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IDF Commander: 1M+ Cluster Bombs Fired In Lebanon  
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2015 times:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html

What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

In addition, soldiers in IDF artillery units testified that the army used phosphorous shells during the war, widely forbidden by international law. According to their claims, the vast majority of said explosive ordinance was fired in the final 10 days of the war.

...

The use of such weaponry is controversial mainly due to its inaccuracy and ability to wreak great havoc against indeterminate targets over large areas of territory, with a margin of error of as much as 1,200 meters from the intended target to the area hit.

The cluster rounds which don't detonate on impact, believed by the United Nations to be around 40% of those fired by the IDF in Lebanon, remain on the ground as unexploded munitions, effectively littering the landscape with thousands of land mines which will continue to claim victims long after the war has ended.

Because of their high level of failure to detonate, it is believed that there are around 500,000 unexploded munitions on the ground in Lebanon. To date 12 Lebanese civilians have been killed by these mines since the end of the war.


69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2010 times:

I'm sure that there's supposed to be a point here... can you please point it out for us?

I hope your point isn't that Isreal fired deadly things into Lebanon, because that's pretty obvious to anyone not dead in the recent past.


User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2000 times:

The point is that to all those who still defend the "specific targetting of Hezbollah" theory, this is pretty damn clear evidence of how weapons which caused damage on a wide radius, and hence killed indiscriminatley, were used.

And also, the point of the thread is to inform things that you in the US won't see.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1992 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
"specific targetting of Hezbollah"

Or the specific targeting of the IDF by Helbollah rockets???? Perhaps??? Maybe??? Hmmmm???


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7149 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1983 times:

This re-inforces my agreement with the Lebanese Govt.'s decision to warn residents not to return to combat area's immediately after the cease-fire was declared, until military units made the area safe.
Sadly, the case of the children loosing limbs while playing with unexploded ordinance within a couple days of the cease-fire shows the wisdom of such a decision.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1981 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
The point is that to all those who still defend the "specific targetting of Hezbollah" theory, this is pretty damn clear evidence of how weapons which caused damage on a wide radius, and hence killed indiscriminatley, were used.

All weapons kill indiscriminately. It's a point of fact.

Now, perhaps you would try to assert that Israel killed indiscriminately? We will of course require support for that claim. And no, the article doesn't count. Notice a lack of names? No substantiation there.


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13088 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1973 times:

That Israel used such weapons in 'civilian' area makes their already weak moral standpoint even lower over their war against Hezbollah. Fortunately the IDF does have to face strong scrutiny from the Israeli Knesset, the Israeli public and their press to determine if they were immoral in their tactics and actions. Worse is that probably these weapons were supplied from and made in the USA.
Too bad we don't see more Congressional hearings and honesty from the military here in the USA as to our war in Iraq.


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1961 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):

You should know that Cluster bombs are used to take out vehicles... not civilians
your point please...  Yeah sure

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1952 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):
All weapons kill indiscriminately. It's a point of fact.

Now, perhaps you would try to assert that Israel killed indiscriminately?

I'm happy to 'assert' it. The cluster-bomb is specifically designed for anti-personnel applications - and they are also actually designed so that a high proportion of them (up to 40%) do NOT explode when they land. The idea of that is that they fulfil what is quaintly called an 'area denial' or 'interdiction' function - they act as booby-traps and prevent the enemy from occupying ground.

Specifically, a Cluster Bomb Unit consists of a container (shell or bomb) which contains large numbers of bomblets. The Unit is designed to split open in the air and scatter the bomblets. Originally the bomblets were designed to arm themselves as they fell (usually by spinning, so that a trigger was cocked) and to explode when they stopped spinning.

However, more modern versions are designed so that a high proportion (up to 40%) do NOT explode when they land. Instead, a trembler fuse is left cocked. They are then likely to explode as soon as someone treads on them, picks them up, or in fact disturbs them in any way.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/cluster.htm

In my opinion the indiscriminate use of such weapons over populated civilian areas is quite simply a war crime. All soldiers are trained nowadays to recognise and avoid them; cluster munitions, by their nature, are much more likely to hurt or kill civilians.

