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Pope Meets With Muslim Leaders  
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1666 times:

I had intended to post this in Cedars thread on the Pope's invitation, but perhaps it merits it's own thread. . . .

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/25/pope.muslims/index.html


The pope told the envoys that "our future" depends on dialogue between Christians and Muslims.

Attending the meeting were representatives from Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Turkey and Morocco -- as well as members of Italy's Muslim community. Also presents wer ediplomats from Indonesia, where Christian-Muslim tensions were further heightened last week by the execution of three Catholic militants.

Benedict last month had appealed for the men's lives to be spared. (Full story)

Iraq's envoy to Vatican said after Monday's meeting with Benedict that "it is now time to put what happened behind (us) and build bridges," The Associated Press reported.

"The Holy Father stated his profound respect for Islam. This is what we were expecting," said Iraqi envoy Albert Edward Ismail Yelda.


58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 1645 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Thread starter):

and here the same news but from
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/EB439435-E5EE-4D32-AF
-
*****************************************************
Pope Benedict XVI has met Muslim diplomats in Rome as part of the Catholic church's latest effort to mend relations with the Islamic world.
---
In an audience aimed at defusing anger over his recent speech, which was widely perceived to have depicted Islam as violent, Pope Benedict told Muslim envoys on Monday that Christian and Muslim believers must reject all forms of violence. He expressed his "esteem and profound respect" for members of the Islamic faith.
---
Diplomatic envoys from 22 Muslim countries plus the leaders of Italy's own Muslim community met the pontiff at his summer residence in Castelgandolfo.
--
Federico Lombardi, Benedict's spokesman, said the meeting was "certainly a sign that dialogue is returning to normal after moments of ... misunderstanding."
--
The meeting was to address widespread Muslim anger at a speech the pope made on 12 September, when he quoted the words of a Byzantine emperor who said some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad were "evil and inhuman," particularly "his command to spread by the sword the faith." Benedict said that his remarks were taken out of context and that he regretted that Muslims were offended.
--
****************************************************
-
Looks as if things improve again


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 1642 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 1):
Looks as if things improve again

Sure, as long as we all ignore the outburst of violence that invariably seems to follow every instance of Islam being "insulted" or "denigrated."

Somehow, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to erase the mental picture of all those "death to the Pope" signs I saw on TV from people who claim to be insulted because the Pope - in their eyes - accused Islam of being a violent religion.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 1637 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 2):
I'm not sure I'll ever be able to erase the mental picture

you simply OUGHT to "erase" that picture, as you otherwise in a way land up in the same trap as many of those who demonstrated and enjoyed to feel insulted .... sorry suffered from feeling insulted .............


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 1637 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 2):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 1):
Looks as if things improve again

Sure, as long as we all ignore the outburst of violence that invariably seems to follow every instance of Islam being "insulted" or "denigrated."

Amen to that. It's one thing to say "hey, I don't agree with that. I think we need clarification or an apology." It's another to say "Death To The Pope!", and go out and become violent over it.

Islam still has to come out of its own Dark Ages here, before it can maturely deal with the rest of the world. It hasn't shown the ability to do that so far.

Either way, the dialogue is certainly not a negative thing. Maybe the Muslim Clerics need to tell their flocks that there's one way for the world to be convinced that Islam isn't a voilent religion-and that's by abstaining from such violence.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 1626 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
"Death To The Pope!", and go out and become violent over it.

Islam still has to come out of its own Dark Ages here,

you here embark on generalisations. To jump from some people who got extreme to think they were the majority is inappropriate and incorrect. And this time, matters remained peaceful in most places of the world except Palestine and one case in Somalia. But what NEEDED to get calmed down were the widespread emotions.


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1600 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 3):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 2):
I'm not sure I'll ever be able to erase the mental picture

you simply OUGHT to "erase" that picture, as you otherwise in a way land up in the same trap as many of those who demonstrated and enjoyed to feel insulted .... sorry suffered from feeling insulted .............

Perhaps if the scene was an occasional one, it would be easier to disregard.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1595 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 6):
the scene was an occasional one

it was an occasional one. There were the cartoons and now that speech. Most occasional indeed.


User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1586 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 7):
it was an occasional one. There were the cartoons and now that speech. Most occasional indeed.

 rotfl 




-NWA742


User currently offlineUsnseallt82 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 4891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1584 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 7):
it was an occasional one. There were the cartoons and now that speech. Most occasional indeed.

Do you really think this?





 crazy  crazy  crazy 



Crye me a river
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1573 times:

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 9):
it was an occasional one. There were the cartoons and now that speech. Most occasional indeed.

Do you really think this?

Yes of course. You can hardly describe two such affairs as a "mass-habit" .


