inside-out, right...?
94 Alessandro : Lebanon had a group that was part of the government that attacked Israel. Pakistan been killing a domestic leader from the western part of the countr
95 Post contains images Superfly : Oh dear. . . . . . ..
96 Mandala499 : Slider, The majority of Muslims are also fed up with these idiots blowing and continues to threaten to blow things up. It peeves us even more when the
97 ME AVN FAN : - The Arab World of course has problems, as many other countries, also. But "destroying itself" is nonsense. Beside the point that you might explain
98 MDorBust : More specifically, I can not do things. Will one mans decision change the world? No, one man will stop a single bombing. Will one billion Muslims dec
99 Windshear : Very well put! Boaz.
100 Mandala499 : MDorBust, On the actions: #1 = Grassroots #2 = Grassroots #3 = Grassroots #4 = More Grassroots than government action #5 = Grassroots #6 = Government
101 Post contains images Allstarflyer : Anyone who would do that deserves the flaming. Yeah, I'd like to see the proof on that one, too. Commie symps. A viable threat-in-the-making. One man
102 Mandala499 : Jerusalem is Jerusalem... it is a city rich in history and religion. Israel was created under the auspices of the international community. That is its
103 ME AVN FAN : what is needed is in a way the famous quadratisation of the circle * East Jerusalem is to be the Capital of the Republic of Palestine * West Jerusale
104 Post contains links L410Turbolet : Islamist movement Hamas defied Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas, insisting a unity government would not recognise Israel and instead proposing a 10
105 Paulc : Only when a priest goes to saudi carrying a bible without it being confiscated and without punishment can Islam be called tolerant. Only when non musl
106 Seb146 : One thing I *try* to keep in mind when I hear of any statements or news coming from the Muslim world is that does not necissarily reflect the views of
107 ME AVN FAN : Sad, but in fact not too surprising. The reaction of the Israelis is the only one possible, as it would be a step back. They HAVE the recognition of
108 Windshear : Yes I heard of a big Mosque built in Rome, funded by Saudi, yet churches are not allowed to be built in Saudi. If we need to see things in perspectiv
109 Post contains images QR332 : Because Saudis are the perfect example of what Arabs are like Hell, most Arabs can't even stand them! They know a lot about it, you'd be surprised ho
110 Mandala499 : WHAT??? The Saudis wanna make a Mosque in Rome? *Shaking my head* As QR332, Not only that most Arabs can't even stand them, many Muslims can't stand t
111 Concordemach2 : Ok, forgive me if I am repeating anything already mentioned but Im short of time and havnt read the whole thread. Firstly I would like to say that Im
112 Post contains images Windshear : No no not MAKING... It is there, built mega structure... (PS I do not care, there can be mosques all over the world, but please understand my point)
113 QR332 : If I did generalise, I never meant to, I know that 300,000,000 people can be very diverse. But, about your comments on Bush - if he is as disliked as
114 Mandala499 : Windshear, Damn! I only heard of it now... I really am worried by the attempts in Saudification if you know what I mean. The Wahabbis are doing everyt
115 ME AVN FAN : their arrogance is NOT the main problem. The main problem is that if you get your new mosque financed by the KSA you have to accept the Imam THEY sen
116 L410Turbolet : Bush will be - thank god - history in two years or so. Blair most likely in even shorter time. I am really curious what excuse-de-jour will those who
117 Mandala499 : M-A-F, That's what I call Saudification at its worst! Mandala499
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