Coalition forces used them in Iraq during the second week of Gulf War Two; if any one recalls the case of the unfortunate little boy who lost both his arms, that was one of the results. The same thing is now happening in Lebanon:-

"When the guns went silent in Aitta Shaab, a war-ravaged village close to the Israeli border, three children skipped through the rubble looking for a little fun.

"Hurdling over lumps of crushed concrete and dodging spikes of twisted metal, Sukna, Hassan and Merwa, aged 10 to 12, paused before a curious object. Sukna picked it up. The terrifying blast flung her to the ground, thrusting metal shards into her liver. Hassan's abdomen was cut open. Merwa was hit in the leg and arm.

"We thought it was just a little ball," said Hassan with a hoarse whisper in the intensive care ward at Tyre's Jabal Amel hospital. In the next bed Sukna, a ventilator cupped to her mouth and a tangle of tubes from her arms, said even less."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1854715,00.html

In the nature of things children are likely to account for a high proportion of the casualties which will continue to occur. Next in line are probably people trying to clear the rubble of their homes and villages. The deaths and injuries will continue for many years.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1944 times:

Quoting Par13del (Reply 4):
This re-inforces my agreement with the Lebanese Govt.'s decision to warn residents not to return to combat area's immediately after the cease-fire was declared, until military units made the area safe.

This "decision" only was communicated for "insurance purposes". They in the Lebanese government knew precisely well that people wanted to get home, to repair or rebuild their homes, to continue their work, to harvest. They could not wait for a year or two without work and without income and without a real home. They need to repair their homes most urgently to be ready for December with the start of winter.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1936 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
The cluster-bomb is specifically designed for anti-personnel applications

Not true.

Some cluster bombs are anti-personnel. Some are anti-armor, and some are anti-material.

The rest is mostly correct though.

None of that however substantiates that Israel indiscriminately attacked anyone.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
In my opinion the indiscriminate use of such weapons over populated civilian areas is quite simply a war crime

Do we have substantiation that this happened?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
In the nature of things children are likely to account for a high proportion of the casualties which will continue to occur.

Sounds like a parenting issue to me. Unless... it's normal good parenting to let your child play in the location of a recent arty/air strike...


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1922 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):

My G-d you speak only in slogans, and I remember your anti-Israeli sentiment, how do you expect us to take you seriously?

If IDF did something that was not ok, there will be consequences, not so long ago a high ranking military official resigned, many Israelis (including IDF personel) have expressed anger over the handling of the war... I would like to see the final investigation results how ever, before rushing to conclusions like you do.

All I can say, is that the IDF uses cluster bombs and have done so before, as an anti vehicle weapon, not to slaughter civilians as you so insanely claim Israel did.

Oh did people here ever hear that Amnesty called the actions of Hizbollah "war crimes"?? QR did you hear this news?

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1922 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 10):
Do we have substantiation that this happened?

You obviously didn't read the article in the heading, MDorBust:-

"Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets."

That works out at around 500,000 unexploded bomblets, most of which will be lying in areas that had already been reduced to rubble by air attacks and shelling. About one bomblet for every four men, women, and children who normally live in South Lebanon.

Even if you put in huge numbers of sappers tomorrow, how are they going to clear the mines? With so many buildings smashed into ruins, and shell and bomb fragments scattered everywhere, there'll be so much metal around that the metal detectors will be going off all the time. I'm afraid that the majority of those half-million booby-traps are going to be 'found' the hard way.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 10):
Sounds like a parenting issue to me.

I really think you should think more carefully before you make statements like that. Large families (ten or more children) are common among the Shi'tes in South Lebanon. What are parents supposed to do, tell the kids to 'stay in the house'?

For a start, thanks to the Israelis, they probably haven't GOT a house any more.........



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1916 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 12):
You obviously didn't read the article in the heading, MDorBust:-

I read the article completely. No where in the article does it substantiate the claim that these weapons were used on civilians.