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1571 times:

Good Move.It takes courage to do that.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineUsnseallt82 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 4891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1564 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 10):
You can hardly describe two such affairs as a "mass-habit"

Riiiight......so a lifetime of protesting the West with death threats and burning flags wouldn't be considered a "mass-habit?"



Crye me a river
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1555 times:

Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 12):
a lifetime of protesting the West with death threats and burning flags

"a lifetime of protesting .... death threats" ? you refer to earlier isolated incidents, which did occur, but NOT in many places at the same time, and therefore are NOT mass-habits


User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1552 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
therefore are NOT mass-habits






-NWA742


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1543 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 5):
you here embark on generalisations. To jump from some people who got extreme to think they were the majority is inappropriate and incorrect.

Show me where I said it was a majority? Show me? But come on! You make it sound like a tiny isolated thing, which it was definitely not. There were protests all over the Islamic world, and many of them got violent or carried out violence-all to prove Islam isn't violent. Uh, OK.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 7):
it was an occasional one. There were the cartoons and now that speech. Most occasional indeed.

Whatever. You cannot argue with an apologists for these people, which you've constantly shown yourself to be, MAF.

This stuff happens all the time in the region; be it to protest Israel, or the U.S., or "the follower of the cross", or any reason that seems useful at the moment.

Take the blinders off.


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2334 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1532 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
"a lifetime of protesting .... death threats" ? you refer to earlier isolated incidents, which did occur, but NOT in many places at the same time, and therefore are NOT mass-habits

Gotta love the logic of an eternal apologist... Big grin

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1526 times:

The real question is whether Pope's invitation is perceived by the Muslims as a sign of good will or a sign of his weakness and surrender to their screams and burning of effigies?

User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1526 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
you refer to earlier isolated incidents, which did occur, but NOT in many places at the same time, and therefore are NOT mass-habits

The fact that they are separated by a few months doesn't change the fact that every time there is a perceived slight to Islam, mass protests erupt across the Muslim world. This is consistent behaviour demonstrated over many years.

The fact is, there is only one major world religion that this behaviour is endemic to, and while I don't argue that its a small percentage of the overall population that participate in these protests, the protests none the less occur. There is a saying that 'Perception is Reality', and in this case the perception is that the Muslim world reacts, always with threats and frequently with violence, to any criticism. Until the apologists quit distancing themselves from the actions of those using the name of Islam, the perception will remain.



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1506 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 17):
The real question is whether Pope's invitation is perceived by the Muslims as a sign of good will or a sign of his weakness and surrender to their screams and burning of effigies?

Good point, I think by granting these folks an audience, it just goes to show that thier childish fits actually accomplish things. I work all day with kids, I learned a long time ago that bending to a child when they act this way accomplishes little, but it does reinforce that bad behavior because it justifies those actions. The Pope should have just said I am sorry, despite not intending to offend the muslim people, I did. That was not what I meant, I am sorry. There, done, end of story. Now... I can see sometimes why protests erupt, Abu Graib.... sure burn down your own neighborhood and some effigees that look like a retarded 8 year old put together, thats fine, but to freak out over some cartoons or what ever someone says, well thats childish.
I am begining to think there are some major self-inadequatcy issues among the 14-40 muslim male age group.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1501 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 19):
The Pope should have just said I am sorry

but bother to read my entire speech

and/or

but your violent reaction, murders and threats indeed proved Manuel II Paleologus to be correct in his observations


User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2334 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1497 times:

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 19):
I am begining to think there are some major self-inadequatcy issues among the 14-40 muslim male age group.

There are, I would say "father figure" issues. Great wrath and inferiority complex' all together in one big bowl.

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1484 times:

I'm glad the Holy Father had this meeting, but I don't honestly see what he has to apologize for: he is, after all, in this sect of the Christian world, the "defender of the faith" if you will. In the minds of Christians, there is a lot of respect for the other peoples' of The Book, but we also believe that neither is correct in their overall teachings-just as they feel the same way as well.

I don't see anyone calling for apologies of Muslims who have labled Christians and Jews "infidels", even though we, in essence, are not; I don't see any violence breaking out when militant groups tell the Pope he is doomed, or are screaming "Death To The Pope!".

Seems to me, honestly, that many in the Islamic world are over sensitive either 1. because they have thin-skins, or 2. because they ARE looking for some reason to wreak some havoc.

And if the Islamic world doesn't like the fact that Christians and Jews don't think Mohammed was the great Prophet, well, that's just the way it is. I don't think he was the great Prophet. I believe Jesus was, and also was the Son of God. But you won't see the Christian world go ape if someone in the Islamic world says that.


User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 859 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1480 times:

Freedom of speach is something that will never ever happend in the muslim world, add democracy..

They´re stuck in the dark ages w/ mufti´s imams ayatollo´s ruling their country.

 twocents 

Micke//  frown 



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1477 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 22):
I'm glad the Holy Father had this meeting, but I don't honestly see what he has to apologize for:

And I honestly think he didn't invite them to apologize for what he said.
It would be entirely wrong to consider the Pope's offer a sign of "weakness".