We have a claim by an unidentified person (notice this isn't substantiation) that villages were bombarded. If we are to assume that this mystery person is telling the truth and not a disgruntled soldier looking for headlines, do we know that the villages weren't in fact hezzie positions when they were attacked?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 12):
Even if you put in huge numbers of sappers tomorrow, how are they going to clear the mines?

I would start by using an overpressure device.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 12):
What are parents supposed to do, tell the kids to 'stay in the house'?

Sounds like a good idea. Or, failing that, stay away from bombardment areas. Or, failing the first two, don't go near anything unusual. Or, failing the first three, DON'T TOUCH A CLUSTER MUNITION!

Or, as is more likely and has been the case in Africa and the Balkans on occasion... Don't try and collect the munitions to be sold to various interested parties.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 12):
For a start, thanks to the Israelis, they probably haven't GOT a house any more.........

Yes, yes... Lebanon is just one big homeless morass now that Israel is done with it...  sarcastic 


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1912 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 13):
We have a claim by an unidentified person (notice this isn't substantiation) that villages were bombarded.

This is hardly the first time the cluster-bomb problem has been mentioned. If Haaretz doesn't convince you, how about the UN and the International Herald Tribune?

"MAJDAL SELLEM, Lebanon The United Nations on Tuesday urged Israel to hand over more-detailed information about the cluster bombs it fired into Lebanon during the war with Hezbollah, saying at least 350,000 of the unexploded bomblets still pose a deadly risk — and could take more than two years to clear.

"In southern villages like this, demining experts are moving step by step to remove the leftovers from houses, yards and fields. On one recent day, villagers here looked on warily from afar as Tony Wyles, part of a U.N. team, cautiously inspected a small, armed cluster bomb that lay at the foot of a fig tree.

"Every bomb is a challenge, you don't know why it didn't explode ... the slightest movement can trigger it," said Wyles, as he carefully picked up and disarmed the bomblet _a grayish metal cylinder about half the size of a can of soda.

"At least 15 people, including a child, have been killed by cluster bombs in the month since the Aug. 14 cease-fire, the U.N. said Tuesday. Another 83 have been wounded.

"So far, U.N. demining teams have identified 516 cluster bomb strike locations and cleared 17,000 bomblets.

"The task force worries that rains in the coming months will sweep the bomblets downhill to contaminate new areas, or cover them with a thin layer of dirt that will make them invisible.

"The U.N. has harshly criticized Israel for using the cluster bombs, especially in the last hours of the conflict before the cease-fire. The U.S. State Department has said it was investigating whether Israel misused American-made cluster bombs in Lebanon.

"Wyles, who is employed by one of the companies contracted by the U.N., said his team's search around Majdal Sellem was only superficial and focused on removing the most dangerous bombs from houses and gardens.

Another U.N. team would later have to inspect the village and surrounding fields inch by inch.

"I've never seen so many cluster bombs in a civilian area," said Wyles, a 17-year veteran from the British army who said he'd operated in 24 countries."


http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/...a/ME_GEN_Mideast_Cluster_Bombs.php



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1907 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
This is hardly the first time the cluster-bomb problem has been mentioned.

Yet again failing to answer the key point. Is there any support anywhere that Israel used these weapons indiscriminately?

Yes, I know what a cluster munition is. Yes, I know what happens after you use a cluster munition. Yes, I know what can happen if you fail to take the proper precautions around a cluster munition. No, none of that does anything to suggest that Israel wasn't using these weapons against legitimate targets. Remember the hezzies were fighting from positions located within civilian areas. The location of these weapons after fighting does not by itself indicate that Israel was indiscriminate in their use.

You have a choice to make now:
A) Keep endlessly linking stories about the "horrors" of cluster munitions proving nothing other than weapons kill, don't play with them. -or-
B) Substantiate the claim that Israel used them indiscriminately.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1901 times:

Quoting Windshear (Reply 11):
many Israelis (including IDF personel) have expressed anger over the handling of the war..

which is nice whenever it is debatable what aspect of that handling they dislike

Quoting Windshear (Reply 11):
If IDF did something that was not ok, there will be consequences

really ? here I am not so sure. The military leadership will do the investigations and will do whatever to cover any shortcomings

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 13):
one big homeless morass now that Israel is done with it...

rubbish. Homeless are people who lived in the South-of-Litani Lebanon plus Tyrus plus some southern suburbs of Beirut. It is many people, but you still should not embark into making such senseless statements


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1901 times:

Given that cluster-bombs are designed to scatter, the weapon is 'indiscriminate' by nature, MDorBust.

And if you know anything about artillery you'll know that the initial 'fall of shot' can be anywhere within a 100-yard radius of the aiming-point, or more.

It'll be interesting to see if the Israeli Army can or will provide the sort of information requested by the UN. If and when they do, we'll have more evidence to judge whether the fire was 'indiscriminate' or not:-

"The U.N. humanitarian coordinator for Lebanon, David Shearer said Israel could greatly accelerate the overall clearance effort by handing over the coordinates of where it fired the bombs, but has not done so.

"What we'd like is the number of shells that were fired in, and the actual coordinates, so we can go in and short-circuit what we're doing now and go and find those munitions straight away. But that has not happened yet," Shearer told reporters at a news conference in Beirut."



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1900 times:

Well, I hope everyone in Lebanon thinks twice next time someone try to kidnap Israelis in Israel or shoot rockets at Israel. Or the next "victory" will be
costlier for Lebanon.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1900 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16):
but you still should not embark into making such senseless statements

Of course it was a senseless statement. That's why it has a sarcasm emoticon after it.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
Given that cluster-bombs are designed to scatter, the weapon is 'indiscriminate' by nature, MDorBust.

As I said before. All weapons are indiscriminate. Now, substantiate that the use of the weapon was indescriminate.

And no, that it scatters does not demonstrate so. It scatters within a limited range.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1890 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 19):
All weapons are indiscriminate. Now, substantiate that the use of the weapon was indescriminate.

I suspect that you met yourself coming back with those two sentences, MDorBust.  Smile

In any case, the original Haaretz article covers the point:-

"The rocket unit commander stated that Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) platforms were heavily used in spite of the fact that they were known to be highly inaccurate.

"MLRS is a track or tire carried mobile rocket launching platform, capable of firing a very high volume of mostly unguided munitions. The basic rocket fired by the platform is unguided and imprecise, with a range of about 32 kilometers. The rockets are designed to burst into sub-munitions at a planned altitude in order to blanket enemy army and personnel on the ground with smaller explosive rounds.

"The use of such weaponry is controversial mainly due to its inaccuracy and ability to wreak great havoc against indeterminate targets over large areas of territory, with a margin of error of as much as 1,200 meters from the intended target to the area hit."


I've no experience of MLRS. But a 1,200-metre radius of error sounds pretty 'indiscriminate' to me.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1878 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):
I suspect that you met yourself coming back with those two sentences, MDorBust.

No, it's a significant difference.

Let me explain for you. Discrimination requires intelligence. Weapons do not have intelligence, therefore they can not discriminate. A cluster bomb discriminates as much as a pistol, cruise missile, of LGB. A weapon can be used with discrimination or not. A person who walks into a building and starts firing randomly is indiscriminately shooting. A person who shoots only the armed suspect is using discrimination. Israel shelling hezzie positions is using discrimination. Israel shelling anything in range is being indiscriminate.

Please tell me you've finally caught on.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):
In any case, the original Haaretz article covers the point:-

The article doesn't do anything. Remember that whole part about substantiation? Who exactly is making this claim? Mr. Nameless no one. That's who.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):
I've no experience of MLRS. But a 1,200-metre radius of error sounds pretty 'indiscriminate' to me.

Maybe the craptastic soviet systems employed by other nations have that margin of error. The M270 system used by Israel is much more accurate.