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 3):
you simply OUGHT to "erase" that picture, as you otherwise in a way land up in the same trap as many of those who demonstrated and enjoyed to feel insulted .... sorry suffered from feeling insulted .............

In this case I agree with you.



I support the right to arm bears
25 Post contains images Halls120 : I forget - how long did Salman Rushdie live under a fatwa?
26 Falcon84 : Isn't he still under it? You'll have to forgive MAF, Halls. After all, he still thinks that Syria (snicker) is one of the great cogs in the fight AGA
27 NoUFO : No, the fatwa against him was lifted, but some bigots are still after him, which is why his whereabouts are still confidential. Effectively, nothing
28 ME AVN FAN : no idea. It was just an Iranian affair of no relevance elsewhere, so what.
29 Falcon84 : An Iranian affair in trying to murder someone on the soil of another nation. Yeah, so what. You are incredible in your blindness towards such people.
30 ME AVN FAN : Whatever, an affair concerning Iran and the U.K., but of no relevance to the Arab World.
31 Falcon84 : And there is where you completly miss the point: this is a great example of how the Arab/Islamic world is operating these days: someone says somethin
32 ME AVN FAN : NO, it has nothing to do with the Arab World at all. It is something just between Iran and Britain
33 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Don't tell me you are surprised? It's the same guy who claimed the attacks on Danish embassies were nothing serious becuase the buildings were not bu
34 Searpqx : No, it was a Fatwa, issued because the book was blasphemous against Islam. The fact that it was issued in Iran doesn't change the fact that it was do
35 Post contains images Windshear : Well it does matter to an apologist Boaz.
36 Jaysit : At these meetings, people of all faiths should remember these four fundamental religious truths: 1. Muslims do not recognize Jews as God's chosen peop
37 Post contains images Halls120 : Excellent point. Can't wait to see the response to this one.
38 ME AVN FAN : a Fatwa is a religious declaration, only valid in the country where it was issued, and for the nationals of that particular country, not for all of I
39 Post contains links Searpqx : All well and good, but none the less, the Ayatollah issued the Fatwa in the name of Islam, not in the name of Iran. Or are you saying that the religi
40 Post contains images ANCFlyer : Seems to me someone fucked up that "Iran Only" fatwah, eh?
41 ME AVN FAN : illegal, he canNOT do such things in the name of Islam as his Fatwa > A) is only valid in Iran and for Iranians > B) is NOT valid for Sunnis, only re
42 ANCFlyer : Doesn't explain this now does it . . .
44 ME AVN FAN : Well, there WERE some ugly incidents, but "violence around the world" is an immense exaggeration. And the assassination attempts possibly were organi
46 Halls120 : Freedom in the middle east? A relative term, it seems. Here's how the BBC ranks the middle east, with 10 being the most free, and 1 the least free: I
47 ME AVN FAN : not rosy, no really not. But improving. - And now to that list : - * strange that Iraq (!) figures above countries like Jordan and Egypt and Algeria
48 AirPacific747 : That's because Iraq has been invaded by Western countries? Also you probably look at freemdom as a different thing than we do. That might explain why
49 ME AVN FAN : I am NOT confused about it, I regard that study as absolute gross nonsense.
50 AirPacific747 : Well that leads back to my point anyway
51 ME AVN FAN : ok, ok, ok, enjoy your point as long as you wish, if that gives you the desired self-satisfaction - but spare me that rubbish of that BBC-"study". If
52 Post contains images Halls120 : Well, let's see. On one hand, we have the BBC and The Freedom House. On the other hand, we have Me Avn Fan. I'll let the audience decide who has more
53 ME AVN FAN : while it in reality simply was SOMEBODY there ! Of course, if you manage to get your stuff into a renowned institution you are believed, as you then
54 Searpqx : Otherwise, excuses from an eternal apologist? Listen MAF, you've got a good head on your shoulders, but its obvious that you will never agree that Is
55 Windshear : Wow these numbers are low! Look at UAE, just after Saudi, now was it wrong again to compare the two?? And what is up with Syria, I thought they were
56 Post contains images ME AVN FAN : Syria is a dictatorship, true, but in comparison to Saudi Arabia, Syria is a fortress of freedom and liberalism. The UAE in many ways may be conserva
57 ANCFlyer : Care to share an example with us? I'd be curious to see what you think - by the numbers.
58 ME AVN FAN : ok, here we go : - INDEX OF POLITICAL FREEDOM - Lebanon: 8.20 Israel: 8.20 Algeria: 7.00 Egypt: 6.80 Morocco: 6.20 Jordan: 6.20 Kuwait: 4.90 Tunisia:
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