A six rocket barrage from a M270 system occupies a footprint 200m x 300m


User currently offlineAA777 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 2544 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1873 times:
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Quoting Windshear (Reply 7):

You should know that Cluster bombs are used to take out vehicles... not civilians
your point please.

Who the hell is it that DRIVES vehicles??? PEOPLE. Last time I checked, people- CIVILIANS- drive cars. The vast majority of people driving around are not militiants. Yet it is those civilains who will die as a result of land mines. I have not heard of this, and this is truly sickening.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 3):
Or the specific targeting of the IDF by Helbollah rockets???? Perhaps??? Maybe??? Hmmmm???

Honestly I dont get you... do you really believe that nothing matters except who 'shot first'? Everything after that has been determined is justified. Nuke 'em, they shot first. It is possible that your whole world is that far contained in the world of the army, and that much more removed from humanity? Sad. But then again you supported the invasion, so, why wouldnt you support Lebanon being littered with Israeli landmines. Who cares right? It will never ever affect you. Its just some Lebanese person who is walking around in the hills one day and will take a wrong step. Boom. There goes a dad. Boom, there goes a Mom, a sister, a brother, a child, an aunt, an uncle, a wife, a husband. Boom. Who cares.

-AA777


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1865 times:

Quoting Windshear (Reply 7):
You should know that Cluster bombs are used to take out vehicles... not civilians

vehicles ? Remotely-guided manless vehicles only ?


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17446 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1863 times:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 2):
And also, the point of the thread is to inform things that you in the US won't see.

Show of hands for those who did not know Hezbollah (who SHOULDNT BE ARMED IN THE FIRST PLACE) purposely located itself in civilian areas.....anyone? Anyone?



E pur si muove -Galileo
25 Windshear : Oh ok not surprised to hear this, but you should really have more faith in Israel than you have. You are too entangled with thinking negatively and l
26 LTBEWR : Let us also not forget that Hezbollah sent missiles indiscriminately into Israel, mainly killing a number of civilians and a small number of Israeli t
27 AA777 : That is one explanation. But now the war is 'over' and Lebanon is left with a gift that keeps on giving- Landmines that continue to kill civilians. T
28 MDorBust : They could always call the Israeli's in to clean them up, they are one of the worlds foremost experts on EOD after all.
29 Cfalk : Does Hezbollah face the same scrutiny for its indiscriminate attacks on civilians? I think not. To be quite honest, yes. Israel would have been smart
30 Windshear : First of all I need to be clear about one thing... When writing "landmines", you actually mean undetonated cluster bombs, right? If yes, then no it i
31 Post contains images Rammstein : Let's send IDF back to clean their mess...
32 ME AVN FAN : writing in capital-letters is unnecessary. they were armed at a time when Lebanon was powerless, and they were armed by Iran via Syria quite heavily
33 FOMEA : Excellent Point. I am Sure some on this site and (in this thread) will be glad to help. Regards F-OMEA.[Edited 2006-09-19 22:51:36]
34 Rolfen : Cluster bombs are not "precision weapons", neither are phosphore bombs. Phosphore bombs will spray the area around them with phosphore, which will bu
35 ANCFlyer : And I don't get you . . . a comprehension problem perhaps . . . Let me make it a tad clearer . . . Firstly, neither side was very careful in what the
36 L-188 : And the fact that most of those Katuysha rockets where submunition armed.
37 ME AVN FAN : those rockets were NOT fired by a regular army, and that firing was NOT authorized by the government. While the Israeli actions WERE authorized and e
38 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Irrelevent. Authorized by the Lebanese Gov't, perhaps not overtly. Condoned, I think likely. Of course, we've had this conversation before . . . to n
39 Post contains links AndesSMF : You sure? This report indicates that the Lebanese goverment was told about the kidnapping prior, and were assured by Hez that no retaliation would co
40 ME AVN FAN : Neither authorized nor condoned. But the government could not prevent it Nasrullah told the government just shortly before his folks did it, and he d
41 Cfalk : They were fired by a private Army which the Lebanese government did nothing to stop. If a private militia formed in the US, bought some weapons and s
42 ANCFlyer : Like I said, we've had this conversation before - to no end. We disagree. The government shouldn't have let a terrorist organization into their midst
43 ME AVN FAN : basically true, except that the Lebanese government never allowed them into the country. They simply were in at the end of the civil war. The governm
44 MDorBust : Neither is a 1000lb laser guided bomb. If you care to argue the point may I suggest thinking about what would happen to a person standing twenty feet
45 Miamiair : Like the rockets Hezbollah fired into Israel?
46 ME AVN FAN : - exactly like those, but Mr Nasrullah in at least this point was honest as he never claimed that his rockets were precise
47 AA777 : Frankly.... what is "BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS" is that Hezbollah didnt leave the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of land mines laying around Israeli la
48 MDorBust : You write this as if the hezzies made the choice not to do so based on some moral superiority. Answer this: Given the technological and logistical ca
49 Baroque : I admire Nav20's patience and clarity in setting out an issue. I find some of the responses to the thread starter and to Nav so callous and appalling
50 NAV20 : Always interested in that sort of viewpoint. How were the Lebanese government supposed to stop Hezbollah? After all, a full one-third of the US Army'
51 ANCFlyer : NAV20, go review previous threads on Lebanon and Hezbollah and Israel - you'll get your answer there. I don't care to retake old terrain by repeating
52 Cfalk : Whatever means necessary. Call in the UN, NATO, someone... The problem is not the capabilities of the Army. The problem is the limitations placed on
53 Rolfen : Yeah you're right Israel had every right to shoot all this into Lebanon.
54 NAV20 : Indeed, Cfalk? Where was that sort of thing done? When I was a kid, I had several relatives on both sides of the Atlantic who'd served in the liberat
55 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Show me where I said that? What I said was - NEITHER side was very careful about their targets . . . quit playing the victim . . .
56 Rolfen : ok, sorry the misunderstanding then. I personally hate the Hezbollah for bringing this destruction on Lebanon, and most of all, for putting the fear
57 Cfalk : The US did it at least twice. The British did it at least once. The French did it several times, as did the Russians. Remember that there were SS tro
58 Blrsea : When Israel fired them during the end of the war, most of the civilians had already left their villages, so the only people left there were the hizbol
59 Raffik : Oh well , atleast they've got something nice to come back to, eh? The IDF is a military target; littering South Lebanon villages and towns with clust
60 Post contains links AA777 : The use of cluster bombs is hotly opposed by many individuals and groups, such as the Red Cross, the Cluster Munition Coalition and the United Nation
61 QANTAS077 : best piece of garbage you've posted! UN, NATO, US & coalition can't even take care of a few thousand half ass mountain boys...i'd love to see them ta
62 Post contains images MDorBust : No, they are not effectively the same thing as a land mine. A land mine is a weapon that is intentionally concealed and triggered by pressure, vibrat
63 Post contains links AA777 : Your whole little analysis doesnt really convince me of anything. To me, a rifile and a shotgun are the same thing. They are both guns. They both kil
64 Cfalk : I know that. But at least ASKING would put the Lebanese government on record as trying to rid itself of Hezbollah. Had it done so, I'm sure the Israe
65 ME AVN FAN : the Lebanese government since spring 06 was in serious negotiations with Hizbullah to have them give up their positions along the Israeli border. Hiz
66 Post contains links MDorBust : And that sir, ends any input you might have to offer this thread. I'm not justifying anything. If you actually bother to read my posts in this thread
67 AA777 : Oh jeez. So people are supposed to live in areas that are littered with these things and they are supposed to never come in contact with them? When t
68 AirxLiban : Well - if my understanding of cluster bombs is correct, they are somewhat well suited to Israel's mission in South Lebanon, which in large part was to
69 MDorBust : I believe I have already given two options in this thread for clean up. And no, I don't believe it's a very bright idea to move back into any area wh
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